[nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare

[Kirt Manwaring]

Ashley,
  If your braille display breaks and you're unemployed...good luck
reading bookshare books in braille.  Using those ebook readers and
paying for a couple books with SSI would probably be one of the few
options you had left- or you might have to rely on the hardcopy
braille books the NLS provides.  Do you see my point?  The problem of
expensive braille displays, and getting them with little or no income,
will be there no matter if we're using bookshare or blio to get our
braille books.

On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> Ashley,
>   You're supposed to return a cd from learning ally-I think I still
> have some old ones from years ago hiding in my room somewhere, and
> noone's so much as sent me a notice so I'm not sure how much that's
> actually enforced.  NLS enforces that policy pretty good-except there
> aren't fines or anything for lost books...they just put it in as
> "lost" in their files and that's the end of that.  Don't ask me how I
> know...suffice it to say that, were I a user of regular libraries, I'd
> have a lot less money to play with.  *grin*  So no, the return
> policies aren't exactly the same, at least as they're enforced in real
> life.  Oh-and for the record, my days of losing library books ended a
> long time ago.  Mostly.
>   Best,
> Kirt
>
> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Kevin,
>>   There are some textbooks for which bookshare isn't all that
>> practical.  For instance, I took a logic class last semester where
>> they used all sorts of symbols that aren't in any braille code...I
>> kind of had to make my own personal logic-braille.  (which I mostly
>> used on paper because there just weren't symbols in the braille code
>> for what I needed)  Bookshare couldn't handle those kinds of books.
>> From my understanding, Mike was talking about the technical aspect
>> more than the legal aspect.  (i.e, rendering books like my logic book
>> accessible in electronic braille).  Mike, am I understanding you
>> wrong?
>>   Best,
>> Kirt
>>
>> On 5/25/11, Kevin Fjelsted <kfjelsted at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I actually don't think it would take any new laws.
>>> I think the department of education could write the regulations for this
>>> based on existing law.
>>> The federal government is great and producing basketful's of paper
>>> regulations.
>>> The key is that the disability funding has a major share that comes from
>>> the
>>> federal government.
>>> So if the department of education and the other agencies combined there
>>> efforts around funding and states that disability services ors need to
>>> provide to a central location the title and contents of any books that
>>> they
>>> need to convert.
>>> The department of education doesn't need to build another database or
>>> storage structure because they already fund a major part of BookShare.
>>> -Kevin
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 25, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Kevin: How would such a law be implemented in the case of technical
>>>> materials? Seems to me we have a way to go before imposing such
>>>> strictures
>>>> on DSS departments, much as these would be desirable in the abstract.
>>>>
>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>> sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 13:39, Kevin Fjelsted <kfjelsted at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be to
>>>>> work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any
>>>>> University
>>>>> or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability
>>>>> services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS
>>>>> department creates to BookShare.
>>>>> Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books
>>>>> would
>>>>> be scanned and uploaded by volunteers.
>>>>> The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and
>>>>> cataloging of accessible books.
>>>>> Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of
>>>>> funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge
>>>>> funding
>>>>> to disability services this process if mandated by the federal
>>>>> government
>>>>> could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and
>>>>> insure
>>>>> that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted as
>>>>> well as the actual book itself.
>>>>>
>>>>> Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that are
>>>>> available in accessible format or loose there federal disability
>>>>> funding
>>>>> then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on
>>>>> BookShare.
>>>>> I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and provide
>>>>> a
>>>>> common format that we can use across the various devices and
>>>>> accessible
>>>>> software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and pray
>>>>> that I can find an accessible version.
>>>>>
>>>>> We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there
>>>>> is
>>>>> not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum to
>>>>> create accessible material.
>>>>> -Kevin
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of
>>>>>> books
>>>>>> via NLS or  bookshare.
>>>>>> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or
>>>>>> cheap
>>>>>> online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap.  Yes
>>>>>> novels
>>>>>> are easily rendered accessible.  But I don't think many ebook readers
>>>>>> are accessible.
>>>>>> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they
>>>>>> silenced speech?
