[nabs-l] Our own low expectations

Sun Mar 13 21:40:12 UTC 2011

Society's perceptions may begin from ignorance, but this ignorance
continues because people refuse-- for many reasons-- to set higher
expectations for themselves.

I too will be blunt-- and I am not referring to anyone on this list--
and say I am sick of running into blind people who have no other
disability, but have never considered even trying to achieve higher
goals.  And often these people are ones who have encountered a positive
philosophy, but do not buy into it.  Until more of us learn to live up
to our full potential, we will never change perceptions.

I knew someone who trained at a good center, possessed an outward
knowledge of the skills and talked a good talk, but in conversations, I
learned that they were accepting preferential treatment from professors,
and instead of doing their work, they were okay with taking the easy
route out.  I later had one of these instructors and of course, based on
prior experience, they assumed I required the same treatment.  Not only
did I not accept the easier route, but I ended up with a much better
grade in the class.

Having said all that, some conditions or disabilities when threaded in
with blindness do create more obstacles to overcome.  This is not a
reason to give up or not try, but we must understand that the more
barriers surrounding a person means there may be more work in knocking
those barriers down.

And in general, we all learn in different ways at different levels.  We
must learn compassion and patience because knocking heads or excluding
people or expecting cookie-cutter results, will not draw people towards
us.  We all come to the table with our experiences, emotions and baggage
and we must understand that we will not all progress together.

However, challenging ourselves and one another should happen and it is
healthy.  It sounds cheesey, but until we die, we always have more to
learn.

And I leave on this note, do not disregard anything or doubt the
possibility of something until you have attempted the leap.  Do not shun
advice or information until you have exhausted your research.

Bridgit

Message: 14
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:35:43 -0500
From: Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB
Message-ID:

<20110313043543.11790.74486 at domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"

Please forgive me for what I'm about to say as it might seem quite 
blunt. On the other hand, I think it needs to be said.

I believe that we as blind people (and especially blind people with 
other disabilities) set low expectations for ourselves, meet them and 
don't go outside of them, thus fulfill our own low expectations and the 
prophecies that come with them. I do think that training at a center is 
a good idea for people who want to improve their skill sets or for 
people who didn't have access to good training from the beginning. I 
also think that we do tend to set our expectations low, then get 
defensive when someone else challenges these low expectations with 
something we don't want to hear; we do this to rationalize our low 
expectations and thus maintain the status quo. I think we've got to be 
careful as it's so easy to do. I've seen people with multiple 
disabilities come leaps and bounds after working at one of our centers. 
I've also seen multi-disabled people battle low expectations about 
their other disabilities while at our centers. It frustrates me, but 
there you have it. The bottom line is that we, as Jernigan pointed out 
so many times, are a reflection of our own society; we also tend to 
accept social biases and expectation levels. Therefore, we absolutely 
must not take anything for granted and consider the possibility that we 
are selling ourselves short (or selling others short). The next time 
(Marsha) that someone challenges you to go to a center, don't take it 
as a judgement regarding your skills or your various disabilities, 
consider it as a challenge to grow and find new and exciting ways to 
accomplish what you currently think of as overwhelming or altogether 
impossible. I'm encouraging you to think of it this way because I truly 
think that was the spirit in which the challenge to attend a center was 
meant. I'm not defending anyone's rudeness, I'm just saying.

Respectfully Submitted,
Jedi

Original message:
> Marsha,
> I'm sorry to hear that.  I hope you told that individual that you have
a
> hearing loss and that presented additional challenges.
> Why is it that some judgemental people in NFB feel any deficit such as
> travel skills can be rectified by attending a center?
> People can have other challenges; teaching you can only go so far. For
> instance I've known people who received cane training for years, some
> structured discovery, some traditional, who cannot walk straight and
they
> veer on streets.  Others have trouble crossing streets and either may
get
> assistance with it or ask for an audible signal; training, such as
> interpreting sound cues, can only go so far.  You got to have some
sense of
> direction for it to work well.
> Hotels are hard for anyone to navigate; especially big ones like
conventions
> are in.
> As much as we talk independence, sight does help navigate crowds.
> Know why Jernigan and now Dr. Maurer have sighted guides often?
> Its faster and efficient!
> In new open areas, that is faster.

