[nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare

[Kirt Manwaring]

Ashley,
  You're supposed to return a cd from learning ally-I think I still
have some old ones from years ago hiding in my room somewhere, and
noone's so much as sent me a notice so I'm not sure how much that's
actually enforced.  NLS enforces that policy pretty good-except there
aren't fines or anything for lost books...they just put it in as
"lost" in their files and that's the end of that.  Don't ask me how I
know...suffice it to say that, were I a user of regular libraries, I'd
have a lot less money to play with.  *grin*  So no, the return
policies aren't exactly the same, at least as they're enforced in real
life.  Oh-and for the record, my days of losing library books ended a
long time ago.  Mostly.
  Best,
Kirt

On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> Kevin,
>   There are some textbooks for which bookshare isn't all that
> practical.  For instance, I took a logic class last semester where
> they used all sorts of symbols that aren't in any braille code...I
> kind of had to make my own personal logic-braille.  (which I mostly
> used on paper because there just weren't symbols in the braille code
> for what I needed)  Bookshare couldn't handle those kinds of books.
> From my understanding, Mike was talking about the technical aspect
> more than the legal aspect.  (i.e, rendering books like my logic book
> accessible in electronic braille).  Mike, am I understanding you
> wrong?
>   Best,
> Kirt
>
> On 5/25/11, Kevin Fjelsted <kfjelsted at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I actually don't think it would take any new laws.
>> I think the department of education could write the regulations for this
>> based on existing law.
>> The federal government is great and producing basketful's of paper
>> regulations.
>> The key is that the disability funding has a major share that comes from
>> the
>> federal government.
>> So if the department of education and the other agencies combined there
>> efforts around funding and states that disability services ors need to
>> provide to a central location the title and contents of any books that
>> they
>> need to convert.
>> The department of education doesn't need to build another database or
>> storage structure because they already fund a major part of BookShare.
>> -Kevin
>>
>>
>> On May 25, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>
>>> Kevin: How would such a law be implemented in the case of technical
>>> materials? Seems to me we have a way to go before imposing such
>>> strictures
>>> on DSS departments, much as these would be desirable in the abstract.
>>>
>>> Mike Freeman
>>> sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 25, 2011, at 13:39, Kevin Fjelsted <kfjelsted at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be to
>>>> work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any
>>>> University
>>>> or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability
>>>> services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS
>>>> department creates to BookShare.
>>>> Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books would
>>>> be scanned and uploaded by volunteers.
>>>> The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and
>>>> cataloging of accessible books.
>>>> Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of
>>>> funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge
>>>> funding
>>>> to disability services this process if mandated by the federal
>>>> government
>>>> could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and insure
>>>> that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted as
>>>> well as the actual book itself.
>>>>
>>>> Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that are
>>>> available in accessible format or loose there federal disability
>>>> funding
>>>> then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on BookShare.
>>>> I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and provide
>>>> a
>>>> common format that we can use across the various devices and accessible
>>>> software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and pray
>>>> that I can find an accessible version.
>>>>
>>>> We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there is
>>>> not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum to
>>>> create accessible material.
>>>> -Kevin
>>>>
>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of
>>>>> books
>>>>> via NLS or  bookshare.
>>>>> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or
>>>>> cheap
>>>>> online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap.  Yes
>>>>> novels
>>>>> are easily rendered accessible.  But I don't think many ebook readers
>>>>> are accessible.
>>>>> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they
>>>>> silenced speech?
>>>>> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And as
>>>>> a
>>>>> personal example, my library has ebooks too.
>>>>> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws was
>>>>> only reading the title, not the entire page!
>>>>> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If ebook
>>>>> readers were actually accessible, then we can think about eliminating
>>>>> what you call preferential treatment.
>>>>> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the ebooks
>>>>> and
>>>>> myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
>>>>> Bookshare
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve,
>>>>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email.  If access to
>>>>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we
>>>>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally
>>>>> for free?  I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of
>>>>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook
>>>>> lending libraries do.  (overdrive anyone?)  But if we can read our
>>>>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them
>>>>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare
>>>>> or learning ally for free?  Sounds like preferential treatment to me,
>>>>> at least with books that aren't textbooks.
>>>>> Warmly,
>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Steve,
>>>>>> Fair enough.  I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too
>>>>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front.  And scientific/math
>>>>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't
>>>>>> it?
