[nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare

Wed May 25 16:33:02 UTC 2011

Bookshare is quality Braille?

Mike Freeman
sent from my iPhone

On May 25, 2011, at 4:19, "Sally Thomas" <seacknit at gmail.com> wrote:

> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce accessible textbooks.  That process is a bit different than the process need to translate novels into braille.  I think it's great that more and more books are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it would be foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility first when designing electronic files.  The NIMAC is the repository of accessible textbook files.  Textbook companies are required to make K-12 textbooks accessible.
> 
> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the hands of blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated process for producing quality braille.
> 
> Sally Thomas
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
> 
> 
> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot),
> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point
> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D
> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast.  I don't think it'll be too
> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker
> or smart phone with braille display.  The technology's out there, it
> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that
> trend's already started with Apple and Blio.  But it won't be too long
> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to
> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as
> using bookshare.  When that happens (and it's certainly not far off),
> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our
> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few
> posts.  *grin*  And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get
> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are
> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't
> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I
> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like
> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of
> getting them on a silver platter
> I'm done now,
> Kirt
> 
> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Julie,
>>  More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to
>> libraries or buying them hardcopy.  The ability to read mainstream
>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and
>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous
>> rate!  If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library
>> like everyone else does.  If we want to buy a hard copy braille book
>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to
>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them.  Maybe it's a worthwhile
>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so
>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else.  But if we want to get
>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it.  Just like everyone else.
>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple
>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here
>> and expanding fast!  Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be
>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options
>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else
>> and read them with braille displays?  If that's not hippocricy, I
>> honestly don't know what is.
>>  I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's
>> feelings.  But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please
>> don't take my passion as a personal attack.
>>  With respect,
>> Kirt
>> 
>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Well said.  I agree with those statements.
>>> 
>>> I was thinking about it that way as well.  What do sighted people do
>>> when they want a new book?  They go to the public library, or they go
>>> to Borders or some other book store.  Sometimes they go on Amazon and
>>> order hard copy books.
>>> 
>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily.  No, not
>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by
>>> the common people) for distribution.  But we need equal access to
>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them.
>>> 
>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access.  It doesn't mean
>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books
>>> just like the sighted people do.  It means that we can have the same
>>> choices as the sighted people.  Equal access, equal choices.  If we
>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be
>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that
>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from
>>> us in the guise of equal access.  Are all sighted people going to
>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices?  No.  Just
>>> us.  That just doesn't seem right to me.
>>> 
>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I
>>> find this is my opinion.  Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith <brice.smith319 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and
>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products,
>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal
>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental
>>>> problem with this article:
>>>> 
>>>> ":
>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually
>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot
>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of
>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The
>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those
>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of
>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS
>>>> up to these unfortunates?"
>>>> 
>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their
>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh.
>>>> 
>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately
>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many
>>>> users of BookShare  and NLS keep everything they download, and I would
>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a
>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping.
>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as
>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for
>>>> sighted individuals.
>>>> 
>>>> Brice
>>>> 
>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hey Guys:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh
>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted
>>>>> to get your thoughts.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of
>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should
>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from
>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's
>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and
>>>>> the NLS library service should go away.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts.
>>>>> 
>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille
>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books.
>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone
>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display
>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in
>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a
>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS.
>>>>> 
>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle
>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for
>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for
>>>>> reading.
>>>>> 
>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many
>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat
>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for
>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went
>>>>> away completely.
>>>>> 
>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion
>>>>> purposes.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Kerri
>>>>> 
>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion
>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt
>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that
>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of
>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the
>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we
>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle,
>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?"
>>>>> 
>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people
>>>>> with whom I’ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one
>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an
>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually
>>>>> impaired community.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let’s take a quick look at just
>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this
>>>>> question.
>>>>> 
>>>>> •In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously
>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with
>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the
>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with
>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing
>>>>> materials in accessible formats.
>>>>> •Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are
>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from
>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content
>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these
>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy.
>>>>> •Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable
>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast,
>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple’s iBooks and Amazon’s Kindle provide
>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices,
>>>>> including mobile phones.
>>>>> •Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a
>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large
>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient
>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove
>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer.
>>>>> •Many books are never made available in accessible formats through
>>>>> these
>>>>> bodies.
>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a
>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform,
>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one
>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in
>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated.
>>>>> 
>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however.
>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired
>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential
>>>>> treatment?"
>>>>> 
>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question.
>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise
>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in
>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries.
>>>>> 
>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability
>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply.
>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of
>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A
>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of
>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of
>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information
>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible
>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few
>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the
>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find
>>>>> none who would argue that point.
>>>>> 
>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline
>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask
>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or
>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The
>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers
>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment
>>>>> media such as music or movies.
>>>>> 
>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years
>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of
>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling,
>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those
>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only,
>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a
>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated
>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired
>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially
>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community,
>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD’s like everyone else?
>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at
>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or
>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text
>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn’t worth as much as we pay
>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community
>>>>> college?
>>>>> 
>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually
>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot
>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions.
>>>>> 
>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar
>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I’m
>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a
>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don’t we open
>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or
>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than
>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available
>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users
>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music.
>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which
>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens
>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at
>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn’t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch
>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage,
>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from
>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn’t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately
>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining
>>>>> books for their hard work?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community
>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon
>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at
>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our
>>>>> printed materials handed over for free?
>>>>> 
>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a
>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our
>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal
>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on
>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move
>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement?
>>>>> 
>>>>> I know which outcome I’m hoping for.
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Brice Smith
>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations
>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Julie McG
>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
>>> Eyes for the Blind
>>> 
>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
>>> life."
>>> John 3:16
>>> 
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>> 
> 
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