[nabs-l] draft 2 - complete section with amendment

[Chris Nusbaum]

But that's not what we're talking about! We're talking about a 
way that people who somehow can't attend national convention can 
still exercise their right to vote with everybody else.  NFB even 
says that only 3000 people attend the convention every year.  
This is a lot of people, but not compared to NFB's membership of 
50000.

 Chris

"A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto)
To learn more about Camp Abilities and find a local camp near 
you, just click on this link to their national Web site: 
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The I C.A.N.  Foundation helps visually impaired youth in 
Maryland have the ability to confidently say "I can!" How? Click 
on this link to learn more and to contribute: 
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 Sent from my BrailleNote

 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 13:04:01 -0500
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] draft 2 - complete section with amendment

Hello Chris and everyone,

    And how will wasting time with this horsepuckey raise funds 
to help more
blind students attend the national convention?

Peter Donahue


----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Nusbaum" <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] draft 2 - complete section with amendment


Kirt,

Haven't we said this before? If online voting doesn't work, set
up a mail-in voting system.  Oh, and maybe we would have to have
a deadline for candidates to announce their candidacy.  Arielle,
would this require that much radical change? That is, the
principle of the amendment itself, not the online voting.

 Chris

"A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto)
To learn more about Camp Abilities and find a local camp near
you, just click on this link to their national Web site:
www.campabilities.org.

The I C.A.N.  Foundation helps visually impaired youth in
Maryland have the ability to confidently say "I can!" How? Click
on this link to learn more and to contribute:
www.icanfoundation.info.

 Sent from my BrailleNote

 ----- Original Message -----
From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 00:04:20 -0600
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] draft 2 - complete section with amendment

All,
  I've already made my thoughts about this known.  But the more I
think about it, the more I'm thinking I was wrong in suggesting
"virtual representation."  The reason being the potential for
abuse
David, Arielle and I, already articulated.  I was just too tired
to
connect the dots and realize that would apply to anyone who pays
dues-hypothetically, I could get all my ACB student friends
together
(I do have a few), give them all $5 to pay dues to NABS, then
they can
vote on the secure stream.  This, of course, is assuming a system
for
online dues gets set up.
  Just like the government often overrides personal rights for
the
safety and rights of society (look up smith v.  Oregon if you
want a
funky legal example), we have to override some of the rights of
NABS
members who don't attend convention to ensure the security of our
organization.  Sad?  Absolutely.  Necessary?  I'm thinking so.
I'll
concede it violates a right you should have in a perfect world.
But,
unless you haven't realized yet, our world's a far cry from
perfect.
The potential for abuse is just too great.  I agree with your
intent,
I really do.  But I just don't think it's feasible.
  In any case I wish you luck, Jorge.  If you're seriously
wanting
this to pass, you'll need all the luck you can get...even divine
intervention might not make it happen.  *grin*
  Warmly,
Kirt

On 6/18/11, Arielle Silverman <nabs.president at gmail.com> wrote:
 Excellent point, Kurt.  I have heard of cases at state
conventions
 where candidates brought all  their friends who were not NFB
members
 on the day of the election to pay their dues and vote in person.
Sure,
 this could happen at a national convention, but it seems less
likely,
 and much more likely if absentee voting were allowed.  The
problem
 could be minimized by requiring payment of dues a month or so in
 advance of the election.  But even then, how could we verify
payment
 status virtually? The U.S.  government allows mail-in voting,
but in
 that case candidates are clearly identified in advance.  In
short, even
 if this amendment were permissible and philosophically
desirable, our
 election procedures, from nomination of candidates to membership
 verification, would have to be radically modified.  I'm not
opposed to
 change, but I question whether the dramatic investment of effort
 required is worth the benefit of allowing a few more people to
vote.
 As Darian emphasized, there are many, many other ways we can be
using
 our energy and exercising our membership rights.
 Respectfully,
 Arielle

 On 6/18/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
 Jorge,
   You're putting this out in the open for public scrutiny so I'm
going
 to be honest.  I really, really don't like the idea-it opens up
all
 sorts of cans of worms that don't seem right to me.  Consider
the
 following.
   We probably won't know all the candidates in the election
*until*
 the actual business meeting.  There could be someone who, for
whatever
 reason, hasn't announced their candidacy for office on the list.
I
 think it's only fair that anyone who's even considering voting
in the
 election knows who all candidates are and has the opportunity to
 listen to each introduction speech (even if it's only 30 seconds
 long), before they cast their ballot.  That's only fair to all
the
 candidates involved.  I would consider supporting an idea that
allows
 those due-paying members in virtual attendance (through an
official
 NABS skype call or the like) the opportunity to vote.  Beyond
that, I
 don't think you have much of a case.
   Also, think about this.  Let's say you, hypothetically, were
running
 for NABS president.  You get a bunch of your blind friends who
aren't
 going to convention, who may or may not want anything to do with
the
 Federation, and have them pay $5 so they're voting members.  I'm
not
 saying you'd do such a thing, I'm just saying you're leaving
that kind
 of possibility open.  No matter how secure the voting method is,
that
 makes this something that could happen.  Do other organizations
open
 that door?  Sure.  Should we?  I say no.
   But the spirit behind the idea isn't bad.  I think,
personally, if
 we could ensure some sort of secure method for virtual
attendance at
 the meeting for those due-paying members who can't make
convention,
 I'd be all for allowing them to vote.  Maybe set up a shoutcast
server
 streaming the meeting, and only give the password to those
due-paying
 members who request it?  Make a conference call and only give
the
 calling info/access code for those due-paying members who ask
for it?
 If we instituted a system like that, I don't see why we couldn't
allow
 that sort of absentee voting, but only for those who are in
virtual
 attendance at the NABS business meeting and not for anyone else.
Am I
 making any sense?  Is that a possibility?
   All the best,
 Kirt

 On 6/18/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
 Arielle:
 Not exactly,
 I'm going to continue to edit the amendment myself and should be
able to
 submit it before July second.
 I posted this version so that people could see my amendment in
light of
 the
 entire section.


 On Jun 18, 2011, at 7:59 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote:

 Jorge,
 Is this the final version you would like read at the NABS
meeting this
 year? Or, would you like to wait until 2012 when you will be at
 convention yourself and can present and defend it?
 If you want it read in 2011 and you will not be at convention,
you
 will need to find someone else who will be there to read and
defend
 it.
 Arielle

 On 6/17/11, Joseph C.  Lininger <jbahm at pcdesk.net> wrote:
 George,
 I hate to be a killjoy on you, but you're probably wasting your
time
 with this.  The organization isn't going to change this
particular
 policy, no matter how many people would like to see it happen.
For the
 record, I'm with you on this one, but I'm also no longer a
 federationest
 and haven't been for some years now.  Too many differences of
opinion.
 --
 "All models are wrong, but some are useful." George E.  P.  Box
 Joseph C.  Lininger, <jbahm at pcdesk.net

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 --
 Arielle Silverman
 President, National Association of Blind Students
 Phone:  602-502-2255
 Email:
 nabs.president at gmail.com
 Website:
 www.nabslink.org

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 --
 Arielle Silverman
 President, National Association of Blind Students
 Phone:  602-502-2255
 Email:
 nabs.president at gmail.com
 Website:
 www.nabslink.org

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