[nabs-l] your messages are getting... nabs-l Digest, Vol 55, Issue 50
Front Desk of the YB RESOURCEFUL Consulting Talents(YBRCT)-A Resourceful Consulting ToolBox www.YBResourceful.com
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Thu May 26 02:25:38 UTC 2011
Greetings everyone:
Just wanted to let you know, that some of you have really messages on
certain topics. You should consider calling the person on phone/and instent
messenging and talk more on the topic with them, rather than posting million
lines of words on a group mailing.
Thanks, avoid typing long lines of thoughts/responses-for ease of reading
other people' posting.
-Yegue
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
(Kevin Fjelsted)
2. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
(Jorge Paez)
3. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
(Kirt Manwaring)
4. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
(Kirt Manwaring)
5. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
(Jorge Paez)
6. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
(Kirt Manwaring)
7. Re: Android and Mobile Accessibility (Kirt Manwaring)
8. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
(Jorge Paez)
9. Re: Android and Mobile Accessibility (Jorge Paez)
10. Re: Android and Mobile Accessibility (Jorge Paez)
11. Re: Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
(Jorge Paez)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 17:27:15 -0500
From: Kevin Fjelsted <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
Bookshare
Message-ID: <A9A1190B-EE1D-4D4C-9F48-5EBC6D8F48BD at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I think that defeats the purpose of availability and accessible. Why would I
want to go to a DS organization if I didn't have to?
It is bad enough that I need to go to them if I can't find another way to
get the material but if it is already prepared I shouldn't have to go to
them at all.
SO what ever source catalogs the titles and content should be available to
us.
That is why BookShare which is already setup could do that very quickly.
-Kevin
:)
On May 25, 2011, at 5:07 PM, <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
> No, you have to go through DSS.
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Fjelsted
> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:01 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
>
> Does Access text store the content as well?
> Can we access it as individuals and search and download the content?
>
> -Kevin
> On May 25, 2011, at 4:24 PM, <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Access text.
>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:36:57 -0400
From: Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
Bookshare
Message-ID: <78C8C1FF-3D07-4ADD-B90A-946BFAA943E3 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Kirt:
Amen!
We have to watch out for the phylosofical trap here--at one time we were
second class, now we have to realize that we either join the sighted as
first class citizens, or not, but if we do its equal responsibility.
I like Hard braille stuff myself--I couldn't see myself reading my
Chemistry, or Geometry book on the BN.
However, I do think bookshare will fade simply because it'll be replaced by
mainstream sources.
Its the rule of supply and demand--when there is more supply, there is less
demand.
In this case, now that more mainstream channels are opening up to us,
Bookshare and digital services like it will become irrelevant.
On May 24, 2011, at 11:39 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
> To all,
> First off, before I get roasted for disagreeing with you guys, I
> want to say that braille is absolutely critical. My biggest regret
> about my education so far (aside from my terrible habbit to
> procrastinate stuff), is that I've started using braille less and less
> and audio more and more. I really think it's damaged my learning and
> put me at a disadvantage and, while I'm still a great braille reader,
> I don't use it much as I ought to. That said, braille has helped me
> with spelling, grammar, imagination, and learning through reading
> rather than listening. I'm going to start relying on it more again
> and I guarantee my writing and reading comprehention will go from good
> to amazing-it's happened before and, so help me, I'm going to get back
> what I've lost by relegating braille to a back seat behind my
> computer.
> That being said, braille access to books from mainstream sources is
> increasing at a tremendous rate. I can use my apex as a braille
> display on my ITouch to read books I purchase via Ibooks. I'm going
> to make the prediction that, at some point within the next several
> years, using a notetaker or a braille display to read Kindel books
> will be practical-it's just a guess, but I'd be surprised if five
> years go by and I'm wrong. With KNFB developing the BLIO reader, I
> have no doubt support for braille displays will be integrated before
> too long. Reading books in mainstream formats on a braille display is
> already doable, braille and I think it will only expand. The way I
> see it, the ease of reading ebooks on a braille display, as well as
> the number of formats we'll be able to read on a braille display, will
> only increase.
> Now to address the philosophical point this article brings up. I
> totally agree with the author here. If we want to be treated as
> equals, we have to understand we need to demand equal responsibilities
> along with equal rights. I don't see public libraries going away,
> lots of people like their hardcopy books. Therefore I don't see NLS
> going away as a lender of paper braille books. I still like reading
> paper braille from time to time and there are plenty of blind people
> who aren't very computer literate. People still like buying print
> hardcovers and paperbooks; in that same vain, I don't see the National
> Braille Press going away. But sighted people don't get free ebooks,
> why should we? It used to be that we needed them because they were
> the only ebooks we could read with a braille display, not so anymore.
