[nabs-l] draft 2 - complete section with amendment
Josh Gregory
joshkart12 at gmail.com
Sun Jun 19 19:09:56 UTC 2011
I usually wouldn't get in on things like this, but as I recall,
Arielle stated that voice votes are used, and card ballots are
only used in place of when a voice vote cannot decide things.
Best,
Josh
sent from my Apex
Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 15:03:59 -0400
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] draft 2 - complete section with amendment
Kirt:
Well said.
I might add, that voice votes, for a division like NABS, would
allow a chance for non-members to vote, and that would surely
break the whole purpose of having to pay 5 dollars to begin with.
If we're concerned about non-members voting in an online system,
don't even consider the voice vote, not for NABS at least.
On Jun 19, 2011, at 1:40 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
Peter,
Reinventing the wheel is sometimes good. If we hadn't
reinvented
the wheel, black people wouldn't be voting. If we hadn't
reinvented
the wheel, the NFB wouldn't be around. Without us reinventing
the
wheel, there would be no blind driver challenge, whatever your
personal opinion a bout that may be. I say sometimes the wheel
needs
to be reinvented-even perfectly good systems can be made better.
A
counting procedure is better than a voice vote, IMHO, at least
for a
devision the size of NABS. I wouldn't say it would be better
for the
NFB as a whole but hey, aren't devisions acorded to run their
elections the way that works best for them?
Best,
Kirt
On 6/19/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
Jorge,
I admit our current system is *not* fool proof. A non-member
can
come to national convention, pay the dues, register to vote, and
influence the election. But, in a funny way, I'd rather have
that
kind of non-member, who is willing to put in the week of time,
make
the illegal vote over the non-member you can just give $5 to so
they
can register and become a member online.
Just my thoughts,
Kirt
On 6/19/11, Peter Donahue <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com> wrote:
Hello everyone,
The vast majority of our local chapters and affiliates
conduct fare
elections without resorting to junk like this. Angela Wolfe
cautioned
NABS
on the use of cards in 2009. I know because I was there and
have the
recording of her remarks. It's on the NABS Web Site for all to
hear.
Every
time I've heard a card/ballot system of this kind tried it does
nothing
but
slow down the election process and make the procedure cumbersome
and more
of
a hassle than need be. If you want your elections to run more
smoothly
get
rid of the cards and use the good old voice vote system like our
other
affiliates use. There's little if any concern about individuals
voting
when
they shouldn't. Stick with what works and quit trying to
reinvent the
wheel.
Our national constitution got us this far so why monkey with
something
that works and has proven its weight in gold? You have more
important
things
to do than to implement ridiculous election procedures and
monkeying with
your constitution every time you turn around. JMO.
Peter Donahue
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arielle Silverman" <nabs.president at gmail.com
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] draft 2 - complete section with amendment
Hi George,
That's a good question. When people come to the NABS business
meeting
and pay their dues, they are given a set of ballots. Only
people who
stop by the registration table and give our treasurer their $5
get
ballots. I think this is a pretty good way of ensuring that
only paid
members vote.
Sure, we can allow people to pay throughout the year and create
a
tracking system. I think that is a good idea. However, once
they've
paid, if they want to vote online, how do we prove they've paid
beforehand?
It might work if people pay their $5 online right before the
election.
But even then, I worry about hackers and other fancy computer
gimmicks
that might game the system.
Arielle
On 6/19/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
Arielle:
With all due respect,
how would we be able to identify current members without any
problem?
That is to say,
do we keep some kind of database of who is *currently* on NABS?
The reason I'm asking is because I don't see how NABS keeps
track of
current
membership to begin with, let alone new members.
Are you saying you're opposed to such an amendment because it
would mean
creating a tracking system for the entire membership?
And if so, wouldn't this help NABS in the long run?
Thanks,
Jorge
On Jun 19, 2011, at 1:52 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
Excellent point, Kurt. I have heard of cases at state
conventions
where candidates brought all their friends who were not NFB
members
on the day of the election to pay their dues and vote in person.
Sure,
this could happen at a national convention, but it seems less
likely,
and much more likely if absentee voting were allowed. The
problem
could be minimized by requiring payment of dues a month or so in
advance of the election. But even then, how could we verify
payment
status virtually? The U.S. government allows mail-in voting,
but in
that case candidates are clearly identified in advance. In
short, even
if this amendment were permissible and philosophically
desirable, our
election procedures, from nomination of candidates to membership
verification, would have to be radically modified. I'm not
opposed to
change, but I question whether the dramatic investment of effort
required is worth the benefit of allowing a few more people to
vote.
As Darian emphasized, there are many, many other ways we can be
using
our energy and exercising our membership rights.
Respectfully,
Arielle
On 6/18/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
Jorge,
You're putting this out in the open for public scrutiny so I'm
going
to be honest. I really, really don't like the idea-it opens up
all
sorts of cans of worms that don't seem right to me. Consider
the
following.
We probably won't know all the candidates in the election
*until*
the actual business meeting. There could be someone who, for
whatever
reason, hasn't announced their candidacy for office on the list.
I
think it's only fair that anyone who's even considering voting
in the
election knows who all candidates are and has the opportunity to
listen to each introduction speech (even if it's only 30 seconds
long), before they cast their ballot. That's only fair to all
the
candidates involved. I would consider supporting an idea that
allows
those due-paying members in virtual attendance (through an
official
NABS skype call or the like) the opportunity to vote. Beyond
that, I
don't think you have much of a case.
Also, think about this. Let's say you, hypothetically, were
running
for NABS president. You get a bunch of your blind friends who
aren't
going to convention, who may or may not want anything to do with
the
Federation, and have them pay $5 so they're voting members. I'm
not
saying you'd do such a thing, I'm just saying you're leaving
that kind
of possibility open. No matter how secure the voting method is,
that
makes this something that could happen. Do other organizations
open
that door? Sure. Should we? I say no.
But the spirit behind the idea isn't bad. I think, personally,
if
we could ensure some sort of secure method for virtual
attendance at
the meeting for those due-paying members who can't make
convention,
I'd be all for allowing them to vote. Maybe set up a shoutcast
server
streaming the meeting, and only give the password to those
due-paying
members who request it? Make a conference call and only give
the
calling info/access code for those due-paying members who ask
for it?
If we instituted a system like that, I don't see why we couldn't
allow
that sort of absentee voting, but only for those who are in
virtual
attendance at the NABS business meeting and not for anyone else.
Am I
making any sense? Is that a possibility?
All the best,
Kirt
On 6/18/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
Arielle:
Not exactly,
I'm going to continue to edit the amendment myself and should be
able
to
submit it before July second.
I posted this version so that people could see my amendment in
light
of
the
entire section.
On Jun 18, 2011, at 7:59 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
Jorge,
Is this the final version you would like read at the NABS
meeting
this
year? Or, would you like to wait until 2012 when you will be at
convention yourself and can present and defend it?
If you want it read in 2011 and you will not be at convention,
you
will need to find someone else who will be there to read and
defend
it.
Arielle
On 6/17/11, Joseph C. Lininger <jbahm at pcdesk.net> wrote:
George,
I hate to be a killjoy on you, but you're probably wasting your
time
with this. The organization isn't going to change this
particular
policy, no matter how many people would like to see it happen.
For
the
record, I'm with you on this one, but I'm also no longer a
federationest
and haven't been for some years now. Too many differences of
opinion.
--
"All models are wrong, but some are useful." George E. P. Box
Joseph C. Lininger, <jbahm at pcdesk.net
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Website:
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