[nabs-l] [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw Our Eyes interview, Ride into History, Race for Independence, Wed. June 22, 8:00 pm EDT
Anmol Bhatia
anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com
Sat Jun 25 05:52:48 UTC 2011
Kirt,
I would not consider having a accessible currency a luxury. True we have successfully managed our money without much problem, but having to managed inaccessible currency is something we have had to do not by choice, but by force. With the current system we are forced to rely on the honesty of others and technology to identify our money and not able to persue some employment opportunities such as cashiers because we can not independently identify paper currency. I do not consider this to be a luxury, but necessity just as important as the ADA itself. True the Talking ATM are a necessity because without it a blind person was forced to rely on some other means of accessing their ATM, but one can reasonablely argue that if a blind person knose what they are doing (memorize the ATM) or always have a sighted person to help with the ATM it is accessible. Bringing new currency will not mean that all the ATM will have to be changed. Most can just be
programed to reconize the new notes.
Anmol
I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze among flowers.
Hellen Keller
--- On Fri, 6/24/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw Our Eyes interview, Ride into History, Race for Independence, Wed. June 22, 8:00 pm EDT
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Friday, June 24, 2011, 10:53 PM
> Anmol,
> There's a big, big difference between this and the
> ADA. We needed
> those protections to compete on an equal level in the
> workplace; we
> couldn't have equal access without them. our currency is
> already
> accessible if we know what to do. In other words,
> having more
> blind-friendly currency is a luxury. Would it be
> nice? Absolutely!
> But it would also be nice if the government bought every
> blind person
> a GPS to help us travel. It would be nice if the
> government payed for
> all of us to receive talking meat thermometers and other
> such cooking
> aids to make preparing food easier. Heck, it would be
> nice if the
> government instituted a special "blind discount" for any
> blind person
> who wants to use a taxicab; it would certainly make it
> easier for a
> lot of us to get around independently. Why don't we
> push for these
> things, if we want the whole United States of America to
> bend over
> backwards for us?
> Those examples I gave were intended to sound a
> little bit ridiculous
> because, to me, it's not practical. Heck, my credit
> union is only now
> installing Talking ATM equipment and the law requiring that
> was
> passed...what, 20 years ago? (I think it was
> officially legally
> mandated in the ADA but I'm not positive, so someone who
> knows for
> sure feel free to correct me. I can't believe people
> haven't
> emphasized the cost of this thing-every single ATM in use
> in the
> United states would probably have to go and that's
> huge! Especially
> since we're just barely getting to the point where most
> ATMS are
> accessible. I think it's too much to ask.
> Anyways my point basically is this. The ADA
> was a necessity-without
> the provisions and guarantees mandated by that law, I think
> it's safe
> to say we wouldn't have the propper opportunity to compete
> on terms of
> equality. Without the ADA we would have no access to
> many of the
> resources we use all the time. This accessible
> currency idea is
> different, because most blind people can deal with money
> just fine.
> In other words, it might help us but we can get along ok
> without it.
> Best,
> Kirt
>
> On 6/24/11, Anmol Bhatia <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Kirt,
> > I am not sure, but I would guess that the current
> system of Indian currency
> > has been in place since independence in 1947 before
> any vending machines or
> > ATM were invented. True it is not fair for millions of
> sighted individuals
> > to have to pay and adjust to accessible currency:
> redesigning ATM and
> > vending machines, replacing the cash they already have
> which individuals
> > have to do every 7 years I believe or whenever a new
> note comes out; but if
> > we allow the fairness arguement for the sighted keep
> us from advancing our
> > goals to create opportunities and bring greater
> independence for the blind
> > we would never achieve anything. If we used the
> fairness arguement as you
> > described, it is not fair for millions of businesses
> to be mandated to build
> > ramps or have elevaters so that hand full of persons
> in wheelchair can have
> > equal access, but do we live and do we want to live in
> a society where only
> > majority have access and opportunity to life because
> making
> > adjustments or baring cost associated to
> bringing the necessary changes to
> > make certain aspects of life accessible is
> unfair to the majority, or do we
> > want a society where people are willing to adjust and
> bare cost so that
> > their fellow citizens who happen to be blind or
> disabled can have equal
> > opportunities and rights as them? If we take the
> fairness arguement, then
> > the Americans with Disabilities ACT (ADA) is
> unconstitutional and it was the
> > main reason why many businesses were opposed to it.