> If we're going to be true to our philosophy as Federationists, it's
> not fair for us to want preferential treatment here. Do we really
> mean it when we say we want to be equal citizens? If we do, it's high
> time we start paying an equal price, especially since it's not that
> hard to read ebooks on a braille display, if we know what we're doing,
> and it's only going to get easier as programs such as the Blio and
> Kindle improve their access. I say we'll only be treated like
> everyone else when we realize that equality isn't an extra handout, it
> isn't just a change in society's attitudes towards us, but it's mostly
> an acceptence of the responsibilities that come with first-class
> citizenship! And getting ebooks for free or at a very steap discount,
> while everyone else has to pay, is definitely not an equal
> responsibility. Who's with me?
> All the best,
> Kirt
>
> On 5/24/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Hi Kerry,
>> Interesting question. Yes we do have more access to mainstream books
>> through
>> comericial audio like audible.com and Random House has recorded books and
>> Amozon has many recorded books too.
>> That said I do not see NLS going away for a long time. As others said,
>> there is still a place for a hard copy braille book, despite technology.
>> You can only get certain things on braille paper such as paragraphs
>> structure that you cannot get on a linear display. You can take a
>> braille
>> book anywhere and its durable. Besides not everyone is tech savy or has a
>> braille display on their notetaker if they own one.
>>
>> As to bookshare, I'm not so sure of that.
>> Part of me thinks it will go away. If electronic books become accessible
>> from distributors and publishers, then why would anyone need bookshare?
>> That is a source of electronic books after all. If we all can read books
>> via
>> our computers or hook a braille display to the PC to read, then that
>> serves
>> the same purpose of bookkshare.
>>
>> But if bookshare comes to a demise, I do not see that happening for a
>> long
>> time. It will be a slow decline of users.
>>
>> Ashley
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jorge Paez
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 9:17 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
>>
>> I think Bookshare will go away.
>> Yes, you can read books with a braille display, if you have an iPhone 4
>> or
>> above.
>> And also: can't you use your notetaker with the PC as a braille display?
>> I don't see NLS going any time soon just for the braille books.
>> They might move away from audio/online, but the braille books are still
>> valuable.
>> I, like you, want to read the digital stuff on a display too.
>>
>> On May 24, 2011, at 8:42 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>>
>>> Hey Guys:
>>>
>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh
>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted
>>> to get your thoughts.
>>>
>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of
>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should
>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from
>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's
>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and
>>> the NLS library service should go away.
>>>
>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts?
>>>
>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future?
>>>
>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts.
>>>
>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille
>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books.
>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone
>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display
>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in
>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a
>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS.
>>>
>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle
>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for
>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for
>>> reading.
>>>
>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many
>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat
>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for
>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen.
>>>
>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went
>>> away completely.
>>>
>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion
>>> purposes.
>>>
>>> Kerri
>>>
>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion
>>> by Josh de Lioncourt
>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that
>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of
>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the
>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we
>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle,
>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?"
>>>
>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people
>>> with whom I?ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one
>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an
>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually
>>> impaired community.
>>>
>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let?s take a quick look at just
>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this
>>> question.
>>>
>>> ?In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously
>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with
>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the
>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with
>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing
>>> materials in accessible formats.
>>> ?Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are
>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from
>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content
>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these
>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy.
>>> ?Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable
>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast,
>>> commercial solutions like Apple?s iBooks and Amazon?s Kindle provide
>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices,
>>> including mobile phones.
>>> ?Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a
>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large
>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient
>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove
>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer.
>>> ?Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these
>>> bodies.
>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a
>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform,
>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one
>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in
>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated.
>>>
>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however.
>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired
>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential
>>> treatment?"
>>>
>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question.
>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise
>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in
>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries.
>>>
>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability
>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply.
>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of
>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A
>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of
>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of
>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information
>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library.
>>>
>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible
>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few
>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the
>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find
>>> none who would argue that point.
>>>
>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline
>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask
>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or
>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The
>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers
>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment
>>> media such as music or movies.
