[nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS

Tue May 3 02:55:33 UTC 2011

Agreed.  But as it stands now, I think we ought to bite the bullet and admit
that it's at least possible that at least for individuals who are totally
deaf and totally blind, traveling is a case of Russian Roulette.  I'm not
saying they shouldn't travel; I merely opine that neither they nor we should
kid ourselves.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Jedi
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 7:20 PM
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS

Mike,

I don't think there's anything wrong or illogical in taking the 
position that, in the case of the blind, good training and listening 
usually do the trick. But as we all know, the deaf-blind don't have the 
ability to look or listen, so they will need a few more adaptations 
than we do. I don't think that acknowledging this fact is a problem. Of 
course, we would also have to take the position that the deaf-blind 
should get much better travel training than they currently get in order 
to make special devices more useful to them, and we'd have to make 
devices that are actually useful to the deaf-blind.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> Arielle:

> I admire the clear presentation of your position.  And if an audible
traffic
> signal made one brief noise at the start of a WALK cycle and then shut up,
I
> wouldn't be so disenchanted with them.  However, I am one of those
> individuals who finds the majority of them distracting at a minimum.  And
I
> never found T intersections and turn-arrows to be a significant barrier to
> safe crossing; what *is* a barrier is cars that don't obey their *own*
> signals and APS's wouldn't help with this.

> Moreover, with respect to the deaf-blind, I think we of NFB and, for that
> matter, every other organization of the blind, speak with forked tongue.
> One the one hand, we often say that audible pedestrian signals are no
> substitute for good training and listening.  Yet we speak of having
> vibrotactile signals for the deaf-blind who, by definition, cannot listen.
> We can't have it both ways.  I know the deaf-blind don't like to hear this
> and we don't like to say it but methinks we need to adopt a consistent,
> congruent position on travel of the deaf-blind without reference to
> sentiment.

> Let the flames begin. (big smile)

> Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
> Of Arielle Silverman
> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 4:42 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS

> Hi Ashley and all,

> I don't know exactly what NFB's official position is at this point. I
> personally am a big fan of audible traffic signals, for a few reasons.
> First, as you pointed out, there are several kinds of intersections where
> the auditory cue to cross is rather subtle-such as T-intersections, those
> where the parallel street is generally quiet or those with leading turn
> arrows, where you have to listen for the turning traffic to stop before
> crossing. I know it is possible to reliably cross these kinds of
> intersections using traffic cues alone, but the potential for mistakes
(both
> missing the cue to cross and inadvertently crossing at the wrong time) is
> substantial especially for those who have had insufficient training.
Second,
> as far as I know, there is no reliable way to tell when your walk signal
is
> about to end. So if you come up to an intersection and the light is in
your
> favor, there's no way to tell whether you will have enough time to cross
> before the light changes. The only really safe way to handle this is to
wait
> until the light turns red and then green again, which can be inconvenient.
> Trust me, I've gambled on these and tried to cross without enough time-the
> result is scary not to mention embarrassing. Finally, though I know this
> logic is not always popular, I do think that if the sighted are given a
> clear cue to cross the street and it is not an undue hardship to make that
> signal accessible to the blind, it should be done. I can't imagine an
> intersection where sighted pedestrians are expected to watch the traffic
> without any kind of walk signal or light indicating when it was safe to
> cross.
> That being said, I don't think this necessarily has to be our biggest
> priority at this time. I also recognize that some blind travelers find
> audible signals bothersome and I would support some way of making the
sound
> optional or implementing a tactile (i.e. vibrating) signal, which would
also
> benefit the deaf-blind.

> Arielle

> On 5/2/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I thought it wasn't supposed to be enforced till like 2012?

>> On May 2, 2011, at 7:14 PM, <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:

>>> George,
>>> Actually the ACB seems as mad as ever; yes they won in the court; but
>>> the government has not produced accessible currency yet.
>>> Some do not feel the decision will be enforced.

>>> Ashley

>>> -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez
>>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 6:57 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible pedestrian signals APS

>>> I believe the national is officially against expanding the use of APS.

>>> As far as accessible currency, didn't the ACB already close that case
>>> in court?
>>> ACB V. US trasury 2009 or something like that?

>>> On May 2, 2011, at 6:36 PM, <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:

>>>> Hi all,

>>>> I am on the ACB list and as usual with controversial topics, they
>>>> are taking the Accessible pedestrian signal and accessible currency
>>>> topics and really trashing the NFB and they don't know the real
>>>> positions and facts.
>>>> They think NFB opposes both.
>>>> I may not tell them as they will not listen, but what are the
positions?
>>>> Nfb is not opposed to APS fully.

>>>> What is the national position? Any late resolutions?  Also, what do
>>>> you think and when have you found them helpful or not helpful?
>>>> Personally, I'd like the APS at intersections where you have to
>>>> press the walk button as a pedestrian.  We cannot see the walk
>>>> signal to know when our time starts; you have to press the button in
>>>> order to tell the computer that you are a pedestrian and need a walk
>>>> phase to cross the street.  I think these are called actuated
>>>> signals.  These streets favor drivers, not pedestrians; the busier
>>>> streets get more traffic time.  That change of the signal is activated
> by a computer.

>>>> At fixed time streets, those streets with a set time to cross,
>>>> without a button are easier IMO and you got sufficient traffic cues
>>>> to hear to cross.
>>>> I also think some streets are more complex now a days with more turn
>>>> lanes and islands, and a accessible signal would be great.  Some
>>>> signals even talk to you and count down the time left in the walk
> interval.

>>>> So I guess I see APS as a benefit  when you have insufficient
>>>> traffic cues to cross the street.  I've tried to learn how to cross
>>>> T streets, and those are confusing too; maybe the APS would help
>>>> there too.  No parallel traffic on T-shaped streets.

>>>> Look forward to your thoughts; I know NFB modified their position on
>>>> APS, so I'm not sure what it is now.  I certainly don't want them
>>>> everywhere, but in several cases with complex traffic patterns I can
see
> their use.

>>>> Ashley
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> --
> Arielle Silverman
> President, National Association of Blind Students
> Phone:  602-502-2255
> Email:
> nabs.president at gmail.com
> Website:
> www.nabslink.org

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