> Redesigning the currency
> > may cause inconvenience at first, but like Europe it
> will soon be a part of
> > life and an adjustment that many do not have any
> problems. Many sighted
> > people have asked me why is the currency not
> accessible? Many sighted people
> > who I talk to about this do not seem to mind baring
> the cost and the little
> > inconvenience associated with doing this in order to
> bring greater
> > opportunity and equality to the million or so blind
> individuals.
> >
> > best
> > Anmol
> >
> > I seldom think about my limitations, and they never
> make me sad. Perhaps
> > there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is
> vague, like a breeze
> > among flowers.
> > Hellen Keller
> >
> >
> > --- On Fri, 6/24/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw
> Our Eyes interview, Ride
> >> into History, Race for Independence, Wed. June 22,
> 8:00 pm EDT
> >> To: "National Association of Blind Students
> mailing list"
> >> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >> Date: Friday, June 24, 2011, 8:48 PM
> >> Anmol,
> >> I didn't say India doesn't have a lot of
> >> infrastructure. I just
> >> think the US, all told, has more that would need
> to be
> >> replaced. I'd
> >> be interested to know if India's currency has been
> of
> >> different sizes
> >> ever since India became in independent country in
> 1948.
> >> Just think of it this way. How many times do
> >> you see an ATM in a
> >> convenience store, bank, hotel, hospital, airport
> or
> >> supermarket? If
> >> we made our currency different sizes, or added
> tactile
> >> marks, all
> >> those hundreds of thousands of ATMS would have to
> be
> >> replaced. I'm
> >> sure Europe had that problem adopting the euro,
> but it was
> >> worth the
> >> cost for most people involved. It's not fair to
> the
> >> however many
> >> million sighted Americans out there to make them
> replace
> >> all their
> >> ATMS, vending machines, cash they already have,
> etc.
> >> But, like I
> >> said, since it's going to happen anyway, I hope
> they pull
> >> off
> >> something that will work.
> >> Best,
> >> Kirt
> >>
> >> On 6/24/11, Anmol Bhatia <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > Kirt,
> >> > Actually there is a large infrastructure in
> India. The
> >> thing is that
> >> > identifiable currency has just become a part
> of life
> >> and I don't think it
> >> > was ever intended to be accessable for the
> blind when
> >> it was designed. So
> >> > why was the Indian currency designed in
> different
> >> sizes? I am not sure, but
> >> > the sighted and blind have benefited from it
> alike and
> >> cost to do this can
> >> > not be that high since there are not many
> resources
> >> and frankly it is hard
> >> > to get Indian politicians to do anything good
> for
> >> people with disabilities
> >> > is rare. Perfect example of what can be
> possible in
> >> the US.
> >> > Anmol
> >> >
> >> > I seldom think about my limitations, and they
> never
> >> make me sad. Perhaps
> >> > there is just a touch of yearning at times;
> but it is
> >> vague, like a breeze
> >> > among flowers.
> >> > Hellen Keller
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --- On Fri, 6/24/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
> >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l]
> [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw
> >> Our Eyes interview, Ride
> >> >> into History, Race for Independence, Wed.
> June 22,
> >> 8:00 pm EDT
> >> >> To: "National Association of Blind
> Students
> >> mailing list"
> >> >> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >> >> Date: Friday, June 24, 2011, 7:14 PM
> >> >> Anmol,
> >> >> I should never say I'm leaving-people
> always
> >> say
> >> >> stuff and I can't
> >> >> stay away. Here's the thing about
> India. As
> >> >> large as the population
> >> >> is (massive!), there's not near the
> infrastructure
> >> to
> >> >> replace. I hope
> >> >> that will change as India's economy
> becomes more
> >> and more
> >> >> developed
> >> >> and the middle class gets larger but, as
> it stands
> >> now, I
> >> >> think doing
> >> >> this in the US would be a lot harder than
> in India
> >> because
> >> >> of all the
> >> >> machinery that would need to be redone.
