[nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare

Sally Thomas seacknit at gmail.com
Wed May 25 18:04:58 UTC 2011 

I was referring specifically to textbook NIMAC files.

Sally Thomas
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare


> Bookshare is quality Braille?
>
> Mike Freeman
> sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On May 25, 2011, at 4:19, "Sally Thomas" <seacknit at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce 
>> accessible textbooks.  That process is a bit different than the process 
>> need to translate novels into braille.  I think it's great that more and 
>> more books are easily accessible with the new technology available, but 
>> it would be foolish to assume that publishers are going to put 
>> accessibility first when designing electronic files.  The NIMAC is the 
>> repository of accessible textbook files.  Textbook companies are required 
>> to make K-12 textbooks accessible.
>>
>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the hands 
>> of blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated 
>> process for producing quality braille.
>>
>> Sally Thomas
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" 
>> <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
>>
>>
>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot),
>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point
>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D
>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast.  I don't think it'll be too
>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker
>> or smart phone with braille display.  The technology's out there, it
>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that
>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio.  But it won't be too long
>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to
>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as
>> using bookshare.  When that happens (and it's certainly not far off),
>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our
>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few
>> posts.  *grin*  And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get
>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are
>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't
>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I
>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like
>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of
>> getting them on a silver platter
>> I'm done now,
>> Kirt
>>
>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Julie,
>>>  More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to
>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy.  The ability to read mainstream
>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and
>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous
>>> rate!  If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library
>>> like everyone else does.  If we want to buy a hard copy braille book
>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to
>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them.  Maybe it's a worthwhile
>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so
>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else.  But if we want to get
>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it.  Just like everyone else.
>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple
>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here
>>> and expanding fast!  Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be
>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options
>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else
>>> and read them with braille displays?  If that's not hippocricy, I
>>> honestly don't know what is.
>>>  I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's
>>> feelings.  But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please
>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack.
>>>  With respect,
>>> Kirt
>>>
>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Well said.  I agree with those statements.
>>>>
>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well.  What do sighted people do
>>>> when they want a new book?  They go to the public library, or they go
>>>> to Borders or some other book store.  Sometimes they go on Amazon and
>>>> order hard copy books.
>>>>
>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily.  No, not
>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by
>>>> the common people) for distribution.  But we need equal access to
>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them.
>>>>
>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access.  It doesn't mean
>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books
>>>> just like the sighted people do.  It means that we can have the same
>>>> choices as the sighted people.  Equal access, equal choices.  If we
>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be
>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that
>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from
>>>> us in the guise of equal access.  Are all sighted people going to
>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices?  No.  Just
>>>> us.  That just doesn't seem right to me.
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I
>>>> find this is my opinion.  Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith <brice.smith319 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and
>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products,
>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal
>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental
>>>>> problem with this article:
>>>>>
>>>>> ":
>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually
>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot
>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of
>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The
>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those
>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of
>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS
>>>>> up to these unfortunates?"
>>>>>
>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their
>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately
>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many
>>>>> users of BookShare  and NLS keep everything they download, and I would
>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a
>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping.
>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as
>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for
>>>>> sighted individuals.
>>>>>
>>>>> Brice
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Hey Guys:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh
>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I 
>>>>>> wanted
>>>>>> to get your thoughts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of
>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should
>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from
>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and 
>>>>>> Apple's
>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and
>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille
>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books.
>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know 
>>>>>> (someone
>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display
>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books 
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a
>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle
>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for
>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for
>>>>>> reading.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many
>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat
>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for
>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went
>>>>>> away completely.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion
>>>>>> purposes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion
>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt
>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that
>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of
>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the
>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we
>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle,
>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people
>>>>>> with whom I’ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one
>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an
>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually
>>>>>> impaired community.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let’s take a quick look at just
>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this
>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> •In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously
>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with
>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the
>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with
>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing
>>>>>> materials in accessible formats.
>>>>>> •Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are
>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from
>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content
>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these
>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy.
>>>>>> •Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable
>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast,
>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple’s iBooks and Amazon’s Kindle provide
>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices,
>>>>>> including mobile phones.
>>>>>> •Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a
>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large
>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient
>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove
>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer.
>>>>>> •Many books are never made available in accessible formats through
>>>>>> these
>>>>>> bodies.
>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a
>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book 
>>>>>> platform,
>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one
>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept 
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, 
>>>>>> however.
>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired
>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential
>>>>>> treatment?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question.
>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were 
>>>>>> otherwise
>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities 
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability
>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply.
>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of
>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A
>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of
>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of
>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information
>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible
>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few
>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find
>>>>>> none who would argue that point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline
>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. 
>>>>>> Ask
>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or
>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The
>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers
>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment
>>>>>> media such as music or movies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years
>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of
>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling,
>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to 
>>>>>> those
>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only,
>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a
>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated
>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired
>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, 
>>>>>> especially
>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired 
>>>>>> community,
>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD’s like everyone 
>>>>>> else?
>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at
>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or
>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text
>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn’t worth as much as we 
>>>>>> pay
>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community
>>>>>> college?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually
>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot
>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar
>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I’m
>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a
>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don’t we open
>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or
>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than
>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is 
>>>>>> available
>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users
>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or 
>>>>>> music.
>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which
>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and 
>>>>>> tens
>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at
>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn’t even to mention the fact that the iPod 
>>>>>> touch
>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more 
>>>>>> storage,
>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get 
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn’t money saved by integrated solutions 
>>>>>> ultimately
>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining
>>>>>> books for their hard work?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired 
>>>>>> community
>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like 
>>>>>> Amazon
>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at
>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our
>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a
>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our
>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension 
>>>>>> equal
>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on
>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move
>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know which outcome I’m hoping for.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Brice Smith
>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations
>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Julie McG
>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
>>>> Eyes for the Blind
>>>>
>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
>>>> life."
>>>> John 3:16
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com
>

More information about the NABS-L mailing list