>>>
>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years
>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of
>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling,
>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those
>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only,
>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a
>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers.
>>>
>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated
>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired
>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially
>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community,
>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD?s like everyone else?
>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at
>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or
>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text
>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn?t worth as much as we pay
>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community
>>> college?
>>>
>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually
>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot
>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions.
>>>
>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar
>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I?m
>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a
>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don?t we open
>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates?
>>>
>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or
>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than
>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available
>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users
>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music.
>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which
>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens
>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at
>>> just $229 USD? This isn?t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch
>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage,
>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from
>>> the BookSense. Wouldn?t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately
>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining
>>> books for their hard work?
>>>
>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community
>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon
>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at
>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our
>>> printed materials handed over for free?
>>>
>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a
>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our
>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal
>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on
>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move
>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement?
>>>
>>> I know which outcome I?m hoping for.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 16:42:47 -0600
From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
Bookshare
Message-ID: <BANLkTinwjWqqrN463Ef7SmM6BeSm4RdCog at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Bryce,
Absolutely-if you buy the book, they rip it up to scan the dang
thing, no problem keeping the technology.
Kevin,
I guess I don't know nemeth as much as I thought I did...but there's
still the question of venn diagrams and the like. Not everyone can
afford a $6000 embosser...careful now-you don't want to sound elitist.
;)
While I agree that lots of blind people get atatched to their
technology, provided by rehab, and while I'm as guilty as anyone there
I suppose, that's not the real issue here. If you're going to read
bookshare books, you need that expensive technology anyhow. At least
you do if you're going to read the books with refreshable braille...so
we're all elitists there I guess. True, not every blind person has
access to this technology-this presents as much of a problem for
accessing bookshare books as it does for accessing blio or Ibooks with
a braille display. Same problem either way-the braille display costs
a crapload of money regardless. If you can't get it (and I have many
blind friends who can't), bookshare probably isn't a viable option for
you unless you're using the synthetic speech of FS Reader built in
with jaws...oh, wait! Jaws costs a crapload of money too! Whatever
happened to good old fashioned paper braille for that kind of
situation? Or, at the very least, volunteer readers? I know they're
terrible sometimes but, when you're in that situation where you don't
have the technology, you can't get the technology, you don't have the
skills to read paper braille and you have no other options...you do
what you can. I have friends who are pretty much out of luck because
they don't know braille, they aren't trying to learn braille, they
can't work through rehab and they have no money for technology. There
are still options without all this fancy technology from rehab-namely
paper braille and volunteer readers. Getting rid of bookshare's free
access would only effect those with the expensive technology to read
books-they (we) would have to pay just like everyone else and we're
the blind people most able to do so because we have all this fancy
technology which cost a fortune. Even if it came through rehab,
there's always SSI for students like me. Those without the means to
afford or get braille displays or expensive daisy players wouldn't be
hurt anyways...bookshare, like Itouches or audible.com, is beyond
their means anyhow. Sorry if I sound calous-like I said, I have lots
of dear friends in that situation and I'm not judging them. But those
are the facts, ladies and gentlemen, take them for what they're worth.
Warmly,
Kirt
On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Kirt,
> Nls does not fine you. But at least what I seen they mail you notices to
> return your overdue braille or talking books til you return them.
> Ashley
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kirt Manwaring
> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:27 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
>
> Ashley,
> You're supposed to return a cd from learning ally-I think I still
> have some old ones from years ago hiding in my room somewhere, and
> noone's so much as sent me a notice so I'm not sure how much that's
> actually enforced. NLS enforces that policy pretty good-except there
> aren't fines or anything for lost books...they just put it in as
> "lost" in their files and that's the end of that. Don't ask me how I
> know...suffice it to say that, were I a user of regular libraries, I'd
> have a lot less money to play with. *grin* So no, the return
> policies aren't exactly the same, at least as they're enforced in real
> life. Oh-and for the record, my days of losing library books ended a
> long time ago. Mostly.
> Best,
> Kirt
>
> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Kevin,
>> There are some textbooks for which bookshare isn't all that
>> practical. For instance, I took a logic class last semester where
>> they used all sorts of symbols that aren't in any braille code...I
>> kind of had to make my own personal logic-braille. (which I mostly
>> used on paper because there just weren't symbols in the braille code
>> for what I needed) Bookshare couldn't handle those kinds of books.
