[nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB

Jorge Paez computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com
Sat May 21 00:30:39 UTC 2011 

and in the Google case?

The only thing that was required if I uunderstand the Gmail interfase was a minor change in the HTML settings.


On May 20, 2011, at 8:13 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:

> Jorge,
>  That's just standard procedure for any organization and, from
> talking with people in the thick of the politics, I've gotten the
> impression that the NFB isn't any different.  As a general rule, any
> organization with a grievance against another entity will first
> dialogue, then file a complaint, then look for a settlement-assuming a
> settlement isn't reached, then the case goes to court.  That's pretty
> much standard legal procedure, and I'd be shocked if the NFB jumps
> straight to suits whenever the opportunity presents itself.
>  Darian,
>  Amen!
>  Warmly,
> Kirt
> 
> On 5/20/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Kirt:
>> I'm kinda taking this at face value, since the NFB has never refered to any
>> negotiations before suing anyone.
>> If however there is obvious negotiations before the law suit then that's a
>> different story.
>> 
>> On May 20, 2011, at 7:33 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>> 
>>> Jorge,
>>> Well said.  But we don't see all the dialogue and negotiations that
>>> go on behind the scenes before something goes to court.  Legal
>>> representation isn't cheap (even for the NFB), court proceedings are
>>> timely and cumbersome-noone wants to go to court if it can be avoided.
>>> NFB included.  Maybe we could do a better job publicizing the
>>> dialogue we go through with people before we're compelled to go to
>>> court.
>>> I'm not saying I agree with every suit the Federation's been
>>> involved in of late.  But there are two sides to this issue and, more
>>> often than not, suits are made only after efforts to go through
>>> dialogue and mediation have proved fruitless.  I'm sure the Federation
>>> isn't an exception to that rule-perhaps someone more familiar with the
>>> inner workings of national NFB politics can shed some light here.
>>> Warmly,
>>> Kirt
>>> P.S.  Jorge, I agree with most of your message-just the part about
>>> suits made me want to open my big mouth.  *grin*
>>> 
>>> On 5/20/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi Kirt:
>>>> Agree completely.
>>>> I think (and I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular), that there has
>>>> been arrogance in some of our NFB members--weather in the leadership or
>>>> out
>>>> of it, which has damaged the whole organization.
>>>> I'm saying its time we present ourselves in a calmer way.
>>>> I'm not saying not to fight for our rights.
>>>> If we lose our values we may as well lose the federation--our values is
>>>> afterall what unites us, but we have to not have that "comply or I'll sue
>>>> you" mentality, because honestly I'm getting the impression we sometimes
>>>> don't even try and negotiate anything, and just sue companies without any
>>>> kind of dialogue taking place outside of the court.
>>>> 
>>>> Jorge
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On May 20, 2011, at 4:12 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Mike,
>>>>> Very true.  But, from my experience, a lot of that boils down to how
>>>>> we present our philosophy.  I've heard comments from some TVIS like
>>>>> "they wouldn't even listen to me", "they acted like I didn't even
>>>>> matter", "they ignored everything I said", etc.  While I'm not denying
>>>>> our philosophy places us in conflict with some TVIS (not as many as
>>>>> some people like to think), I think if we present our philosophy in a
>>>>> level-headed, civil, agreeable manner, even those who disagree with us
>>>>> will be more compelled to do so agreeably.  Making the conflict less
>>>>> vitriolic and bitter would do a lot to improve the way we're presented
>>>>> by TVIS, even many of the TVIS who don't agree with our philosophy.
>>>>> That's all I'm saying-I'm not saying we compromise the tenets we hold
>>>>> dear, I'm not saying we change our philosophy, only that we respect
>>>>> and sincerely make an effort to at least listen to the philosophies of
>>>>> others without letting emotions get in the way.
>>>>> Warmly,
>>>>> Kirt
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith <dsmithnfb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> ... hate it when posts get cut  off...
>>>>>> Anyway, we should make the connection with TVIs, TTBs (whatever term
>>>>>> you like to use) where we can and tell our story, or so I think.  Have
>>>>>> any folks found  success in  doing so in your respective divisions?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> what are ways people think we can do a better job as students in the
>>>>>> organization of inviting younger students to get involved? how did you
>>>>>> (if you are  a middle/high school student) decide to get involved?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 5/20/11, Darian Smith <dsmithnfb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> I think there are valid points to what both Mike and Kirt are saying.