> >> >> Best,
> >> >> Kirt
> >> >>
> >> >> On 6/24/11, Anmol Bhatia <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > Kirt,
> >> >> > The population of UK may be five
> times less
> >> then US,
> >> >> but the population of
> >> >> > my country of India is 1 billion
> almost
> >> three
> >> >> times more then the US and
> >> >> > still we have currency wich can be
> >> identifiable by the
> >> >> blind. So if India
> >> >> > can make the transition without a
> problem,
> >> then it
> >> >> should not be that
> >> >> > difficult for the US.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Anmol
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I seldom think about my limitations,
> and they
> >> never
> >> >> make me sad. Perhaps
> >> >> > there is just a touch of yearning at
> times;
> >> but it is
> >> >> vague, like a breeze
> >> >> > among flowers.
> >> >> > Hellen Keller
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --- On Thu, 6/23/11, Kirt Manwaring
> <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l]
> >> [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw
> >> >> Our Eyes interview, Ride
> >> >> >> into History, Race for
> Independence, Wed.
> >> June 22,
> >> >> 8:00 pm EDT
> >> >> >> To: "National Association of
> Blind
> >> Students
> >> >> mailing list"
> >> >> >> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >> >> >> Date: Thursday, June 23, 2011,
> 10:49 PM
> >> >> >> Carley,
> >> >> >> Cool! I've never been a
> science
> >> guy. I'm
> >> >> >> going to straite my brain
> >> >> >> and leave the list for a couple
> days.
> >> Enjoy,
> >> >> >> everyone.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On 6/23/11, Carly Mihalakis
> <carlymih at earthlink.net>
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Hi, Kurt,
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > As I understand it, a
> muscle
> >> striates when it
> >> >> is
> >> >> >> active. If
> >> >> >> > therefore, a law, procedure
> or
> >> cultural norm
> >> >> striates,
> >> >> >> it flexes its
> >> >> >> > muscle, thus changing
> states.
> >> >> >> > Have fun, Kurt!
> >> >> >> > Car23/2011, you wrote:
> >> >> >> >>Carly,
> >> >> >> >> I'm not exactly
> sure what
> >> a
> >> >> >> striation is. The NFBwas
> opposed to
> >> >> >> >>such a measure, and I
> think they
> >> were
> >> >> right to be
> >> >> >> against it for
> >> >> >> >>reasons I've already
> mentioned.
> >> But,
> >> >> after
> >> >> >> the federal court judge
> >> >> >> >>decided to side with the
> ACB, the
> >> NFB
> >> >> decided,
> >> >> >> rightly, that it may as
> >> >> >> >>well be a part of the
> process
> >> since it was
> >> >> going to
> >> >> >> happen anyway. I
> >> >> >> >>don't really see the
> harm in
> >> this, do
> >> >> you?
> >> >> >> >> Best,
> >> >> >> >>Kirt
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>On 6/23/11, Carly
> Mihalakis
> >> <carlymih at earthlink.net>
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > Good morning,
> Kirt,
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> 'Seems to
> >> >> >> me though, that one ought to be
> able to
> >> determine
> >> >> >> >> > shades of their
> own
> >> reality, which
> >> >> is how I
> >> >> >> understand the Federation
> >> >> >> >> > wants its members,
> to
> >> conduct
> >> >> themselves, in
> >> >> >> the world. Yet, beyond
> >> >> >> >> > the elaborate
> striations
> >> the
> >> >> existing system
> >> >> >> will need to experience,
> >> >> >> >> > if such a change
> were to be
> >> made,
> >> >> how come
> >> >> >> the Federation
> >> >> >> >> > didn't speak up
> when it
> >> was asked,
> >> >> by
> >> >> >> the Mint last time that entity
> >> >> >> >> > produced curency?
> >> >> >> >> > :
> >> >> >> >> >>Carly,
> >> >> >> >> >> We all
> make
> >> >> >> mistakes. No worries.
