[nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint

Thu Mar 17 14:59:26 UTC 2011

Yes, I think that's how cases normally work, since it's not feasible for a
plaintiff to go after every single offender engaged in the same wrongdoing.
Even if the case does not set a precedent, the publicity may motivate other
universities to evaluate Google Apps and maybe even encourage them to work
with Google to make the apps more accessible.  There are multiple benefits
that come from filing complaints.  The complaint itself is only the
foundation for the type of change that may evolve.

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Kirt Manwaring
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:35 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint

Joe,
  All I'm saying is this doesn't really solve the potential problem.
The press release mentions...what, 3 or 4 universities that are being
investigated.  I think probably a lot more than that use google aps,
and that number's certainly growing.  So is this just a way to bring
limited results and hopefully set a future precident?  Cause, four out
of hundreds of universities (maybe not that many are using google aps,
but four out of a lot who do), seems like a comparatively small
affair.
  Best,
Kirt

On 3/17/11, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com> wrote:
> Joe,
> Maybe you are right. I don't know if you know anything else about the
> complaint other than what the press release tells us, but I don't. The
press
> release specifically says that Google apps doesn't let us use email and
> calendars, and that's not true. And if the NFB is going to complain about
> those to points, then they are wrong. If this whole argument comes from
the
> fact that whoever prepared the press release didn't really know what the
> complaint was about and ended up providing readers with inaccurate
> information about it, then I don't really know what else to say...
>
> IC
> On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:04 AM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>
>> Ignasi,
>>
>> The complaint is not centered around the basic Google features: GMail,
>> Calendar, and Contacts.  You can't possibly think that schools are
>> leveraging the platform merely to give their students a different way to
>> communicate and keep track of their schedules?  It's about Docs, and
Sites
>> and the other wide range of Google products that enrich the educational
>> field and provide the incentive for universities to completely switch out
>> their platforms.  The press release could have been written a little
>> better
>> to reflect this point, but understand there is more at consideration than
>> the basic features people use outside of schools and businesses.
>>
>> Kirt,
>>
>> I don't know that it's true the NFB has money to spare.  We need to
>> understand that despite our critics' position that we sue everyone under
>> the
>> sun, the leadership really does prioritize and act on cases with the most
>> immediate impact.  I'm glad that education is important enough to the
>> leadership for it to continue pursuing avenues to improve the quality of
>> studies for students.  For all their grumblings on the ACB student list,
>> I'm
>> not sure the ACB can claim the same high priority.
>>
>> Jorge,
>>
>> If an organization wants to get attention for themselves, they don't
>> attract
>> it by filing complaints against corporations, or in this case,
educational
>> institutions.  In some rare cases negative publicity can be hammered into
>> something ultimately beneficial, but for a nonprofit with limited funds,
>> it
>> files complaints because change needs to happen and not because it hopes
>> its
>> opposition will suddenly change heart and applaud the NFB's efforts.
>> There
>> are enough projects to draw positive attention to its activities.
>>
>> Anyway, just my thoughts,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Ignasi Cambra
>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:37 AM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint
>>
>> Again, there is no way you can say that gmail is not accessible, even for
>> opening attachments. The default version of the site which comes up when
>> you
>> log in might not be perfectly accessible with all screen readers, but
>> there
>> is a link called "basic html" which you can use to switch to a different
>> version of the site, which does work very well with screen readers. You
>> can
>> navigate it by headers and attachments open just fine.
>> If you don't like that, you can always get emails from an email client
>> such
>> as Outlook, Thunderbird, Apple Mail...whatever you like!
>> The situation with google calendar is pretty much the same. The only big
>> problem comes with Google docs. To the best of my knowledge, that's
>> actually
>> not accessible as of today. Some office suites will allow you to retrieve
>> Google docs documents, work on them and save them. But the Google docs
>> site
>> itself is not accessible.
>> On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:27 AM, <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>> <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> My school, nova, uses the google email application too.  What I hate is
>> trying to open attachments.  They are so hard to find among the links and
>> text!
>>> You have to find the attachment link to click and download. Quite
>> frustrating.
>>> Yes colleges do have a choice and unfortunately when choosing software
to
>> communicate in and out of class, accessibility is not considered.
>>> Ashley
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:01 AM
>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello All,
>>>
>>> I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know
from
>> my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some
>> colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true
>> because
>> my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and
>> somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as
>> such
>> is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is choosing
to
>> go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a choice
in
>> what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic
>> information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college or
>> university to ensure that the software programs they use are accessible
to
>> all students.
>>>
>>> Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth.
>>>
>>> Elizabeth
>>>
>>>
>>>> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600
>>>> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint
>>>>
>>>> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not
>>>> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I
>>>> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the
>>>> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably,
>>>> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some
>>>> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like
>>>> a stretch, but it's all I can think of.
>>>> Best,
>>>> Kirt
>>>>
>>>> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki <orangebutterfly87 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback
>>>>> from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things
>>>>> that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached
>>>>> google and offer to help with that process?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps
>>>>> complaint
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know,
>>>>> this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on
>>>>> this very list about
>>>>> precisely how accessible Google Apps are.
>>>>>
>>>>> Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to
>>>>> get attention.
>>>>>
>>>>> And get attention for what exactly?
>>>>>
>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of
>>>>>> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and
>>>>>> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an
>>>>>> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good
>>>>>> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other
>>>>>> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac,
>>>>>> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my
>>>>>> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and
>>>>>> add events etc.
>>>>>> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated
>>>>>> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be
>>>>>> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind
>>>>>> people in those universities is lying. My university uses
>>>>>> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use
>>>>>> it...!!
>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Precisely my thoughts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or Google?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix
>>>>>>> that problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just my thoughts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have
>>>>>>>> innovated and
>>>>>>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW
>>>>>>>> works, but
>>>>>>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies
>>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB
>>>>>>>> getting
>>>>>>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader
>>>>>>>> companies are
>>>>>>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused
>>>>>>>> to work on
>>>>>>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez <jorgeapaez at mac.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hello fellow NABS members.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National
>>>>>>>>> filed regarding
>>>>>>>>> universities using Google Apps.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but
>>>>>>>>>> the rest isn't.
>>>>>>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of
>>>>>>>>> yet),
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that
>>>>>>>>> everything be
>>>>>>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or
>>>>>>>>> are we complaining
>>>>>>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could
>>>>>>>>> potentially pose
>>>>>>>>> problems?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Nimer M. Jaber
>>>>>>>>
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