> Joshua said he needs help in unfamiliar places and sticks to learned
routes
> in those spots.
> I'm a good cane traveler, but the orientation part is challenging;
mobility
> part I can do; I just have trouble making mental maps and organizing
space.
> Certainly I've traveled alone a bit in hotels including for state
> convention, but I memorize main things like where the elevator is.

> I've seen people judged also for not reading braille efficiently or
fast.
> It may be a number of reasons such as tactile sensativity is lacking.

> I hope nfb comes more open in the future.
> Ashley
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marsha Drenth
> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 9:02 PM
> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB

> Kirt,

> Very well said. And I agree completely. As a blind person, as a person
with
> other disabilities, I never ever judge anyone for their abilities or
their
> lack of skills, or the alternative ways they may do something. I do
not
> judge others, because I do not want to be judged.

> Prime example, at the national convention. It's a huge hotel, I got a
little
> disorientated. Granted I have been in this hotel 3 times now. And when
I
> asked for help, I was treated as though my skills were not "good
enough".
> Its not my skills that need help, its my ears that do not work. And
when I
> explained this to said person I asked for help from, they said I
needed to
> go to a center for training. The hotel in Detroit was a nightmare for
me to
> navigate.

> Okay, I'll get off my soap box now. I am not even saying any of you
would be
> so judgmental, but people do need to think of these things.

> Marsha

> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
> Of Kirt Manwaring
> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 8:27 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB

> Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all,
>   I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with other
> disabilities.  We understand what it's like to be judged, doubted and
> ignored.  Would we want any of our multi-disabled friends, especially
> within our organizations, to feel that same judgment?  In that regard,
> we seem to share an eary resemblence to the sighted public so many of
> us love complaining about.
>   True other disabilities doubtless pose challenges.  So does
> blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as best we know how.
> Why shun or belittle someone whose other disabilities make it
> impossible, or at least more difficult than practical, to use the same
> techniques we do?  Our alternative techniques should never be seen as
> a one size fits all kind of system.  Because others, and I'm talking
> about people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to
> blindness, may use a different approach.  I'm disappointed in anyone
> who thinks their way works for everyone.  As Batman said, "it's not
> who we are that defines us.  It's what we do."  So let's all help each
> other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and
> disabilities, not just blindness.
>   Best,
> Kirt

> On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez <jorgeapaez at mac.com> wrote:
>>> Marsha:
>> I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted.

>> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think
we as
>> the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue.

>> Jorge

>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote:

>>> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are
> hearing
>>> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am
hard
>>> of
>>> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as
much as
>>> say
>>> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities
any
>>> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is
that why
>>> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or
>>> whatever
>>> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in
the
>>> NFB?
>>> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who
> can't
>>> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people,
that
>>> has
>>> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this
matter.
>>> But
>>> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind
for
>>> their
>>> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge
>>> others
>>> for the additional disabilities they may have.

>>> Just my two cents,
>>> Marsha

>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]
On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Brice Smith
>>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB

>>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some
>>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective
of
>>> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have
>>> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have
>>> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now
living
>>> longer lives, but often  with more profound impairments. She notes
>>> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students
>>> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not
have
>>> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations.

>>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are
>>> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network.
>>> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is
>>> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental
>>> disabilities.

>>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations
>>> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a
testament
>>> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a
>>> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of
>>> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what
does
>>> this mean for our future?

>>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the
future
>>> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and
>>> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual
>>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm
>>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the
future
>>> and years to come.

>>> Any thoughts are welcome.

>>> Brice

>>> --
>>> Brice Smith
>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations
>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com

>>> _______________________________________________
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Message: 15
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:57:56 -0500
From: Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB
Message-ID:

<20110313045756.11790.27777 at domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"

There are a number of disability communities that share similar beliefs 
to our own regarding disability. So, the thing we must do is ally 
ourselves with disability cultures similar to our own.