>>>>>>> However, I would think you could make that argument for any segment of
>>>>>>> the blindness community, and I think that as members of student
>>>>>>> divisions-( the population that TVIs serve) we should  make more of an
>>>>>>> effort wherever possible to reach those j  population
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 5/19/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On the other hand, no matter how reasonably we present ourselves, our
>>>>>>>> philosophy in and of itself is such a threat to some TVIs that their
>>>>>>>> ears
>>>>>>>> are closed.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>> Of Kirt Manwaring
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 6:57 PM
>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] About the future of NABS and the NFB
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Darian and all,
>>>>>>>> I think sometimes we underestimate the role of vission teachers.
>>>>>>>> (call them what you want-TVIs, teachers of blind students, itinerate
>>>>>>>> teachers, whatever)  These are usually the people who give blind
>>>>>>>> students,
>>>>>>>> and their parents, first impressions about blindness and thus they
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> huge influence on whatever expectations a student or parent develops
>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> what is possible as a blind person.  I think we need to put a lot
>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>> energy in to sincerely dialoguing with these teachers, especially the
>>>>>>>> reasonable ones who don't agree with us (I'm not saying all teachers
>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>> disagree with us are reasonable), to improve our image and the way
>>>>>>>> we're
>>>>>>>> presented to students.  Because my state affiliate is pretty good at
>>>>>>>> this,
>>>>>>>> my TVI, although she disagreed with a lot of what the NFB does,
>>>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>>>> discourage me from coming to my own opinions and getting as much
>>>>>>>> firsthand
>>>>>>>> experience with the Federation as I could.  Even those blindness
>>>>>>>> professionals who disagree with us can, if we present ourselves in a
>>>>>>>> civil
>>>>>>>> and courteous manner, direct students to our organization.  It
>>>>>>>> happened
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>>> Warmest regards,
>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 5/19/11, Darian Smith <dsmithnfb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> You know, one thing that I would like to add to this discussion  is
>>>>>>>>> the following  "what ideas would you  suggest to improve what you
>>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>> think needs improving?"
>>>>>>>>> I think it's  really easy for all of us to get into the  habit of
>>>>>>>>> mentioning what isn't happening. Sometimes, it's  not so much a
>>>>>>>>> matter
>>>>>>>>> that no one is aware of an issue (sometimes, on the other hand,
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> in fact may be the case), but suggestions on how to improve are also
>>>>>>>>> very valuable.   Remember, we never roll out of bed with the
>>>>>>>>> answers!
>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>> Darian
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 5/19/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 	I don't think we're doing enough with the middleschool/elementary
>>>>>>>>>> population.
>>>>>>>>>> We need to get the message out faster, to the younger kids.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 9:00 PM, dsmithnfb at gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Let's bring this conversation fourth. What do people think  about
>>>>>>>>>>> this question?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On May 19, 2011, at 5:39 PM, "Tina Hansen" <th404 at comcast.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I wanted to know what people felt about the future of the NFB,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> whether or not we're doing anything to address how to communicate
>>>>>>>>>>>> our message in a way that will reach people through new
>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Darian Smith
>>>>>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth
>>>>>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter:
>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> - Robert Byrne
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> %40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Darian Smith
>>>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth
>>>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
>>>>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> — Robert Byrne
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Darian Smith
>>>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth
>>>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
>>>>>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> — Robert Byrne
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>> 
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>> 
>> 
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> 
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