>> From my understanding, Mike was talking about the technical aspect
>> more than the legal aspect. (i.e, rendering books like my logic book
>> accessible in electronic braille). Mike, am I understanding you
>> wrong?
>> Best,
>> Kirt
>>
>> On 5/25/11, Kevin Fjelsted <kfjelsted at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I actually don't think it would take any new laws.
>>> I think the department of education could write the regulations for this
>>> based on existing law.
>>> The federal government is great and producing basketful's of paper
>>> regulations.
>>> The key is that the disability funding has a major share that comes from
>>> the
>>> federal government.
>>> So if the department of education and the other agencies combined there
>>> efforts around funding and states that disability services ors need to
>>> provide to a central location the title and contents of any books that
>>> they
>>> need to convert.
>>> The department of education doesn't need to build another database or
>>> storage structure because they already fund a major part of BookShare.
>>> -Kevin
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 25, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Kevin: How would such a law be implemented in the case of technical
>>>> materials? Seems to me we have a way to go before imposing such
>>>> strictures
>>>> on DSS departments, much as these would be desirable in the abstract.
>>>>
>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>> sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 13:39, Kevin Fjelsted <kfjelsted at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be to
>>>>> work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any
>>>>> University
>>>>> or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability
>>>>> services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS
>>>>> department creates to BookShare.
>>>>> Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books
>>>>> would
>>>>> be scanned and uploaded by volunteers.
>>>>> The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and
>>>>> cataloging of accessible books.
>>>>> Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of
>>>>> funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge
>>>>> funding
>>>>> to disability services this process if mandated by the federal
>>>>> government
>>>>> could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and
>>>>> insure
>>>>> that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted as
>>>>> well as the actual book itself.
>>>>>
>>>>> Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that are
>>>>> available in accessible format or loose there federal disability
>>>>> funding
>>>>> then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on
>>>>> BookShare.
>>>>> I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and provide
>>>>> a
>>>>> common format that we can use across the various devices and
>>>>> accessible
>>>>> software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and pray
>>>>> that I can find an accessible version.
>>>>>
>>>>> We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there
>>>>> is
>>>>> not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum to
>>>>> create accessible material.
>>>>> -Kevin
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of
>>>>>> books
>>>>>> via NLS or bookshare.
>>>>>> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or
>>>>>> cheap
>>>>>> online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes
>>>>>> novels
>>>>>> are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook readers
>>>>>> are accessible.
>>>>>> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they
>>>>>> silenced speech?
>>>>>> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> personal example, my library has ebooks too.
>>>>>> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> only reading the title, not the entire page!
>>>>>> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If
>>>>>> ebook
>>>>>> readers were actually accessible, then we can think about eliminating
>>>>>> what you call preferential treatment.
>>>>>> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the ebooks
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
>>>>>> Bookshare
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve,
>>>>>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to
>>>>>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we
>>>>>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning ally
>>>>>> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of
>>>>>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook
>>>>>> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our
>>>>>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them
>>>>>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare
>>>>>> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to me,
>>>>>> at least with books that aren't textbooks.
>>>>>> Warmly,
>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Steve,
>>>>>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too
>>>>>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math
>>>>>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't
>>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its annoyances,
>>>>>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation
>>>>>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I
>>>>>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even
>>>>>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll
>>>>>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless of
>>>>>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or
>>>>>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with
>>>>>>> literary braille.
>>>>>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands is
>>>>>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about
>>>>>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of
>>>>>>> course
>>>>>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it
>>>>>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and
>>>>>>> braille
>>>>>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't
>>>>>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility
>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark.
>>>>>>> Warmly,
>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some
>>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> novel, for
>>>>>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We
>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>> access
>>>>>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream
>>>>>>>> titles,
>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and
>>>>>>>> math
>>>>>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This
>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> be that
>>>>>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in
>>>>>>>> textbooks.
>>>>>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> concentrate on making
>>>>>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final
>>>>>>>> product
>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text that
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers to
>>>>>>>> create
>>>>>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just
>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> same text
>>>>>>>> and making it available in another format.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> name
>>>>>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> sort
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time. The
>>>>>>>> industry
>>>>>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if
>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is
>>>>>>>> hard
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have
>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>> hope,
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer
>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case
>>>>>>>> eventually.
>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to
>>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor
>>>>>>>> yesterday
>>>>>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible.
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible
>>>>>>>> PDF's
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology
>>>>>>>> goes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Steve and Mike,
>>>>>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too hard.
