[nabs-l] draft 2 - complete section with amendment

Mon Jun 20 01:32:11 UTC 2011

Kirt,

I agree with you.  It's just an idea that they do that I think 
may make things easier for us.  Don't get philosophy into stuff 
where philosophy isn't meant to be debated.

 Chris

"A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto)
To learn more about Camp Abilities and find a local camp near 
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 Sent from my BrailleNote

 ----- Original Message -----
From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 11:41:45 -0600
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] draft 2 - complete section with amendment

Chris,
  At the risk of offending my good friends in the Council, I'll 
say
there's a reason the Federation gets more done and leave it at 
that.
  Best,
Kirt

On 6/19/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
 Peter,
   Reinventing the wheel is sometimes good.  If we hadn't 
reinvented
 the wheel, black people wouldn't be voting.  If we hadn't 
reinvented
 the wheel, the NFB wouldn't be around.  Without us reinventing 
the
 wheel, there would be no blind driver challenge, whatever your
 personal opinion a bout that may be.  I say sometimes the wheel 
needs
 to be reinvented-even perfectly good systems can be made better.  
A
 counting procedure is better than a voice vote, IMHO, at least 
for a
 devision the size of NABS.  I wouldn't say it would be better 
for the
 NFB as a whole but hey, aren't devisions acorded to run their
 elections the way that works best for them?
   Best,
 Kirt

 On 6/19/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
 Jorge,
   I admit our current system is *not* fool proof.  A non-member 
can
 come to national convention, pay the dues, register to vote, and
 influence the election.  But, in a funny way, I'd rather have 
that
 kind of non-member, who is willing to put in the week of time, 
make
 the illegal vote over the non-member you can just give $5 to so 
they
 can register and become a member online.
   Just my thoughts,
 Kirt

 On 6/19/11, Peter Donahue <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com> wrote:
 Hello everyone,

     The vast majority of our local chapters and affiliates 
conduct fare
 elections without resorting to junk like this.  Angela Wolfe 
cautioned
 NABS
 on the use of cards in 2009.  I know because I was there and 
have the
 recording of her remarks.  It's on the NABS Web Site for all to 
hear.
 Every
 time I've heard a card/ballot system of this kind tried it does 
nothing
 but
 slow down the election process and make the procedure cumbersome 
and
 more
 of
 a hassle than need be.  If you want your elections to run more 
smoothly
 get
 rid of the cards and use the good old voice vote system like our 
other
 affiliates use.  There's little if any concern about individuals 
voting
 when
 they shouldn't.  Stick with what works and quit trying to 
reinvent the
 wheel.

     Our national constitution got us this far so why monkey with
 something
 that works and has proven its weight in gold? You have more 
important
 things
 to do than to implement ridiculous election procedures and 
monkeying
 with
 your constitution every time you turn around.  JMO.

 Peter Donahue

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Arielle Silverman" <nabs.president at gmail.com
 To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
 <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
 Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 10:50 AM
 Subject: Re: [nabs-l] draft 2 - complete section with amendment

 Hi George,
 That's a good question.  When people come to the NABS business 
meeting
 and  pay their dues, they are given a set of ballots.  Only 
people who
 stop by the registration table and give our treasurer their $5 
get
 ballots.  I think this is a pretty good way of ensuring that 
only paid
 members vote.
 Sure, we can allow people to pay throughout the year and create 
a
 tracking system.  I think that is a good idea.  However, once 
they've
 paid, if they want to vote online, how do we prove they've paid
 beforehand?
 It might work if people pay their $5 online right before the 
election.
 But even then, I worry about hackers and other fancy computer 
gimmicks
 that might game the system.
 Arielle

 On 6/19/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
 Arielle:
 With all due respect,
 how would we be able to identify current members without any 
problem?

 That is to say,
 do we keep some kind of database of who is *currently* on NABS?
 The reason I'm asking is because I don't see how NABS keeps 
track of
 current
 membership to begin with,  let alone new members.

 Are you saying you're opposed to such an amendment because it 
would
 mean
 creating a tracking system for the entire membership?

 And if so, wouldn't this help NABS in the long run?