Respectfully Submitted

Original message:
> Joe,

> Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence may
> gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the
> arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I
> think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us unless
> we learn to be more inclusive.

> But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years ago
> because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community as a
> whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs,
> assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple
> disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more
> important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't do
> something in the future.

> to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize diversity
> and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at
> what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can we
> protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is it
> time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the
> organization?

> I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself.

> Brice

> On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Brice,

>> You are the future of the NFB.  What do you think the organization
should do
>> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only
disability
>> affecting the membership?  Don't speculate about what may happen.
Instead,
>> tell us what you think should happen.

>> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to
feel
>> inferior because they have secondary disabilities.  There have always
been
>> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the
people
>> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog
were
>> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of
travel
>> tools.  I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people
where
>> they could stick their condescending views.  Anyway, I guess Eleanor
>> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel
inferior
>> without your consent."

>> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division
not being
>> as promoted as the student or parent division?  They all get equal
access to
>> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might
simply be
>> owed to the size comparison between the groups.  If divisions that
focus on
>> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left
out, it
>> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything
worth
>> promoting?

>> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus.
>> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national
>> conventions.  Second, they create rifts in the membership when
power-hungry
>> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance.
Third,
>> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the
>> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community.  If I were
president
>> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to
eliminate
>> divisions in the way they exist today.  There are so many
professional
>> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within
our
>> ranks to create little havens for blind people.

>> My point is this:  The NFB cannot exist without members like you.
You are
>> the current youth and will be the future leader.  NFB members spend
so much
>> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time
acting,
>> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea
that if
>> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to
exist
>> in 50 years.  More on that point in a future post, but to answer your
>> question:  The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities
is to
>> encourage them to get involved.  Get on the boards and make the
organization
>> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics.  A few
years
>> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT
>> division, they were told that with enough support, the division would
be
>> established.  I think we're still waiting on this group to get their
act
>> together about drumming up support.  It's not enough to complain
about what
>> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not
doing
>> to accommodate certain members.  Just like the NFB as a whole has to
make a
>> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be
addressed,
>> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and
make a
>> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique
needs.

>> Just my twenty dollar's worth,

>> Joe

>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing

>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>> nabs-l:
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> --
> Brice Smith
> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations
> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com

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Message: 16
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 22:39:31 -0700
From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
	<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB
Message-ID:
	<AANLkTi=1VE7DCgTNLkrNKcFX+AyM_Mnr-y6UJhS=mAFn at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Jedi,
  I'm still not sold on the idea of a "disability
culture."...although, I think in the context of working with other
disability groups with a similar mindset to us, it makes sense.  But,
for me, the point of the NFB is empowering us to be part of whatever
culture we feel like with blindness being as minimal a factor as
possible.  I recognize that others have different interpretations of
how to apply NFB philosophy, but that's what it means to
me...blindness will not keep me from any of my goals in the world,
even though it places some limits in the way I have to overcome.  If
part of assessing our future is examining what NFB philosophy means to
each of us, that's probably a good place for me to start.  Thoughts,
anyone?  Am I missing the mark?
  Best,
Kirt