>>>>>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks premature?
>>>>>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an ebook
>>>>>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not
>>>>>>>>> become
>>>>>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems a
>>>>>>>>> bit
>>>>>>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys know
>>>>>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving
>>>>>>>>> fast
>>>>>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille.
>>>>>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read
>>>>>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to read
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those
>>>>>>>>> expensive
>>>>>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same technology
>>>>>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or
>>>>>>>>> coursesmart
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to pay
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very
>>>>>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI.
>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner <liziswhatis at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with
>>>>>>>>>> BookShare
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that
>>>>>>>>>> quality
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> BKS
>>>>>>>>>> books has improved over the years.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Liz Bottner
>>>>>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council
>>>>>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531
>>>>>>>>>> e-mail:
>>>>>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal:
>>>>>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com
>>>>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter:
>>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM
>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce
>>>>>>>>>> accessible
>>>>>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process need
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and
>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>> books
>>>>>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it
>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility
>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of
>>>>>>>>>> accessible
>>>>>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12
>>>>>>>>>> textbooks
>>>>>>>>>> accessible.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> hands
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a
>>>>>>>>>> dedicated
>>>>>>>>>> process for producing quality braille.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot),
>>>>>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the
>>>>>>>>>> point
>>>>>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or
>>>>>>>>>> RFB&D
>>>>>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be
>>>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your
>>>>>>>>>> notetaker
>>>>>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there,
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too
>>>>>>>>>> long
>>>>>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we
>>>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as
>>>>>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far
>>>>>>>>>> off),
>>>>>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our
>>>>>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last
>>>>>>>>>> few
>>>>>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library
>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every
>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just
>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of
>>>>>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter
>>>>>>>>>> I'm done now,
>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Julie,
>>>>>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read
>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream
>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a
>>>>>>>>>>> tremendous
>>>>>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a
>>>>>>>>>>> library
>>>>>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille
>>>>>>>>>>> book
>>>>>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people
>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a
>>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile
>>>>>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar
>>>>>>>>>>> bookstores
>>>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone
>>>>>>>>>>> else.
>>>>>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple
>>>>>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already
>>>>>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be
>>>>>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have
>>>>>>>>>>> options
>>>>>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone
>>>>>>>>>>> else
>>>>>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy,
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is.
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's
>>>>>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about
>>>>>>>>>>> this-please
>>>>>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack.
>>>>>>>>>>> With respect,
>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted
>>>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or
>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on
>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> order hard copy books.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily.
>>>>>>>>>>>> No,
>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just
>>>>>>>>>>>> embossed
>>>>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can
>>>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download
>>>>>>>>>>>> books
>>>>>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the
>>>>>>>>>>>> same
>>>>>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices.
>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones,
>>>>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away
>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Just
>>>>>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random
>>>>>>>>>>>> things,
>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my
>>>>>>>>>>>> rambles.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith <brice.smith319 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> me,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple
>>>>>>>>>>>>> products,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire
>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal
>>>>>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fundamental
>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem with this article:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ":
>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The
>>>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure
>>>>>>>>>>>>> trove
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NLS
>>>>>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> immediately
>>>>>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved
>>>>>>>>>>>>> towards
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> keeping.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> books
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Josh
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rise
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (someone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voices
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> app
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> went
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> away completely.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purposes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Twitter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couple
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired community.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> students
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> providing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contrast,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> devices,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> charge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> large
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cost-efficient
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prove
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> retailer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bodies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kept
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> however.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> preferential
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treatment?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> availability
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sharply.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wealth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 93%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impact
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regularly,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> readers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Inkling,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> toward
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> integrated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> else?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructional
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> text
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> college?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> similar
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> love a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> music.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tens
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> starting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPod
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> storage,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertaining
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extension
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ourselves
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> move
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma
>>>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith
>>>>>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Relations
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co
>>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Julie McG
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in
>>>>>>>>>>>> Opera
>>>>>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of
>>>>>>>>>>>> Guiding
>>>>>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have
>>>>>>>>>>>> eternal
>>>>>>>>>>>> life."
>>>>>>>>>>>> John 3:16
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma
>>>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>>>>>>>>> l.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 16:44:37 -0600
From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
Bookshare
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=yYsT0qQ3gsa+igGHy7wR=3w=BTw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Bryce,
I meant to say it's not a problem keeping the computer file of the
textbooks you buy. Can you tell I'm wrunning on like no sleep?
