[nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint

Thu Mar 17 14:35:20 UTC 2011

Joe,
  All I'm saying is this doesn't really solve the potential problem.
The press release mentions...what, 3 or 4 universities that are being
investigated.  I think probably a lot more than that use google aps,
and that number's certainly growing.  So is this just a way to bring
limited results and hopefully set a future precident?  Cause, four out
of hundreds of universities (maybe not that many are using google aps,
but four out of a lot who do), seems like a comparatively small
affair.
  Best,
Kirt

On 3/17/11, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com> wrote:
> Joe,
> Maybe you are right. I don't know if you know anything else about the
> complaint other than what the press release tells us, but I don't. The press
> release specifically says that Google apps doesn't let us use email and
> calendars, and that's not true. And if the NFB is going to complain about
> those to points, then they are wrong. If this whole argument comes from the
> fact that whoever prepared the press release didn't really know what the
> complaint was about and ended up providing readers with inaccurate
> information about it, then I don't really know what else to say...
>
> IC
> On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:04 AM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>
>> Ignasi,
>>
>> The complaint is not centered around the basic Google features: GMail,
>> Calendar, and Contacts.  You can't possibly think that schools are
>> leveraging the platform merely to give their students a different way to
>> communicate and keep track of their schedules?  It's about Docs, and Sites
>> and the other wide range of Google products that enrich the educational
>> field and provide the incentive for universities to completely switch out
>> their platforms.  The press release could have been written a little
>> better
>> to reflect this point, but understand there is more at consideration than
>> the basic features people use outside of schools and businesses.
>>
>> Kirt,
>>
>> I don't know that it's true the NFB has money to spare.  We need to
>> understand that despite our critics' position that we sue everyone under
>> the
>> sun, the leadership really does prioritize and act on cases with the most
>> immediate impact.  I'm glad that education is important enough to the
>> leadership for it to continue pursuing avenues to improve the quality of
>> studies for students.  For all their grumblings on the ACB student list,
>> I'm
>> not sure the ACB can claim the same high priority.
>>
>> Jorge,
>>
>> If an organization wants to get attention for themselves, they don't
>> attract
>> it by filing complaints against corporations, or in this case, educational
>> institutions.  In some rare cases negative publicity can be hammered into
>> something ultimately beneficial, but for a nonprofit with limited funds,
>> it
>> files complaints because change needs to happen and not because it hopes
>> its
>> opposition will suddenly change heart and applaud the NFB's efforts.
>> There
>> are enough projects to draw positive attention to its activities.
>>
>> Anyway, just my thoughts,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Ignasi Cambra
>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:37 AM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint
>>
>> Again, there is no way you can say that gmail is not accessible, even for
>> opening attachments. The default version of the site which comes up when
>> you
>> log in might not be perfectly accessible with all screen readers, but
>> there
>> is a link called "basic html" which you can use to switch to a different
>> version of the site, which does work very well with screen readers. You
>> can
>> navigate it by headers and attachments open just fine.
>> If you don't like that, you can always get emails from an email client
>> such
>> as Outlook, Thunderbird, Apple Mail...whatever you like!
>> The situation with google calendar is pretty much the same. The only big
>> problem comes with Google docs. To the best of my knowledge, that's
>> actually
>> not accessible as of today. Some office suites will allow you to retrieve
>> Google docs documents, work on them and save them. But the Google docs
>> site
>> itself is not accessible.
>> On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:27 AM, <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>> <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> My school, nova, uses the google email application too.  What I hate is
>> trying to open attachments.  They are so hard to find among the links and
>> text!
>>> You have to find the attachment link to click and download. Quite
>> frustrating.
>>> Yes colleges do have a choice and unfortunately when choosing software to
>> communicate in and out of class, accessibility is not considered.
>>> Ashley
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:01 AM
>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello All,
>>>
>>> I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know from
>> my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some
>> colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true
>> because
>> my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and
>> somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as
>> such
>> is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is choosing to
>> go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a choice in
>> what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic
>> information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college or
>> university to ensure that the software programs they use are accessible to
>> all students.
>>>
>>> Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth.
>>>
>>> Elizabeth
>>>
>>>
>>>> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600
>>>> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint
>>>>
>>>> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not
>>>> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I
>>>> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the
>>>> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably,
>>>> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some
>>>> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like
>>>> a stretch, but it's all I can think of.
>>>> Best,
>>>> Kirt
>>>>
>>>> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki <orangebutterfly87 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback
>>>>> from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things
>>>>> that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached
>>>>> google and offer to help with that process?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps
>>>>> complaint
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know,
>>>>> this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on
>>>>> this very list about
>>>>> precisely how accessible Google Apps are.
>>>>>
>>>>> Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to
>>>>> get attention.
>>>>>
>>>>> And get attention for what exactly?
>>>>>
>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of
>>>>>> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and
>>>>>> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an
>>>>>> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good
>>>>>> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other
>>>>>> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac,
>>>>>> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my
>>>>>> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and
>>>>>> add events etc.
>>>>>> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated
>>>>>> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be
>>>>>> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind
>>>>>> people in those universities is lying. My university uses
>>>>>> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use
>>>>>> it...!!
>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Precisely my thoughts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or Google?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix
>>>>>>> that problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just my thoughts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have
>>>>>>>> innovated and
>>>>>>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW
>>>>>>>> works, but
>>>>>>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies
>>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB
>>>>>>>> getting
>>>>>>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader
>>>>>>>> companies are
>>>>>>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused
>>>>>>>> to work on
>>>>>>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez <jorgeapaez at mac.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hello fellow NABS members.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National
>>>>>>>>> filed regarding
>>>>>>>>> universities using Google Apps.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but
>>>>>>>>>> the rest isn't.
>>>>>>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of
>>>>>>>>> yet),
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that
>>>>>>>>> everything be
>>>>>>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or
>>>>>>>>> are we complaining
>>>>>>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could
>>>>>>>>> potentially pose
>>>>>>>>> problems?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Nimer M. Jaber
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