On 3/12/11, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
> There are a number of disability communities that share similar
beliefs
> to our own regarding disability. So, the thing we must do is ally
> ourselves with disability cultures similar to our own.
>
> Respectfully Submitted
>
> Original message:
>> Joe,
>
>> Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence may
>> gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the
>> arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I
>> think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us
unless
>> we learn to be more inclusive.
>
>> But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years ago
>> because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community as
a
>> whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs,
>> assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple
>> disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more
>> important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't
do
>> something in the future.
>
>> to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize diversity
>> and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at
>> what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can we
>> protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is it
>> time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the
>> organization?
>
>> I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself.
>
>> Brice
>
>> On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Brice,
>
>>> You are the future of the NFB.  What do you think the organization
should
>>> do
>>> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only
>>> disability
>>> affecting the membership?  Don't speculate about what may happen.
>>> Instead,
>>> tell us what you think should happen.
>
>>> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to
feel
>>> inferior because they have secondary disabilities.  There have
always
>>> been
>>> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the
>>> people
>>> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide
dog
>>> were
>>> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of
travel
>>> tools.  I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people
where
>>> they could stick their condescending views.  Anyway, I guess Eleanor
>>> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel
>>> inferior
>>> without your consent."
>
>>> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division
not
>>> being
>>> as promoted as the student or parent division?  They all get equal
access
>>> to
>>> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might
simply be
>>> owed to the size comparison between the groups.  If divisions that
focus
>>> on
>>> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left
out, it
>>> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything
worth
>>> promoting?
>
>>> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is
bogus.
>>> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between
national
>>> conventions.  Second, they create rifts in the membership when
>>> power-hungry
>>> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance.
>>> Third,
>>> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at
the
>>> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community.  If I were
>>> president
>>> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to
eliminate
>>> divisions in the way they exist today.  There are so many
professional
>>> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups
within our
>>> ranks to create little havens for blind people.
>
>>> My point is this:  The NFB cannot exist without members like you.
You
>>> are
>>> the current youth and will be the future leader.  NFB members spend
so
>>> much
>>> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time
acting,
>>> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea
that
>>> if
>>> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease
to
>>> exist
>>> in 50 years.  More on that point in a future post, but to answer
your
>>> question:  The way you accommodate people with secondary
disabilities is
>>> to
>>> encourage them to get involved.  Get on the boards and make the
>>> organization
>>> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics.  A few
years
>>> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT
>>> division, they were told that with enough support, the division
would be
>>> established.  I think we're still waiting on this group to get their
act
>>> together about drumming up support.  It's not enough to complain
about
>>> what
>>> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not
>>> doing
>>> to accommodate certain members.  Just like the NFB as a whole has to
make
>>> a
>>> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be
addressed,
>>> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and
make a
>>> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique
>>> needs.
>
>>> Just my twenty dollar's worth,
>
>>> Joe
>
>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>> sleeves,
>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%4
0gmail.com
>
>
>
>> --
>> Brice Smith
>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations
>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
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>
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> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
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>
> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 00:48:21 -0500
From: Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] imergency in Michigan
Message-ID:

<20110313054821.12249.5194 at domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"

They're just as propaganda-hungry as the die-hard liberal talkshow 
hosts. Just a thought. Bottom line is that one must consider all points 
of view, all facts, and then make their own decisions and do what's 
right according to their own values.

Respectfully Submitted

Original message:
> Bill ORieley, and Mike Huckabee, are the most trusted. I also like
Glenn Beck.
> Kirt, Beck is a Morman, (I thought I'd throw that out there.)
> Blessings, Joshua

> On 3/11/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>> :)  And you wonder why I don't much trust talkshow hosts.  On both
>> sides of the isle.
>>   Best,
>> Kirt

>> On 3/11/11, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> wrote:
>>> Is that Rachel Maddow? Of course, she can't be taken seriously!
She's
>>> a propaganda-hungry liberal!
>>> This propaganda is not for this list. Thanks, Jorge, I concur with
you
>>> on that one.
>>> Blessings, Joshua

>>> On 3/11/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Anyone know where I can look at the other side of this?  Cause,
just
>>>> going off of this lady's blatant way of picking out the worst-case
>>>> outcome of this whole thing...I'm honestly inclined to not take her
>>>> all that seriously.  Anyone wanna let me know what's really going
on
>>>> here?  (and please, if you do reply to me, do so off-list.  Heaven
>>>> knows this could turn in to something crazy)
>>>>   Best,
>>>> Kirt

>>>> On 3/11/11, Jorge Paez <jorgeapaez at mac.com> wrote:
>>>>> Andy:
>>>>> With all due respect,
>>>>> please do not post political propaganda on this list.