>>>>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances,
>>>>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation
>>>>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics with
>>>>>> the braille pins or something.  It'll need to be that drastic, I
>>>>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even
>>>>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll
>>>>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of
>>>>>> what happens to bookshare.  I certainly wouldn't trust a math or
>>>>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with
>>>>>> literary braille.
>>>>>> I see your point about brand names.  But when one of those brands is
>>>>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about
>>>>>> that brand providing braille support.  It's not a guarantee of course
>>>>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it
>>>>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and
>>>>>> braille
>>>>>> access will improve.  I hope the good people at KNFB don't
>>>>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility so
>>>>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark.
>>>>>> Warmly,
>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some
>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>> happening that hold great promise.  I think that giving us access to
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> novel, for
>>>>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases.  We need
>>>>>>> access
>>>>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream
>>>>>>> titles,
>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and math
>>>>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed.  This
>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> be that
>>>>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in
>>>>>>> textbooks.
>>>>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally will
>>>>>>> concentrate on making
>>>>>>> the various drawings accessible.  They might then create a final
>>>>>>> product
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>> available.  I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to
>>>>>>> create
>>>>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just taking
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> same text
>>>>>>> and making it available in another format.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> name
>>>>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company.  We don't know what
>>>>>>> sort
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time.  The
>>>>>>> industry
>>>>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency.  What if some
>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is
>>>>>>> hard
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> make accessible.  My point isn't that there isn't reason to have
>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>> hope,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer
>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case
>>>>>>> eventually.
>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to
>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible.  Even with their efforts, our governor
>>>>>>> yesterday
>>>>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible.  I
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible
>>>>>>> PDF's
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> 2011.  We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology
>>>>>>> goes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Steve and Mike,
>>>>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard.
>>>>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature?
>>>>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel?  Are you saying that an ebook
>>>>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not become
>>>>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access?  That seems a
>>>>>>>> bit
>>>>>>>> silly to me.  What about websites like coursesmart?  You guys know
>>>>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving fast
>>>>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille.
>>>>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read
>>>>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare.  If we want to read
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those
>>>>>>>> expensive
>>>>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology
>>>>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or coursesmart
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel.  We'd just have to pay
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very
>>>>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI.
>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner <liziswhatis at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with
>>>>>>>>> BookShare
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that quality
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> BKS
>>>>>>>>> books has improved over the years.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Liz Bottner
>>>>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council
>>>>>>>>> GEB Voicemail:  800-942-0149 Ext. 2531
>>>>>>>>> e-mail:
>>>>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal:
>>>>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com
>>>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter:
>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
>>>>>>>>> Bookshare
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce
>>>>>>>>> accessible
>>>>>>>>> textbooks.  That process is a bit different than the process need
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> translate novels into braille.  I think it's great that more and
>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>> books
>>>>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it
>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility
>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>>> designing electronic files.  The NIMAC is the repository of
>>>>>>>>> accessible
>>>>>>>>> textbook files.  Textbook companies are required to make K-12
>>>>>>>>> textbooks
>>>>>>>>> accessible.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the
>>>>>>>>> hands
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a
>>>>>>>>> dedicated
>>>>>>>>> process for producing quality braille.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
>>>>>>>>> Bookshare
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot),
>>>>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point
>>>>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or
>>>>>>>>> RFB&D
>>>>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast.  I don't think it'll be
>>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your
>>>>>>>>> notetaker
>>>>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display.  The technology's out there,
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio.  But it won't be too
>>>>>>>>> long
>>>>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we
>>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as
>>>>>>>>> using bookshare.  When that happens (and it's certainly not far
>>>>>>>>> off),
>>>>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our
>>>>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few
>>>>>>>>> posts.  *grin*  And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to
>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library
>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just
>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of
>>>>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter
>>>>>>>>> I'm done now,
>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Julie,
>>>>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy.  The ability to read
>>>>>>>>>> mainstream
>>>>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and
>>>>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous
>>>>>>>>>> rate!  If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a
>>>>>>>>>> library
>>>>>>>>>> like everyone else does.  If we want to buy a hard copy braille
>>>>>>>>>> book
>>>>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people
>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them.  Maybe it's a
>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile
>>>>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar
>>>>>>>>>> bookstores
>>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else.  But if we want
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it.  Just like everyone
>>>>>>>>>> else.
