[nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint

Thu Mar 17 15:52:56 UTC 2011

Hi all,

Does Google Calendar have a basic html option? If not, how do you
access it with JAWS?

Arielle

On 3/17/11, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, I think that's how cases normally work, since it's not feasible for a
> plaintiff to go after every single offender engaged in the same wrongdoing.
> Even if the case does not set a precedent, the publicity may motivate other
> universities to evaluate Google Apps and maybe even encourage them to work
> with Google to make the apps more accessible.  There are multiple benefits
> that come from filing complaints.  The complaint itself is only the
> foundation for the type of change that may evolve.
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Kirt Manwaring
> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:35 AM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint
>
> Joe,
>   All I'm saying is this doesn't really solve the potential problem.
> The press release mentions...what, 3 or 4 universities that are being
> investigated.  I think probably a lot more than that use google aps,
> and that number's certainly growing.  So is this just a way to bring
> limited results and hopefully set a future precident?  Cause, four out
> of hundreds of universities (maybe not that many are using google aps,
> but four out of a lot who do), seems like a comparatively small
> affair.
>   Best,
> Kirt
>
> On 3/17/11, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Joe,
>> Maybe you are right. I don't know if you know anything else about the
>> complaint other than what the press release tells us, but I don't. The
> press
>> release specifically says that Google apps doesn't let us use email and
>> calendars, and that's not true. And if the NFB is going to complain about
>> those to points, then they are wrong. If this whole argument comes from
> the
>> fact that whoever prepared the press release didn't really know what the
>> complaint was about and ended up providing readers with inaccurate
>> information about it, then I don't really know what else to say...
>>
>> IC
>> On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:04 AM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>>
>>> Ignasi,
>>>
>>> The complaint is not centered around the basic Google features: GMail,
>>> Calendar, and Contacts.  You can't possibly think that schools are
>>> leveraging the platform merely to give their students a different way to
>>> communicate and keep track of their schedules?  It's about Docs, and
> Sites
>>> and the other wide range of Google products that enrich the educational
>>> field and provide the incentive for universities to completely switch out
>>> their platforms.  The press release could have been written a little
>>> better
>>> to reflect this point, but understand there is more at consideration than
>>> the basic features people use outside of schools and businesses.
>>>
>>> Kirt,
>>>
>>> I don't know that it's true the NFB has money to spare.  We need to
>>> understand that despite our critics' position that we sue everyone under
>>> the
>>> sun, the leadership really does prioritize and act on cases with the most
>>> immediate impact.  I'm glad that education is important enough to the
>>> leadership for it to continue pursuing avenues to improve the quality of
>>> studies for students.  For all their grumblings on the ACB student list,
>>> I'm
>>> not sure the ACB can claim the same high priority.
>>>
>>> Jorge,
>>>
>>> If an organization wants to get attention for themselves, they don't
>>> attract
>>> it by filing complaints against corporations, or in this case,
> educational
>>> institutions.  In some rare cases negative publicity can be hammered into
>>> something ultimately beneficial, but for a nonprofit with limited funds,
>>> it
>>> files complaints because change needs to happen and not because it hopes
>>> its
>>> opposition will suddenly change heart and applaud the NFB's efforts.
>>> There
>>> are enough projects to draw positive attention to its activities.
>>>
>>> Anyway, just my thoughts,
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
> sleeves,
>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Ignasi Cambra
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:37 AM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint
>>>
>>> Again, there is no way you can say that gmail is not accessible, even for
>>> opening attachments. The default version of the site which comes up when
>>> you
>>> log in might not be perfectly accessible with all screen readers, but
>>> there
>>> is a link called "basic html" which you can use to switch to a different
>>> version of the site, which does work very well with screen readers. You
>>> can
>>> navigate it by headers and attachments open just fine.
>>> If you don't like that, you can always get emails from an email client
>>> such
>>> as Outlook, Thunderbird, Apple Mail...whatever you like!
>>> The situation with google calendar is pretty much the same. The only big
>>> problem comes with Google docs. To the best of my knowledge, that's
>>> actually
>>> not accessible as of today. Some office suites will allow you to retrieve
>>> Google docs documents, work on them and save them. But the Google docs
>>> site
>>> itself is not accessible.
>>> On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:27 AM, <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>> <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> My school, nova, uses the google email application too.  What I hate is
>>> trying to open attachments.  They are so hard to find among the links and
>>> text!
>>>> You have to find the attachment link to click and download. Quite
>>> frustrating.
>>>> Yes colleges do have a choice and unfortunately when choosing software
> to
>>> communicate in and out of class, accessibility is not considered.
>>>> Ashley
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth
>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:01 AM
>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello All,
>>>>
>>>> I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know
> from
>>> my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some
>>> colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true
>>> because
>>> my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and
>>> somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as
>>> such
>>> is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is choosing
> to
>>> go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a choice
> in
>>> what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic
>>> information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college or
>>> university to ensure that the software programs they use are accessible
> to
>>> all students.
>>>>
>>>> Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth.
>>>>
>>>> Elizabeth
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600
>>>>> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint
>>>>>
>>>>> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not
>>>>> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I
>>>>> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the
>>>>> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably,
>>>>> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some
>>>>> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like
>>>>> a stretch, but it's all I can think of.
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki <orangebutterfly87 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback
>>>>>> from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things
>>>>>> that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached
>>>>>> google and offer to help with that process?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps
>>>>>> complaint
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know,
>>>>>> this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on
>>>>>> this very list about
>>>>>> precisely how accessible Google Apps are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to
>>>>>> get attention.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And get attention for what exactly?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of
>>>>>>> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and
>>>>>>> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an
>>>>>>> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good
>>>>>>> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other
>>>>>>> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac,
>>>>>>> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my
>>>>>>> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and
>>>>>>> add events etc.
>>>>>>> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated
>>>>>>> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be
>>>>>>> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind
>>>>>>> people in those universities is lying. My university uses
>>>>>>> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use
>>>>>>> it...!!
>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Precisely my thoughts.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or Google?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix
>>>>>>>> that problem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have
>>>>>>>>> innovated and
>>>>>>>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW
>>>>>>>>> works, but
>>>>>>>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies
>>>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB
>>>>>>>>> getting
>>>>>>>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader
>>>>>>>>> companies are
>>>>>>>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused
>>>>>>>>> to work on
>>>>>>>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez <jorgeapaez at mac.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hello fellow NABS members.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National
>>>>>>>>>> filed regarding
>>>>>>>>>> universities using Google Apps.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but
>>>>>>>>>>> the rest isn't.
>>>>>>>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of
>>>>>>>>>> yet),
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that
>>>>>>>>>> everything be
>>>>>>>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or
>>>>>>>>>> are we complaining
>>>>>>>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could
>>>>>>>>>> potentially pose
>>>>>>>>>> problems?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Nimer M. Jaber
>>>>>>>>>
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-- 
Arielle Silverman
President, National Association of Blind Students
Phone:  602-502-2255
Email:
nabs.president at gmail.com
Website:
www.nabslink.org