On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> Bryce,
> Absolutely-if you buy the book, they rip it up to scan the dang
> thing, no problem keeping the technology.
> Kevin,
> I guess I don't know nemeth as much as I thought I did...but there's
> still the question of venn diagrams and the like. Not everyone can
> afford a $6000 embosser...careful now-you don't want to sound elitist.
> ;)
> While I agree that lots of blind people get atatched to their
> technology, provided by rehab, and while I'm as guilty as anyone there
> I suppose, that's not the real issue here. If you're going to read
> bookshare books, you need that expensive technology anyhow. At least
> you do if you're going to read the books with refreshable braille...so
> we're all elitists there I guess. True, not every blind person has
> access to this technology-this presents as much of a problem for
> accessing bookshare books as it does for accessing blio or Ibooks with
> a braille display. Same problem either way-the braille display costs
> a crapload of money regardless. If you can't get it (and I have many
> blind friends who can't), bookshare probably isn't a viable option for
> you unless you're using the synthetic speech of FS Reader built in
> with jaws...oh, wait! Jaws costs a crapload of money too! Whatever
> happened to good old fashioned paper braille for that kind of
> situation? Or, at the very least, volunteer readers? I know they're
> terrible sometimes but, when you're in that situation where you don't
> have the technology, you can't get the technology, you don't have the
> skills to read paper braille and you have no other options...you do
> what you can. I have friends who are pretty much out of luck because
> they don't know braille, they aren't trying to learn braille, they
> can't work through rehab and they have no money for technology. There
> are still options without all this fancy technology from rehab-namely
> paper braille and volunteer readers. Getting rid of bookshare's free
> access would only effect those with the expensive technology to read
> books-they (we) would have to pay just like everyone else and we're
> the blind people most able to do so because we have all this fancy
> technology which cost a fortune. Even if it came through rehab,
> there's always SSI for students like me. Those without the means to
> afford or get braille displays or expensive daisy players wouldn't be
> hurt anyways...bookshare, like Itouches or audible.com, is beyond
> their means anyhow. Sorry if I sound calous-like I said, I have lots
> of dear friends in that situation and I'm not judging them. But those
> are the facts, ladies and gentlemen, take them for what they're worth.
> Warmly,
> Kirt
>
> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Kirt,
>> Nls does not fine you. But at least what I seen they mail you notices to
>> return your overdue braille or talking books til you return them.
>> Ashley
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Kirt Manwaring
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:27 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
>>
>> Ashley,
>> You're supposed to return a cd from learning ally-I think I still
>> have some old ones from years ago hiding in my room somewhere, and
>> noone's so much as sent me a notice so I'm not sure how much that's
>> actually enforced. NLS enforces that policy pretty good-except there
>> aren't fines or anything for lost books...they just put it in as
>> "lost" in their files and that's the end of that. Don't ask me how I
>> know...suffice it to say that, were I a user of regular libraries, I'd
>> have a lot less money to play with. *grin* So no, the return
>> policies aren't exactly the same, at least as they're enforced in real
>> life. Oh-and for the record, my days of losing library books ended a
>> long time ago. Mostly.
>> Best,
>> Kirt
>>
>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Kevin,
>>> There are some textbooks for which bookshare isn't all that
>>> practical. For instance, I took a logic class last semester where
>>> they used all sorts of symbols that aren't in any braille code...I
>>> kind of had to make my own personal logic-braille. (which I mostly
>>> used on paper because there just weren't symbols in the braille code
>>> for what I needed) Bookshare couldn't handle those kinds of books.
>>> From my understanding, Mike was talking about the technical aspect
>>> more than the legal aspect. (i.e, rendering books like my logic book
>>> accessible in electronic braille). Mike, am I understanding you
>>> wrong?
>>> Best,
>>> Kirt
>>>
>>> On 5/25/11, Kevin Fjelsted <kfjelsted at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I actually don't think it would take any new laws.
>>>> I think the department of education could write the regulations for
>>>> this
>>>> based on existing law.
>>>> The federal government is great and producing basketful's of paper
>>>> regulations.
>>>> The key is that the disability funding has a major share that comes
>>>> from
>>>> the
>>>> federal government.
>>>> So if the department of education and the other agencies combined there
>>>> efforts around funding and states that disability services ors need to
>>>> provide to a central location the title and contents of any books that
>>>> they
>>>> need to convert.
