[nabs-l] draft 2 - complete section with amendment
Jorge Paez
computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com
Sun Jun 19 19:05:49 UTC 2011
Elizabeth:
I agree.
I was there for the voting last year and liked the idea. May I ask why we're changing to cards though?
On Jun 19, 2011, at 1:47 PM, Elizabeth wrote:
> I really liked the voting system we used last year. I really don't think it took that much longer to complete when compared to a standing vote. And I am glad to see that you will be using the same system again this year.
>
> Elizabeth
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Darian Smith" <dsmithnfb at gmail.com>
> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 1:30 PM
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] draft 2 - complete section with amendment
>
>> I believe the "card system" in question was the one where individuals
>> recieve a single vote card upon payment of their dues. The person
>> in possession of said card will raise that card in the air for a
>> sighted counter to see, but only in the case of a standing vote.
>> The card ballot system that nabs used last year (it was actually
>> playing chips last year, but will be cards this year) used
>> "runners" to gather the ballot for a particular person running in an
>> election and put it into a bucket ( example: if you are voting
>> for Bob, you would put that ballot into the first bucket in
>> circulation. Once all of those ballots are collected, all persons
>> who wish to vote for the second person "john", will but their ballot
>> into the second bucket. once all ballots are collected, counting
>> begins and the winner announced after counting has been completed.)
>> This system was put in place so we, as the blind can empower
>> ourselves to run our own elections. While it may take a little
>> longer than asking someone sighted to count standing votes, I
>> personally find this system no different than any of us as
>> individuals utilizing an alternitive technique to get a particular
>> task done.
>>
>>
>> On 6/19/11, Peter Donahue <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com> wrote:
>>> Hello everyone,
>>>
>>> The vast majority of our local chapters and affiliates conduct fare
>>> elections without resorting to junk like this. Angela Wolfe cautioned NABS
>>> on the use of cards in 2009. I know because I was there and have the
>>> recording of her remarks. It's on the NABS Web Site for all to hear. Every
>>> time I've heard a card/ballot system of this kind tried it does nothing but
>>> slow down the election process and make the procedure cumbersome and more of
>>> a hassle than need be. If you want your elections to run more smoothly get
>>> rid of the cards and use the good old voice vote system like our other
>>> affiliates use. There's little if any concern about individuals voting when
>>> they shouldn't. Stick with what works and quit trying to reinvent the wheel.
>>>
>>> Our national constitution got us this far so why monkey with something
>>> that works and has proven its weight in gold? You have more important things
>>> to do than to implement ridiculous election procedures and monkeying with
>>> your constitution every time you turn around. JMO.
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <nabs.president at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 10:50 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] draft 2 - complete section with amendment
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi George,
>>> That's a good question. When people come to the NABS business meeting
>>> and pay their dues, they are given a set of ballots. Only people who
>>> stop by the registration table and give our treasurer their $5 get
>>> ballots. I think this is a pretty good way of ensuring that only paid
>>> members vote.
>>> Sure, we can allow people to pay throughout the year and create a
>>> tracking system. I think that is a good idea. However, once they've
>>> paid, if they want to vote online, how do we prove they've paid
>>> beforehand?
>>> It might work if people pay their $5 online right before the election.
>>> But even then, I worry about hackers and other fancy computer gimmicks
>>> that might game the system.
>>> Arielle
>>>
>>> On 6/19/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Arielle:
>>>> With all due respect,
>>>> how would we be able to identify current members without any problem?
>>>>
>>>> That is to say,
>>>> do we keep some kind of database of who is *currently* on NABS?
>>>> The reason I'm asking is because I don't see how NABS keeps track of
>>>> current
>>>> membership to begin with, let alone new members.
>>>>
>>>> Are you saying you're opposed to such an amendment because it would mean
>>>> creating a tracking system for the entire membership?
>>>>
>>>> And if so, wouldn't this help NABS in the long run?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Jorge
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 19, 2011, at 1:52 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Excellent point, Kurt. I have heard of cases at state conventions
>>>>> where candidates brought all their friends who were not NFB members
>>>>> on the day of the election to pay their dues and vote in person. Sure,
>>>>> this could happen at a national convention, but it seems less likely,
>>>>> and much more likely if absentee voting were allowed. The problem
>>>>> could be minimized by requiring payment of dues a month or so in
>>>>> advance of the election. But even then, how could we verify payment
>>>>> status virtually? The U.S. government allows mail-in voting, but in
>>>>> that case candidates are clearly identified in advance. In short, even
>>>>> if this amendment were permissible and philosophically desirable, our
>>>>> election procedures, from nomination of candidates to membership
>>>>> verification, would have to be radically modified. I'm not opposed to
>>>>> change, but I question whether the dramatic investment of effort
>>>>> required is worth the benefit of allowing a few more people to vote.