>>>>> Jorge

>>>>> On Mar 11, 2011, at 6:21 PM, Andi wrote:

>>>>>> I know this is not a national matter, but it is gravely sirious,
>>>>>> especially for those living in MI.  It is not  exactly a
blindness
>>>>>> ishue,
>>>>>> but will effect anyone on SSI or SSDI, and thoes on a pention
plan.  It
>>>>>> will also effect almost every aspect of thoes living in MI for
the
>>>>>> worst.
>>>>>> It is like big brother or something headed that way.  Something
must be
>>>>>> done!!  Hear is a link explaining it all.  It is not as in-depth
as it
>>>>>> could be about the matter but gives enough details to more than
just
>>>>>> raise
>>>>>> hackles.
>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUpO1QFMDtM

>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: community service Outreach
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:29 PM
>>>>>> To: nabs-l
>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Community service call Sunday March 13

>>>>>> Hi everyone.

>>>>>> It's time for another community service conference call!  We will
have
>>>>>> much discussion this Sunday.  We will discuss a possible
convention
>>>>>> service project.  We will also have a discussion of summer
>>>>>> oppertunities for service and especially working with youth.
Hope
>>>>>> you're on the call.

>>>>>> When: March 13th 7 P.M. EST

>>>>>> Where: Call  218.339.3600
>>>>>> Passcode:  808277

>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey
%40gmail.com

>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac
.com

>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4
0gmail.com

>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40st
udents.pccua.edu

>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4
0gmail.com

>> _______________________________________________
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>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>
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udents.pccua.edu

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------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 01:06:53 -0500
From: Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB
Message-ID:

<20110313060653.29087.71137 at domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"

Yes, you are missing the mark. A culture has little to do with whether 
or not you believe you can achieve within the greater society, unless 
that is one of the questions that founds your culture as it is with
ours.

The blind community actually has at least four cultures that I can 
identify: the NFB, the ACB, the unaffiliated consumer base, and the 
unaffiliated professional base. Professionals affiliated with one of 
the organizations are likely to build their professional values on the 
foundation of their affiliation's values. The unaffiliated 
professionals (and consumers) will have their own cultures, but that 
could be considered a major cultural grouping.

A culture is a group of individuals sharing similar beliefs regarding 
human nature, relationships between time and space, traditions, values, 
etc. Just because one individual belongs to one culture, that does not 
mean that the same individual cannot belong to other cultures 
concurrently; this principle is called intersectionality. It is true 
that an individual can belong to multiple cultural groups, but strongly 
identify with some of their cultural markers over others for just about 
any reason under the sun.

I would be happy to argue the NFB as a culture, but that would take 
some time and a lot of analysis. And frankly, I'm just not up to the 
task at the moment. The bottom line is that, anthropologically 
speaking, the NFB is a culture and that you can certainly belong to 
such a culture and maintain your cultural identity outside of the NFB 
without compromising any and all of your cultural identities. Does that 
make sense? The disability community also has multiple cultures, and 
these may or may not have anything to do with a specific disability, 
but may have more to do with how disability is defined. There are some 
disability cultures that the NFB would most certainly not identify 
with, others with which we would identify with some, and others with 
which we share much in common in terms of our core values related to 
the role of disability in our lives.

Respectfully submitted

Original message:
> Jedi,
>   I'm still not sold on the idea of a "disability
> culture."...although, I think in the context of working with other
> disability groups with a similar mindset to us, it makes sense.  But,
> for me, the point of the NFB is empowering us to be part of whatever
> culture we feel like with blindness being as minimal a factor as
> possible.  I recognize that others have different interpretations of
> how to apply NFB philosophy, but that's what it means to
> me...blindness will not keep me from any of my goals in the world,
> even though it places some limits in the way I have to overcome.  If
> part of assessing our future is examining what NFB philosophy means to
> each of us, that's probably a good place for me to start.  Thoughts,
> anyone?  Am I missing the mark?
>   Best,
> Kirt

> On 3/12/11, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>> There are a number of disability communities that share similar
beliefs
>> to our own regarding disability. So, the thing we must do is ally
>> ourselves with disability cultures similar to our own.