 Thanks,

 Jorge

 On Jun 19, 2011, at 1:52 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:

 Excellent point, Kurt.  I have heard of cases at state 
conventions
 where candidates brought all  their friends who were not NFB 
members
 on the day of the election to pay their dues and vote in person.  
Sure,
 this could happen at a national convention, but it seems less 
likely,
 and much more likely if absentee voting were allowed.  The 
problem
 could be minimized by requiring payment of dues a month or so in
 advance of the election.  But even then, how could we verify 
payment
 status virtually? The U.S.  government allows mail-in voting, 
but in
 that case candidates are clearly identified in advance.  In 
short, even
 if this amendment were permissible and philosophically 
desirable, our
 election procedures, from nomination of candidates to membership
 verification, would have to be radically modified.  I'm not 
opposed to
 change, but I question whether the dramatic investment of effort
 required is worth the benefit of allowing a few more people to 
vote.
 As Darian emphasized, there are many, many other ways we can be 
using
 our energy and exercising our membership rights.
 Respectfully,
 Arielle

 On 6/18/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
 Jorge,
  You're putting this out in the open for public scrutiny so I'm 
going
 to be honest.  I really, really don't like the idea-it opens up 
all
 sorts of cans of worms that don't seem right to me.  Consider 
the
 following.
  We probably won't know all the candidates in the election 
*until*
 the actual business meeting.  There could be someone who, for
 whatever
 reason, hasn't announced their candidacy for office on the list.  
I
 think it's only fair that anyone who's even considering voting 
in the
 election knows who all candidates are and has the opportunity to
 listen to each introduction speech (even if it's only 30 seconds
 long), before they cast their ballot.  That's only fair to all 
the
 candidates involved.  I would consider supporting an idea that 
allows
 those due-paying members in virtual attendance (through an 
official
 NABS skype call or the like) the opportunity to vote.  Beyond 
that, I
 don't think you have much of a case.
  Also, think about this.  Let's say you, hypothetically, were 
running
 for NABS president.  You get a bunch of your blind friends who 
aren't
 going to convention, who may or may not want anything to do with 
the
 Federation, and have them pay $5 so they're voting members.  I'm 
not
 saying you'd do such a thing, I'm just saying you're leaving 
that
 kind
 of possibility open.  No matter how secure the voting method is, 
that
 makes this something that could happen.  Do other organizations 
open
 that door?  Sure.  Should we?  I say no.
  But the spirit behind the idea isn't bad.  I think, personally, 
if
 we could ensure some sort of secure method for virtual 
attendance at
 the meeting for those due-paying members who can't make 
convention,
 I'd be all for allowing them to vote.  Maybe set up a shoutcast
 server
 streaming the meeting, and only give the password to those 
due-paying
 members who request it?  Make a conference call and only give 
the
 calling info/access code for those due-paying members who ask 
for it?
 If we instituted a system like that, I don't see why we couldn't
 allow
 that sort of absentee voting, but only for those who are in 
virtual
 attendance at the NABS business meeting and not for anyone else.  
Am
 I
 making any sense?  Is that a possibility?
  All the best,
 Kirt

 On 6/18/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
 Arielle:
 Not exactly,
 I'm going to continue to edit the amendment myself and should be
 able
 to
 submit it before July second.
 I posted this version so that people could see my amendment in 
light
 of
 the
 entire section.

 On Jun 18, 2011, at 7:59 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote:

 Jorge,
 Is this the final version you would like read at the NABS 
meeting
 this
 year? Or, would you like to wait until 2012 when you will be at
 convention yourself and can present and defend it?
 If you want it read in 2011 and you will not be at convention, 
you
 will need to find someone else who will be there to read and 
defend
 it.
 Arielle

 On 6/17/11, Joseph C.  Lininger <jbahm at pcdesk.net> wrote:
 George,
 I hate to be a killjoy on you, but you're probably wasting your
 time
 with this.  The organization isn't going to change this 
particular
 policy, no matter how many people would like to see it happen.  
For
 the
 record, I'm with you on this one, but I'm also no longer a
 federationest
 and haven't been for some years now.  Too many differences of
 opinion.
 --
 "All models are wrong, but some are useful." George E.  P.  Box
 Joseph C.  Lininger, <jbahm at pcdesk.net

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 --
 Arielle Silverman
 President, National Association of Blind Students
 Phone:  602-502-2255
 Email:
 nabs.president at gmail.com
 Website:
 www.nabslink.org

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 --
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 Phone:  602-502-2255
 Email:
 nabs.president at gmail.com
 Website:
 www.nabslink.org

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 Email:
 nabs.president at gmail.com
 Website:
 www.nabslink.org

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