>>>> The department of education doesn't need to build another database or
>>>> storage structure because they already fund a major part of BookShare.
>>>> -Kevin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Kevin: How would such a law be implemented in the case of technical
>>>>> materials? Seems to me we have a way to go before imposing such
>>>>> strictures
>>>>> on DSS departments, much as these would be desirable in the abstract.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>>> sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 13:39, Kevin Fjelsted <kfjelsted at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any
>>>>>> University
>>>>>> or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability
>>>>>> services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS
>>>>>> department creates to BookShare.
>>>>>> Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> be scanned and uploaded by volunteers.
>>>>>> The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and
>>>>>> cataloging of accessible books.
>>>>>> Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of
>>>>>> funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge
>>>>>> funding
>>>>>> to disability services this process if mandated by the federal
>>>>>> government
>>>>>> could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and
>>>>>> insure
>>>>>> that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted as
>>>>>> well as the actual book itself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> available in accessible format or loose there federal disability
>>>>>> funding
>>>>>> then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on
>>>>>> BookShare.
>>>>>> I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and
>>>>>> provide
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> common format that we can use across the various devices and
>>>>>> accessible
>>>>>> software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and pray
>>>>>> that I can find an accessible version.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum to
>>>>>> create accessible material.
>>>>>> -Kevin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>>> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of
>>>>>>> books
>>>>>>> via NLS or bookshare.
>>>>>>> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or
>>>>>>> cheap
>>>>>>> online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes
>>>>>>> novels
>>>>>>> are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook
>>>>>>> readers
>>>>>>> are accessible.
>>>>>>> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they
>>>>>>> silenced speech?
>>>>>>> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> personal example, my library has ebooks too.
>>>>>>> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> only reading the title, not the entire page!
>>>>>>> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If
>>>>>>> ebook
>>>>>>> readers were actually accessible, then we can think about
>>>>>>> eliminating
>>>>>>> what you call preferential treatment.
>>>>>>> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the ebooks
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM
>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
>>>>>>> Bookshare
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve,
>>>>>>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to
>>>>>>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we
>>>>>>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning
>>>>>>> ally
>>>>>>> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of
>>>>>>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook
>>>>>>> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our
>>>>>>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them
>>>>>>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from bookshare
>>>>>>> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to
>>>>>>> me,
>>>>>>> at least with books that aren't textbooks.
>>>>>>> Warmly,
>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Steve,
>>>>>>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too
>>>>>>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math
>>>>>>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't
>>>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its
>>>>>>>> annoyances,
>>>>>>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation
>>>>>>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I
>>>>>>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even
>>>>>>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll
>>>>>>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or
>>>>>>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with
>>>>>>>> literary braille.
>>>>>>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about
>>>>>>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of
>>>>>>>> course
>>>>>>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but it
>>>>>>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and
>>>>>>>> braille
>>>>>>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't
>>>>>>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility
>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark.
>>>>>>>> Warmly,
>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some
>>>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> novel, for
>>>>>>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We
>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>> access
>>>>>>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream
>>>>>>>>> titles,
>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and
>>>>>>>>> math
>>>>>>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed. This
>>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> be that
>>>>>>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in
>>>>>>>>> textbooks.
>>>>>>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally
>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> concentrate on making
>>>>>>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final
>>>>>>>>> product
>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> create
>>>>>>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just
>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> same text
>>>>>>>>> and making it available in another format.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the tools
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> name
>>>>>>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know
>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>> sort
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time.
>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>> industry
>>>>>>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if
>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is
>>>>>>>>> hard
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have
>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>> hope,
>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer
>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case
>>>>>>>>> eventually.
>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to
>>>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor
>>>>>>>>> yesterday
>>>>>>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible.
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible
>>>>>>>>> PDF's
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where technology
>>>>>>>>> goes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Steve and Mike,
>>>>>>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too
>>>>>>>>>> hard.
>>>>>>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks
>>>>>>>>>> premature?
>>>>>>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio reader
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an
>>>>>>>>>> ebook
>>>>>>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not
>>>>>>>>>> become
>>>>>>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> bit
>>>>>>>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys
>>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving
>>>>>>>>>> fast
>>>>>>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille.