>> Respectfully Submitted

>> Original message:
>>> Joe,

>>> Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence
may
>>> gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the
>>> arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I
>>> think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us
unless
>>> we learn to be more inclusive.

>>> But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years ago
>>> because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community as
a
>>> whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs,
>>> assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple
>>> disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more
>>> important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't
do
>>> something in the future.

>>> to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize
diversity
>>> and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at
>>> what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can we
>>> protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is it
>>> time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the
>>> organization?

>>> I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself.

>>> Brice

>>> On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Brice,

>>>> You are the future of the NFB.  What do you think the organization
should
>>>> do
>>>> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only
>>>> disability
>>>> affecting the membership?  Don't speculate about what may happen.
>>>> Instead,
>>>> tell us what you think should happen.

>>>> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to
feel
>>>> inferior because they have secondary disabilities.  There have
always
>>>> been
>>>> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the
>>>> people
>>>> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide
dog
>>>> were
>>>> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of
travel
>>>> tools.  I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people
where
>>>> they could stick their condescending views.  Anyway, I guess
Eleanor
>>>> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel
>>>> inferior
>>>> without your consent."

>>>> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division
not
>>>> being
>>>> as promoted as the student or parent division?  They all get equal
access
>>>> to
>>>> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might
simply be
>>>> owed to the size comparison between the groups.  If divisions that
focus
>>>> on
>>>> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left
out, it
>>>> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything
worth
>>>> promoting?

>>>> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is
bogus.
>>>> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between
national
>>>> conventions.  Second, they create rifts in the membership when
>>>> power-hungry
>>>> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance.
>>>> Third,
>>>> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at
the
>>>> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community.  If I were
>>>> president
>>>> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to
eliminate
>>>> divisions in the way they exist today.  There are so many
professional
>>>> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups
within our
>>>> ranks to create little havens for blind people.

>>>> My point is this:  The NFB cannot exist without members like you.
You
>>>> are
>>>> the current youth and will be the future leader.  NFB members spend
so
>>>> much
>>>> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time
acting,
>>>> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial
idea that
>>>> if
>>>> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease
to
>>>> exist
>>>> in 50 years.  More on that point in a future post, but to answer
your
>>>> question:  The way you accommodate people with secondary
disabilities is
>>>> to
>>>> encourage them to get involved.  Get on the boards and make the
>>>> organization
>>>> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics.  A few
years
>>>> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT
>>>> division, they were told that with enough support, the division
would be
>>>> established.  I think we're still waiting on this group to get
their act
>>>> together about drumming up support.  It's not enough to complain
about
>>>> what
>>>> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is
not
>>>> doing
>>>> to accommodate certain members.  Just like the NFB as a whole has
to make
>>>> a
>>>> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be
addressed,
>>>> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and
make a
>>>> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their
unique
>>>> needs.

>>>> Just my twenty dollar's worth,

>>>> Joe

>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>>> sleeves,
>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam
Ewing

>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%4
0gmail.com

>>> --
>>> Brice Smith
>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations
>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com

>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
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samobile.net

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Message: 19
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:18:26 -0700
From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
	<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB
Message-ID:
	<AANLkTi=C4CeimHjXpLJ552-CFKGXURPKVOvq+GtH-eFT at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Jedi,
  Fair enough...I'm not up for arguing, especially when lots of it
would probably involve semantics.  I forfit, you win.  :)  All I will
say is that your analysis seems a little too cut-and-dry to me, and
there's very much a grey area between your four cultures.  Maybe I
belong to all four...heck, I probably do.  But that seems like it
excludes me from one or the other, because I'm not committed enough to
any particular organization and I'm not really "anti" any of them.  In
your definition, we're all part of all sorts of cultures...which begs
a very important question and, I would say, brings this thread full
circle.  You said culture is a set of shared common beliefs that
members adhear to.  What, pray tell, are the common beliefs of the
NFB?  I'm not sure that question's as easy to answer as it used to be.
  Best,
Kirt