> >> >> >> >> >> Now, just
> for the
> >> heck
> >> >> >> of it, I'd like to address a
> point I
> >> think
> >> >> >> >> >>you made
> earlier. (I'm
> >> only
> >> >> >> guessing, because my gmail
> wouldn't read
> >> >> >> >> >>the whole
> message to
> >> me) But I
> >> >> think
> >> >> >> you said something like this.
> >> >> >> >> >>"The federation
> is kind
> >> of
> >> >> hypocritical
> >> >> >> because they rap ad noseum
> >> >> >> >> >>about
> independence but
> >> are stuck
> >> >> relying
> >> >> >> on sighted people to help
> >> >> >> >> >>them-depending
> on
> >> another person
> >> >> isn't
> >> >> >> independence at all!" If I'm
> >> >> >> >> >>off the mark,
> I'm sorry,
> >> but I
> >> >> can see you
> >> >> >> saying something like that
> >> >> >> >> >>so it's just my
> guess of
> >> what you
> >> >> said
> >> >> >> from the little bit gmail was
> >> >> >> >> >>able to read
> me.
> >> >> >> >> >> Here's
> the thing
> >> about
> >> >> >> that. Independence does not
> mean do
> >> >> >> >> >>everything by
> yourself
> >> all the
> >> >> time.
> >> >> >> It simply means you can do what
> >> >> >> >> >>you want to,
> when you
> >> want to do
> >> >> it, in a
> >> >> >> way that's efficient and
> >> >> >> >> >>works for
> you. It
> >> means,
> >> >> basically,
> >> >> >> that you aren't subject to
> >> >> >> >> >>another
> person's vision
> >> of your
> >> >> life, you
> >> >> >> do things the way you wish
> >> >> >> >> >>to do them.
> It also
> >> means you
> >> >> do
> >> >> >> this without really making
> anyone
> >> >> >> >> >>else go much
> out of
> >> their way to
> >> >> help
> >> >> >> you.
> >> >> >> >> >> So think
> of it
> >> this
> >> >> >> way. Every store already has a
> sighted
> >> worker,
> >> >> >> >> >>most of those
> will be
> >> honest,
> >> >> almost all
> >> >> >> will be honest with other
> >> >> >> >> >>people
> watching. If
> >> you ask
> >> >> that
> >> >> >> person "hey, what's this bill
> you're
> >> >> >> >> >>handing me?"
> that's in
> >> no way
> >> >> compromising
> >> >> >> your independence. Using
> >> >> >> >> >>technology is
> better
> >> because it
> >> >> takes away
> >> >> >> the outside chance that
> >> >> >> >> >>someone's
> trying to pull
> >> off some
> >> >> funny
> >> >> >> business but, without the
> >> >> >> >> >>technology,
> you're still
> >> probably
> >> >> safe
> >> >> >> most of the time. As we've
> >> >> >> >> >>seen already
> from other
> >> posts,
> >> >> nothing is
> >> >> >> fool proof.
> >> >> >> >> >> But back
> to
> >> independence
> >> >> >> and philosophy and stuff. Have
> you
> >> ever
> >> >> >> >> >>used a
> reader? If you
> >> have,
> >> >> you're
> >> >> >> using another person, who's
> >> >> >> >> >>chosing to do
> something
> >> they
> >> >> don't have to
> >> >> >> do; either they get money
> >> >> >> >> >>or they don't,
> but it
> >> works
> >> >> because you
> >> >> >> get the job done and you
> >> >> >> >> >>aren't forcing
> them to
> >> do it for
> >> >> >> you. They chose to provide
> their
> >> >> >> >> >>time to read
> you
> >> something-you
> >> >> aren't
> >> >> >> making them do anything. Have
> >> >> >> >> >>you ever used a
> sighted
> >> guide?
> >> >> I do,
> >> >> >> all the time. (I'm starting
> to
> >> >> >> >> >>less and less
> just to
> >> keep my
> >> >> cane skills
> >> >> >> up but sometimes it's just
> >> >> >> >> >>the most
> efficient way
> >> to get
> >> >> stuff
> >> >> >> done.) You can get somewhere
> >> >> >> >> >>independently
> and use a
> >> sighted
> >> >> guide, as
> >> >> >> long as you're getting there
> >> >> >> >> >>on your terms
> and you
> >> could do it
> >> >> without
> >> >> >> a guide there.