>>>>>> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> personal example, my library has ebooks too.
>>>>>> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> only reading the title, not the entire page!
>>>>>> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If
>>>>>> ebook
>>>>>> readers were actually accessible, then we can think about eliminating
>>>>>> what you call preferential treatment.
>>>>>> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the ebooks
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
>>>>>> Bookshare
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve,
>>>>>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email.  If access to
>>>>>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we
>>>>>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally
>>>>>> for free?  I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of
>>>>>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook
>>>>>> lending libraries do.  (overdrive anyone?)  But if we can read our
>>>>>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them
>>>>>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare
>>>>>> or learning ally for free?  Sounds like preferential treatment to me,
>>>>>> at least with books that aren't textbooks.
>>>>>> Warmly,
>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Steve,
>>>>>>> Fair enough.  I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too
>>>>>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front.  And scientific/math
>>>>>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't
>>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances,
>>>>>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation
>>>>>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> the braille pins or something.  It'll need to be that drastic, I
>>>>>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even
>>>>>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll
>>>>>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of
>>>>>>> what happens to bookshare.  I certainly wouldn't trust a math or
>>>>>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with
>>>>>>> literary braille.
>>>>>>> I see your point about brand names.  But when one of those brands is
>>>>>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about
>>>>>>> that brand providing braille support.  It's not a guarantee of
>>>>>>> course
>>>>>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it
>>>>>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and
>>>>>>> braille
>>>>>>> access will improve.  I hope the good people at KNFB don't
>>>>>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility
>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark.
>>>>>>> Warmly,
>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some
>>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>>> happening that hold great promise.  I think that giving us access
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> novel, for
>>>>>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases.  We
>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>> access
>>>>>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream
>>>>>>>> titles,
>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and
>>>>>>>> math
>>>>>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed.  This
>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> be that
>>>>>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in
>>>>>>>> textbooks.
>>>>>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> concentrate on making
>>>>>>>> the various drawings accessible.  They might then create a final
>>>>>>>> product
>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>>> available.  I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to
>>>>>>>> create
>>>>>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just
>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> same text
>>>>>>>> and making it available in another format.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> name
>>>>>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company.  We don't know
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> sort
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time.  The
>>>>>>>> industry
>>>>>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency.  What if
>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is
>>>>>>>> hard
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> make accessible.  My point isn't that there isn't reason to have
>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>> hope,
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer
>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case
>>>>>>>> eventually.
>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to
>>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible.  Even with their efforts, our governor
>>>>>>>> yesterday
>>>>>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible.
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible
>>>>>>>> PDF's
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> 2011.  We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology
>>>>>>>> goes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Steve and Mike,
>>>>>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard.
>>>>>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature?
>>>>>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel?  Are you saying that an ebook
>>>>>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not
>>>>>>>>> become
>>>>>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access?  That seems a
>>>>>>>>> bit
>>>>>>>>> silly to me.  What about websites like coursesmart?  You guys know
>>>>>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving
>>>>>>>>> fast
>>>>>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille.
>>>>>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read
>>>>>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare.  If we want to read
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those
>>>>>>>>> expensive
>>>>>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology
>>>>>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or
>>>>>>>>> coursesmart
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel.  We'd just have to pay
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very
>>>>>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI.