On 3/12/11, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
> Yes, you are missing the mark. A culture has little to do with whether
> or not you believe you can achieve within the greater society, unless
> that is one of the questions that founds your culture as it is with
ours.
>
> The blind community actually has at least four cultures that I can
> identify: the NFB, the ACB, the unaffiliated consumer base, and the
> unaffiliated professional base. Professionals affiliated with one of
> the organizations are likely to build their professional values on the
> foundation of their affiliation's values. The unaffiliated
> professionals (and consumers) will have their own cultures, but that
> could be considered a major cultural grouping.
>
> A culture is a group of individuals sharing similar beliefs regarding
> human nature, relationships between time and space, traditions,
values,
> etc. Just because one individual belongs to one culture, that does not
> mean that the same individual cannot belong to other cultures
> concurrently; this principle is called intersectionality. It is true
> that an individual can belong to multiple cultural groups, but
strongly
> identify with some of their cultural markers over others for just
about
> any reason under the sun.
>
> I would be happy to argue the NFB as a culture, but that would take
> some time and a lot of analysis. And frankly, I'm just not up to the
> task at the moment. The bottom line is that, anthropologically
> speaking, the NFB is a culture and that you can certainly belong to
> such a culture and maintain your cultural identity outside of the NFB
> without compromising any and all of your cultural identities. Does
that
> make sense? The disability community also has multiple cultures, and
> these may or may not have anything to do with a specific disability,
> but may have more to do with how disability is defined. There are some
> disability cultures that the NFB would most certainly not identify
> with, others with which we would identify with some, and others with
> which we share much in common in terms of our core values related to
> the role of disability in our lives.
>
> Respectfully submitted
>
> Original message:
>> Jedi,
>>   I'm still not sold on the idea of a "disability
>> culture."...although, I think in the context of working with other
>> disability groups with a similar mindset to us, it makes sense.  But,
>> for me, the point of the NFB is empowering us to be part of whatever
>> culture we feel like with blindness being as minimal a factor as
>> possible.  I recognize that others have different interpretations of
>> how to apply NFB philosophy, but that's what it means to
>> me...blindness will not keep me from any of my goals in the world,
>> even though it places some limits in the way I have to overcome.  If
>> part of assessing our future is examining what NFB philosophy means
to
>> each of us, that's probably a good place for me to start.  Thoughts,
>> anyone?  Am I missing the mark?
>>   Best,
>> Kirt
>
>> On 3/12/11, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>>> There are a number of disability communities that share similar
beliefs
>>> to our own regarding disability. So, the thing we must do is ally
>>> ourselves with disability cultures similar to our own.
>
>>> Respectfully Submitted
>
>>> Original message:
>>>> Joe,
>
>>>> Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence
may
>>>> gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the
>>>> arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I
>>>> think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us
unless
>>>> we learn to be more inclusive.
>
>>>> But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years
ago
>>>> because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community
as a
>>>> whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs,
>>>> assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple
>>>> disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more
>>>> important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't
do
>>>> something in the future.
>
>>>> to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize
diversity
>>>> and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at
>>>> what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can
we
>>>> protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is
it
>>>> time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the
>>>> organization?
>
>>>> I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself.
>
>>>> Brice
>
>>>> On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Brice,
>
>>>>> You are the future of the NFB.  What do you think the organization
>>>>> should
>>>>> do
>>>>> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only
>>>>> disability
>>>>> affecting the membership?  Don't speculate about what may happen.
>>>>> Instead,
>>>>> tell us what you think should happen.
>
>>>>> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to
feel
>>>>> inferior because they have secondary disabilities.  There have
always
>>>>> been
>>>>> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but
the
>>>>> people
>>>>> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide
dog
>>>>> were
>>>>> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of
>>>>> travel
>>>>> tools.  I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people
>>>>> where
>>>>> they could stick their condescending views.  Anyway, I guess
Eleanor
>>>>> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you
feel
>>>>> inferior
>>>>> without your consent."
>
>>>>> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division