> >> >> >> >> >> See what
> I'm
> >> >> >> saying? Independent and
> interdependent
> >> aren't
> >> >> >> mutually
> >> >> >> >> >>exclusive.
> >> >> >> >> >> Best,
> >> >> >> >> >>Kirt
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >>On 6/23/11,
> Carly
> >> Mihalakis
> >> >> <carlymih at earthlink.net>
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> > 'Morning,
> Kurt,
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> 'Guess I really blew it for myuy
> self
> >> with all
> >> >> those I'd
> >> >> >> say
> >> >> >> >> >> > off the
> wall
> >> comments,
> >> >> about the
> >> >> >> Ibill.
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> > Now a
> truth
> >> immerges which
> >> >> I failed
> >> >> >> to state clearly, before.
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> > 'was
> confused with
> >> the
> >> >> NoteTeller 2
> >> >> >> which, experience has shown me
> is
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> unreliable, at
> >> best.
> >> >> >> >> >> > Carly
> even the
> >> person
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >
> showing
> >> them
> >> >> couild not
> >> >> >> make them work.
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >
> It's
> >> interesting
> >> >> however
> >> >> >> that folks on this List have
> found good
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >
> luck
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >
> with
> >> them.
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> Carwrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >>That
> >> is your
> >> >> experience
> >> >> >> -- mine is that the iBill works
> quite
> >> well
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >>-- and
> >> I think
> >> >> others
> >> >> >> have found this to be true too.
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >>Dave
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >>At
> >> 05:08 PM
> >> >> 6/22/2011,
> >> >> >> you wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>Hi,
> >> >> Hamberto and all
> >> >> >> interested folks,
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >>>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>Truth be
> >> >> known, my
> >> >> >> common law husband and I had the
> I bill,
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>courtesy of
> >> >> rehab
> >> >> >> but, after repeated attempts to
> make the
> >> thing
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>identify
> >> >> paper
> >> >> >> currency, we ascertained it a
> genuine
> >> piece of
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >>>
> >> shit
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>and is not
> >> >> worth
> >> >> >> anything, so I submit that the
> >> manufacturers
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >>>
> >> must
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >>>be
> >> well
> >> >> aware of
> >> >> >> their having themselves a niche
> market,
> >> in blind
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>people and
> >> >> the deep
> >> >> >> pocketed agencies who tend to
> support
> >> them,
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >>>
> >> so
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>are
> >> >> totally
> >> >> >> exploiting it in the manner of
> any
> >> Capitalist
> >> >> aware
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >>>
> >> of
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>the
> >> >> exisstance of a
> >> >> >> small and needy marketplace.
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>So, in
> >> >> essence,
> >> >> >> don't waste your's or rehab's
> time with
> >> the I
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>bill! 02:11
> >> >> PM
> >> >> >> 6/22/2011, you wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>>Hello,
> >> >> but what
> >> >> >> happens if I have a bill in my
> hand and I
> >> want
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>> to
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>> know
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>> what
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>>it is,
> >> >> but there
> >> >> >> is not a single sighted soul to
> tell me
> >> what it
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>> is? I
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>> know
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>>is a
> >> >> free
> >> >> >> alternative but, is it truly
> worth it?
> >> And, what
> >> >> if
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>> that
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>>
> >> >> sighted
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>>person
> >> >> lies
> >> >> >> about the amount of money that
> is on the
> >> bill?
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>>I would
> >> >> probably
> >> >> >> support ideas like the KNFB
> reader and
> >> the
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>> iBill
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>>
> >> >> identifier
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>>if they
> >> >> were
> >> >> >> even cheaper. If they were so, I
> would
> >> buy one or
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>> the
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>>
> >> >> other,
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >>>>but so
> >> >> far, I
> >> >> >> can not afford either one.
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >>nabs-l
> >> mailing
> >> >> list
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >>To
> >> unsubscribe,
> >> >> change
> >> >> >> your list options or get your
> account
> >> info
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> for
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >>
> >> nabs-l:
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%4
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> 0earthlink.net
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> >> >> >> >
> nabs-l
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