>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner <liziswhatis at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with
>>>>>>>>>> BookShare
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that
>>>>>>>>>> quality
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> BKS
>>>>>>>>>> books has improved over the years.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Liz Bottner
>>>>>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council
>>>>>>>>>> GEB Voicemail:  800-942-0149 Ext. 2531
>>>>>>>>>> e-mail:
>>>>>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal:
>>>>>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com
>>>>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter:
>>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM
>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce
>>>>>>>>>> accessible
>>>>>>>>>> textbooks.  That process is a bit different than the process need
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> translate novels into braille.  I think it's great that more and
>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>> books
>>>>>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it
>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility
>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>>>> designing electronic files.  The NIMAC is the repository of
>>>>>>>>>> accessible
>>>>>>>>>> textbook files.  Textbook companies are required to make K-12
>>>>>>>>>> textbooks
>>>>>>>>>> accessible.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> hands
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a
>>>>>>>>>> dedicated
>>>>>>>>>> process for producing quality braille.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot),
>>>>>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the
>>>>>>>>>> point
>>>>>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or
>>>>>>>>>> RFB&D
>>>>>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast.  I don't think it'll be
>>>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your
>>>>>>>>>> notetaker
>>>>>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display.  The technology's out there,
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio.  But it won't be too
>>>>>>>>>> long
>>>>>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we
>>>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as
>>>>>>>>>> using bookshare.  When that happens (and it's certainly not far
>>>>>>>>>> off),
>>>>>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our
>>>>>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last
>>>>>>>>>> few
>>>>>>>>>> posts.  *grin*  And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library
>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every
>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just
>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of
>>>>>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter
>>>>>>>>>> I'm done now,
>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Julie,
>>>>>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy.  The ability to read
>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream
>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a
>>>>>>>>>>> tremendous
>>>>>>>>>>> rate!  If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a
>>>>>>>>>>> library
>>>>>>>>>>> like everyone else does.  If we want to buy a hard copy braille
>>>>>>>>>>> book
>>>>>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people
>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them.  Maybe it's a
>>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile
>>>>>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar
>>>>>>>>>>> bookstores
>>>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else.  But if we want
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it.  Just like everyone
>>>>>>>>>>> else.
>>>>>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple
>>>>>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already
>>>>>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>>>>>> and expanding fast!  Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be
>>>>>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have
>>>>>>>>>>> options
>>>>>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone
>>>>>>>>>>> else
>>>>>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays?  If that's not hippocricy,
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is.
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's
>>>>>>>>>>> feelings.  But I obviously feel pretty strongly about
>>>>>>>>>>> this-please
>>>>>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack.
>>>>>>>>>>> With respect,
>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Well said.  I agree with those statements.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well.  What do sighted
>>>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>> when they want a new book?  They go to the public library, or
>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store.  Sometimes they go on
>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> order hard copy books.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily.
>>>>>>>>>>>> No,
>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just
>>>>>>>>>>>> embossed
>>>>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution.  But we need equal access
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can
>>>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access.  It doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download
>>>>>>>>>>>> books
>>>>>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do.  It means that we can have the
>>>>>>>>>>>> same
>>>>>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people.  Equal access, equal choices.
>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones,
>>>>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away
>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access.  Are all sighted people going
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices?  No.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Just
>>>>>>>>>>>> us.  That just doesn't seem right to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random
>>>>>>>>>>>> things,
>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion.  Sorry for subjecting you to my
>>>>>>>>>>>> rambles.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith <brice.smith319 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> me,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple
>>>>>>>>>>>>> products,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire
>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal
>>>>>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fundamental
>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem with this article:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ":
>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The
>>>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure
>>>>>>>>>>>>> trove
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NLS
>>>>>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> immediately
>>>>>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare  and NLS keep everything they download, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved
>>>>>>>>>>>>> towards
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> keeping.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> books
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Josh
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rise
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (someone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voices
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> app
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> went
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> away completely.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purposes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Twitter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couple
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired community.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> students
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> providing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contrast,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> devices,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> charge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> large
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cost-efficient
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prove
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> retailer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bodies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kept
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> however.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> preferential
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treatment?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> availability
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sharply.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wealth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 93%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impact
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regularly,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> readers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Inkling,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> toward
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> integrated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> else?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructional
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> text
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> college?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> similar
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> love a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> music.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tens
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> starting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPod
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> storage,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertaining
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extension
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ourselves
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> move
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma
>>>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith
>>>>>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Relations
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co
>>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Julie McG
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in
>>>>>>>>>>>> Opera
>>>>>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of
>>>>>>>>>>>> Guiding
>>>>>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have
>>>>>>>>>>>> eternal
>>>>>>>>>>>> life."
>>>>>>>>>>>> John 3:16
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma
>>>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>> l.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>