not
>>>>> being
>>>>> as promoted as the student or parent division?  They all get equal
>>>>> access
>>>>> to
>>>>> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might
simply
>>>>> be
>>>>> owed to the size comparison between the groups.  If divisions that
>>>>> focus
>>>>> on
>>>>> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left
out,
>>>>> it
>>>>> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything
worth
>>>>> promoting?
>
>>>>> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is
bogus.
>>>>> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between
national
>>>>> conventions.  Second, they create rifts in the membership when
>>>>> power-hungry
>>>>> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of
importance.
>>>>> Third,
>>>>> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at
the
>>>>> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community.  If I were
>>>>> president
>>>>> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to
eliminate
>>>>> divisions in the way they exist today.  There are so many
professional
>>>>> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups
within
>>>>> our
>>>>> ranks to create little havens for blind people.
>
>>>>> My point is this:  The NFB cannot exist without members like you.
You
>>>>> are
>>>>> the current youth and will be the future leader.  NFB members
spend so
>>>>> much
>>>>> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time
>>>>> acting,
>>>>> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial
idea
>>>>> that
>>>>> if
>>>>> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease
to
>>>>> exist
>>>>> in 50 years.  More on that point in a future post, but to answer
your
>>>>> question:  The way you accommodate people with secondary
disabilities
>>>>> is
>>>>> to
>>>>> encourage them to get involved.  Get on the boards and make the
>>>>> organization
>>>>> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics.  A
few
>>>>> years
>>>>> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a
GLBT
>>>>> division, they were told that with enough support, the division
would
>>>>> be
>>>>> established.  I think we're still waiting on this group to get
their
>>>>> act
>>>>> together about drumming up support.  It's not enough to complain
about
>>>>> what
>>>>> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is
not
>>>>> doing
>>>>> to accommodate certain members.  Just like the NFB as a whole has
to
>>>>> make
>>>>> a
>>>>> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be
>>>>> addressed,
>>>>> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and
make
>>>>> a
>>>>> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their
unique
>>>>> needs.
>
>>>>> Just my twenty dollar's worth,
>
>>>>> Joe
>
>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam
Ewing
>
>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
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0gmail.com
>
>
>
>>>> --
>>>> Brice Smith
>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations
>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>
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samobile.net
>
>>> --
>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
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>
>
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------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 08:48:52 -0400
From: Jewel <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
	<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] improving our divisions
Message-ID:
	<AANLkTim7Lg0RdtskHs0BjX71wBcDd8KwqQ+O5h4Z-Ty7 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Sean,
I also appreciate the Slate a lot. It's a good newsletter. Are you on
the NFB Editors list? We've been talking about newsletter construction
lately.

On 3/12/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Sean,
> I appreciate the efforts to get the slate out regularly!  I found the
> articles of high quality and
> inspiring.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sean Whalen
> Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 1:25 PM
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] improving our divisions
>
> Not to split hairs here, but the Student Slate has come out every
quarter,
> September, December, March and June, since this board was elected.
That is
> not "fairly" regularly, that is clockwork. Karen Anderson and I
promised
> that we would adhere to a schedule of quarterly publication, and we,
with
> the help of many of you who have written or helped to find articles,
have
> done exactly that. This is the first time in my limited memory that
this has
> been achieved, and, if I get the chance, I hope to do the same over
the next
> two years. I really encourage everybody on the list to at least glance
> through each issue to see if there are articles that pique your
interest. I
> feel that we have, generally speaking, had a very high level of
quality in
> the articles we have put out. The March 2011 issue will be out shortly
for
> those who are interested, and back issues can be found on
www.nabslink.org.
>
>
>
> Sorry, I'm not trying to shamelessly plug our work, but want everybody
to
> know that the resource is out there, as many of us put a good amount
of work
> into bringing each newsletter together.
>
>
>
> Take care,
>
>
>
> Sean
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40
gmail.com
>

-- 
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com

------------------------------

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End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 17
**************************************