[nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB
Kirt Manwaring
kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
Sat May 21 00:57:08 UTC 2011
Jorge,
As I said, I don't agree with all the suits the Federation files.
But I guarantee you that, on the whole, there are a lot more
accessibility problems with google than some minor gmail issues-you're
the computer guy here, you probably know that better than me.
On 5/20/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
> and in the Google case?
>
> The only thing that was required if I uunderstand the Gmail interfase was a
> minor change in the HTML settings.
>
>
> On May 20, 2011, at 8:13 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>
>> Jorge,
>> That's just standard procedure for any organization and, from
>> talking with people in the thick of the politics, I've gotten the
>> impression that the NFB isn't any different. As a general rule, any
>> organization with a grievance against another entity will first
>> dialogue, then file a complaint, then look for a settlement-assuming a
>> settlement isn't reached, then the case goes to court. That's pretty
>> much standard legal procedure, and I'd be shocked if the NFB jumps
>> straight to suits whenever the opportunity presents itself.
>> Darian,
>> Amen!
>> Warmly,
>> Kirt
>>
>> On 5/20/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Kirt:
>>> I'm kinda taking this at face value, since the NFB has never refered to
>>> any
>>> negotiations before suing anyone.
>>> If however there is obvious negotiations before the law suit then that's
>>> a
>>> different story.
>>>
>>> On May 20, 2011, at 7:33 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jorge,
>>>> Well said. But we don't see all the dialogue and negotiations that
>>>> go on behind the scenes before something goes to court. Legal
>>>> representation isn't cheap (even for the NFB), court proceedings are
>>>> timely and cumbersome-noone wants to go to court if it can be avoided.
>>>> NFB included. Maybe we could do a better job publicizing the
>>>> dialogue we go through with people before we're compelled to go to
>>>> court.
>>>> I'm not saying I agree with every suit the Federation's been
>>>> involved in of late. But there are two sides to this issue and, more
>>>> often than not, suits are made only after efforts to go through
>>>> dialogue and mediation have proved fruitless. I'm sure the Federation
>>>> isn't an exception to that rule-perhaps someone more familiar with the
>>>> inner workings of national NFB politics can shed some light here.
>>>> Warmly,
>>>> Kirt
>>>> P.S. Jorge, I agree with most of your message-just the part about
>>>> suits made me want to open my big mouth. *grin*
>>>>
>>>> On 5/20/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Kirt:
>>>>> Agree completely.
>>>>> I think (and I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular), that there
>>>>> has
>>>>> been arrogance in some of our NFB members--weather in the leadership or
>>>>> out
>>>>> of it, which has damaged the whole organization.
>>>>> I'm saying its time we present ourselves in a calmer way.
>>>>> I'm not saying not to fight for our rights.
>>>>> If we lose our values we may as well lose the federation--our values is
>>>>> afterall what unites us, but we have to not have that "comply or I'll
>>>>> sue
>>>>> you" mentality, because honestly I'm getting the impression we
>>>>> sometimes
>>>>> don't even try and negotiate anything, and just sue companies without
>>>>> any
>>>>> kind of dialogue taking place outside of the court.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jorge
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 20, 2011, at 4:12 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>> Very true. But, from my experience, a lot of that boils down to how
>>>>>> we present our philosophy. I've heard comments from some TVIS like
>>>>>> "they wouldn't even listen to me", "they acted like I didn't even
>>>>>> matter", "they ignored everything I said", etc. While I'm not denying
>>>>>> our philosophy places us in conflict with some TVIS (not as many as
>>>>>> some people like to think), I think if we present our philosophy in a
>>>>>> level-headed, civil, agreeable manner, even those who disagree with us
>>>>>> will be more compelled to do so agreeably. Making the conflict less
>>>>>> vitriolic and bitter would do a lot to improve the way we're presented
>>>>>> by TVIS, even many of the TVIS who don't agree with our philosophy.
>>>>>> That's all I'm saying-I'm not saying we compromise the tenets we hold
>>>>>> dear, I'm not saying we change our philosophy, only that we respect
>>>>>> and sincerely make an effort to at least listen to the philosophies of
>>>>>> others without letting emotions get in the way.
>>>>>> Warmly,
>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith <dsmithnfb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> ... hate it when posts get cut off...
>>>>>>> Anyway, we should make the connection with TVIs, TTBs (whatever term
>>>>>>> you like to use) where we can and tell our story, or so I think.
>>>>>>> Have
>>>>>>> any folks found success in doing so in your respective divisions?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> what are ways people think we can do a better job as students in the
>>>>>>> organization of inviting younger students to get involved? how did
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> (if you are a middle/high school student) decide to get involved?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith <dsmithnfb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I think there are valid points to what both Mike and Kirt are
>>>>>>>> saying.
>>>>>>>> However, I would think you could make that argument for any segment
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the blindness community, and I think that as members of student
>>>>>>>> divisions-( the population that TVIs serve) we should make more of
>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>> effort wherever possible to reach those j population
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, no matter how reasonably we present ourselves,
>>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>>> philosophy in and of itself is such a threat to some TVIs that
>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>> ears
>>>>>>>>> are closed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>>> Of Kirt Manwaring
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 6:57 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Darian and all,
>>>>>>>>> I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission teachers.
>>>>>>>>> (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students,
>>>>>>>>> itinerate
>>>>>>>>> teachers, whatever) These are usually the people who give blind
>>>>>>>>> students,
>>>>>>>>> and their parents, first impressions about blindness and thus they
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> huge influence on whatever expectations a student or parent
>>>>>>>>> develops
>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>> what is possible as a blind person. I think we need to put a lot
>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>> energy in to sincerely dialoguing with these teachers, especially
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> reasonable ones who don't agree with us (I'm not saying all
>>>>>>>>> teachers
>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>> disagree with us are reasonable), to improve our image and the way
>>>>>>>>> we're
>>>>>>>>> presented to students. Because my state affiliate is pretty good
>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>> this,
>>>>>>>>> my TVI, although she disagreed with a lot of what the NFB does,
>>>>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>>>>> discourage me from coming to my own opinions and getting as much
>>>>>>>>> firsthand
>>>>>>>>> experience with the Federation as I could. Even those blindness
>>>>>>>>> professionals who disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> civil
>>>>>>>>> and courteous manner, direct students to our organization. It
>>>>>>>>> happened
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>>>> Warmest regards,
>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 5/19/11, Darian Smith <dsmithnfb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> the following "what ideas would you suggest to improve what you
>>>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>>> think needs improving?"
>>>>>>>>>> I think it's really easy for all of us to get into the habit of
>>>>>>>>>> mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's not so much a
>>>>>>>>>> matter
>>>>>>>>>> that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand,
>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are
>>>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>>>> very valuable. Remember, we never roll out of bed with the
>>>>>>>>>> answers!
>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>> Darian
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think we're doing enough with the
>>>>>>>>>>> middleschool/elementary
>>>>>>>>>>> population.
>>>>>>>>>>> We need to get the message out faster, to the younger kids.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think
>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>> this question?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" <th404 at comcast.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether or not we're doing anything to address how to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> communicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>> our message in a way that will reach people through new
>>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Darian Smith
>>>>>>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth
>>>>>>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter:
>>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> - Robert Byrne
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>> %40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Darian Smith
>>>>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth
>>>>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
>>>>>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> — Robert Byrne
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Darian Smith
>>>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth
>>>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
>>>>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> — Robert Byrne
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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