>>>>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple
>>>>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already
>>>>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>>>>> and expanding fast!  Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be
>>>>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have
>>>>>>>>>> options
>>>>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone
>>>>>>>>>> else
>>>>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays?  If that's not hippocricy, I
>>>>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is.
>>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's
>>>>>>>>>> feelings.  But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please
>>>>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack.
>>>>>>>>>> With respect,
>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Well said.  I agree with those statements.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well.  What do sighted
>>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>> when they want a new book?  They go to the public library, or
>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store.  Sometimes they go on
>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> order hard copy books.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily.
>>>>>>>>>>> No,
>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just
>>>>>>>>>>> embossed
>>>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution.  But we need equal access
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get
>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access.  It doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download
>>>>>>>>>>> books
>>>>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do.  It means that we can have the
>>>>>>>>>>> same
>>>>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people.  Equal access, equal choices.  If
>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be
>>>>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away
>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access.  Are all sighted people going
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices?  No.
>>>>>>>>>>> Just
>>>>>>>>>>> us.  That just doesn't seem right to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things,
>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion.  Sorry for subjecting you to my
>>>>>>>>>>> rambles.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith <brice.smith319 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to
>>>>>>>>>>>> me,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple
>>>>>>>>>>>> products,
>>>>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire
>>>>>>>>>>>> equal
>>>>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR,
>>>>>>>>>>>> fundamental
>>>>>>>>>>>> problem with this article:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ":
>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of
>>>>>>>>>>>> visually
>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply
>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of
>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The
>>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>> NLS
>>>>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at
>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I
>>>>>>>>>>>> immediately
>>>>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that
>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare  and NLS keep everything they download, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved
>>>>>>>>>>>> towards
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and
>>>>>>>>>>>> keeping.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for
>>>>>>>>>>>> books
>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for
>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh
>>>>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rise
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we
>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> future?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille
>>>>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle
>>>>>>>>>>>>> books.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (someone
>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille
>>>>>>>>>>>>> display
>>>>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> books
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those
>>>>>>>>>>>>> voices
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into
>>>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat
>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks
>>>>>>>>>>>>> app
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare
>>>>>>>>>>>>> went
>>>>>>>>>>>>> away completely.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>> purposes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt
>>>>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why
>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several
>>>>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired community.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look
>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now
>>>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously
>>>>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> students
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> providing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content
>>>>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump
>>>>>>>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise
>>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle
>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream
>>>>>>>>>>>>> devices,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org),
>>>>>>>>>>>>> charge
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume
>>>>>>>>>>>>> large
>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cost-efficient
>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> prove
>>>>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats
>>>>>>>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bodies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons
>>>>>>>>>>>>> why
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book
>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No
>>>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always
>>>>>>>>>>>>> kept
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> however.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> preferential
>>>>>>>>>>>>> treatment?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were
>>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise
>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other
>>>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> availability
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sharply.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wealth
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A
>>>>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 93%
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> information
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more
>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible
>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> past.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Few
>>>>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound
>>>>>>>>>>>>> impact
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who
>>>>>>>>>>>>> regularly,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers
>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainment
>>>>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Inkling,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> only,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving
>>>>>>>>>>>>> toward
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> integrated
>>>>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially
>>>>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>> community,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like
>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>> else?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructional
>>>>>>>>>>>>> text
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local
>>>>>>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>>>>>>> college?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> similar
>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> love a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we
>>>>>>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less
>>>>>>>>>>>>> capable
>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> available
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>> users
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> music.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tens
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities
>>>>>>>>>>>>> starting
>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPod
>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch
>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more
>>>>>>>>>>>>> storage,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users
>>>>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertaining
>>>>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies
>>>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet
>>>>>>>>>>>>> balks
>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by
>>>>>>>>>>>>> extension
>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal
>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> move
>>>>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma
>>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith
>>>>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public
>>>>>>>>>>>> Relations
>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co
>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Julie McG
>>>>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in
>>>>>>>>>>> Opera
>>>>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of
>>>>>>>>>>> Guiding
>>>>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
>>>>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
>>>>>>>>>>> life."
>>>>>>>>>>> John 3:16
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma
>>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> l.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
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>