>>>>> As Darian emphasized, there are many, many other ways we can be using
>>>>> our energy and exercising our membership rights.
>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/18/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Jorge,
>>>>>> You're putting this out in the open for public scrutiny so I'm going
>>>>>> to be honest. I really, really don't like the idea-it opens up all
>>>>>> sorts of cans of worms that don't seem right to me. Consider the
>>>>>> following.
>>>>>> We probably won't know all the candidates in the election *until*
>>>>>> the actual business meeting. There could be someone who, for whatever
>>>>>> reason, hasn't announced their candidacy for office on the list. I
>>>>>> think it's only fair that anyone who's even considering voting in the
>>>>>> election knows who all candidates are and has the opportunity to
>>>>>> listen to each introduction speech (even if it's only 30 seconds
>>>>>> long), before they cast their ballot. That's only fair to all the
>>>>>> candidates involved. I would consider supporting an idea that allows
>>>>>> those due-paying members in virtual attendance (through an official
>>>>>> NABS skype call or the like) the opportunity to vote. Beyond that, I
>>>>>> don't think you have much of a case.
>>>>>> Also, think about this. Let's say you, hypothetically, were running
>>>>>> for NABS president. You get a bunch of your blind friends who aren't
>>>>>> going to convention, who may or may not want anything to do with the
>>>>>> Federation, and have them pay $5 so they're voting members. I'm not
>>>>>> saying you'd do such a thing, I'm just saying you're leaving that kind
>>>>>> of possibility open. No matter how secure the voting method is, that
>>>>>> makes this something that could happen. Do other organizations open
>>>>>> that door? Sure. Should we? I say no.
>>>>>> But the spirit behind the idea isn't bad. I think, personally, if
>>>>>> we could ensure some sort of secure method for virtual attendance at
>>>>>> the meeting for those due-paying members who can't make convention,
>>>>>> I'd be all for allowing them to vote. Maybe set up a shoutcast server
>>>>>> streaming the meeting, and only give the password to those due-paying
>>>>>> members who request it? Make a conference call and only give the
>>>>>> calling info/access code for those due-paying members who ask for it?
>>>>>> If we instituted a system like that, I don't see why we couldn't allow
>>>>>> that sort of absentee voting, but only for those who are in virtual
>>>>>> attendance at the NABS business meeting and not for anyone else. Am I
>>>>>> making any sense? Is that a possibility?
>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/18/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Arielle:
>>>>>>> Not exactly,
>>>>>>> I'm going to continue to edit the amendment myself and should be able
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> submit it before July second.
>>>>>>> I posted this version so that people could see my amendment in light of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> entire section.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jun 18, 2011, at 7:59 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jorge,
>>>>>>>> Is this the final version you would like read at the NABS meeting this
>>>>>>>> year? Or, would you like to wait until 2012 when you will be at
>>>>>>>> convention yourself and can present and defend it?
>>>>>>>> If you want it read in 2011 and you will not be at convention, you
>>>>>>>> will need to find someone else who will be there to read and defend
>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 6/17/11, Joseph C. Lininger <jbahm at pcdesk.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> George,
>>>>>>>>> I hate to be a killjoy on you, but you're probably wasting your time
>>>>>>>>> with this. The organization isn't going to change this particular
>>>>>>>>> policy, no matter how many people would like to see it happen. For
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> record, I'm with you on this one, but I'm also no longer a
>>>>>>>>> federationest
>>>>>>>>> and haven't been for some years now. Too many differences of opinion.
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> "All models are wrong, but some are useful." George E. P. Box
>>>>>>>>> Joseph C. Lininger, <jbahm at pcdesk.net>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>> Phone: 602-502-2255
>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>> Phone: 602-502-2255
>>>>> Email:
>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>> Website:
>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Arielle Silverman
>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>> Phone: 602-502-2255
>>> Email:
>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>> Website:
>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>
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>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Darian Smith
>>
>> “My secret? See it, and stay focused on it.”
>>
>> — Shaquille O'Neal
>>
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>
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