>>>>>>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to read
>>>>>>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to
>>>>>>>>>> read
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those
>>>>>>>>>> expensive
>>>>>>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same
>>>>>>>>>> technology
>>>>>>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or
>>>>>>>>>> coursesmart
>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to
>>>>>>>>>> pay
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't have
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the very
>>>>>>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI.
>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner <liziswhatis at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with
>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that
>>>>>>>>>>> quality
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> BKS
>>>>>>>>>>> books has improved over the years.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Liz Bottner
>>>>>>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council
>>>>>>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531
>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail:
>>>>>>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com
>>>>>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce
>>>>>>>>>>> accessible
>>>>>>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process
>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and
>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>> books
>>>>>>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it
>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility
>>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of
>>>>>>>>>>> accessible
>>>>>>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12
>>>>>>>>>>> textbooks
>>>>>>>>>>> accessible.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> hands
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a
>>>>>>>>>>> dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>> process for producing quality braille.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot),
>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the
>>>>>>>>>>> point
>>>>>>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or
>>>>>>>>>>> RFB&D
>>>>>>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll
>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your
>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker
>>>>>>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out
>>>>>>>>>>> there,
>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be
>>>>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>>>>> long
>>>>>>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we
>>>>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical
>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far
>>>>>>>>>>> off),
>>>>>>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our
>>>>>>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last
>>>>>>>>>>> few
>>>>>>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books
>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library
>>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every
>>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just
>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of
>>>>>>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm done now,
>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Julie,
>>>>>>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of
>>>>>>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read
>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream
>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a
>>>>>>>>>>>> tremendous
>>>>>>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a
>>>>>>>>>>>> library
>>>>>>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille
>>>>>>>>>>>> book
>>>>>>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people
>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a
>>>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile
>>>>>>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar
>>>>>>>>>>>> bookstores
>>>>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>> else.
>>>>>>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple
>>>>>>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already
>>>>>>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have
>>>>>>>>>>>> options
>>>>>>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>> else
>>>>>>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's
>>>>>>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about
>>>>>>>>>>>> this-please
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack.
>>>>>>>>>>>> With respect,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted
>>>>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> order hard copy books.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just
>>>>>>>>>>>>> embossed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It
>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download
>>>>>>>>>>>>> books
>>>>>>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> same
>>>>>>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken
>>>>>>>>>>>>> away
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just
>>>>>>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random
>>>>>>>>>>>>> things,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rambles.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith <brice.smith319 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> products,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fundamental
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem with this article:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ":
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trove
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NLS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> immediately
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> towards
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keeping.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Josh
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rise
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (someone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voices
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> app
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> went
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> away completely.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purposes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Twitter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couple
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired community.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> students
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> providing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disability
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contrast,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> devices,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> charge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> large
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cost-efficient
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prove
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> retailer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bodies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kept
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raises,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> however.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> preferential
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treatment?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> availability
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sharply.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wealth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 93%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impact
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regularly,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> read.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> readers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Inkling,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> toward
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> integrated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> else?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructional
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> text
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> college?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> similar
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> love a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> individuals
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> music.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tens
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> starting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPod
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> storage,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertaining
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extension
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ourselves
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> move
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma
>>>>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Relations
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co
>>>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Julie McG
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Opera
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Guiding
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> eternal
>>>>>>>>>>>>> life."
>>>>>>>>>>>>> John 3:16
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma
>>>>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai
>>>>>>>>>>> l.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
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>>
>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:45:02 -0400
From: Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
Bookshare
Message-ID: <CE20311B-1A68-4D7E-B029-A26A250B74A4 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Sally:
I see what you're saying.
Perhaps creating a mandatory system in which all publishers can deliver an
accessible version of the e-books to the hands of the department of
education might be a good idea.
Or, that the department of education have the chance to order accessible
versions if those don't exist in the regular marketplace.
On May 25, 2011, at 7:19 AM, Sally Thomas wrote:
> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce
> accessible textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process
> need to translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more and
> more books are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it
> would be foolish to assume that publishers are going to put accessibility
> first when designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of
> accessible textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12
> textbooks accessible.
>
> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the hands
> of blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a dedicated
> process for producing quality braille.
>
> Sally Thomas
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring"
> <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
>
>
> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot),
> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point
> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D
> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too
> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker
> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it
> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that
> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long
> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to
> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as
> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off),
> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our
> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few
> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get
> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are
> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't
> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I
> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like
> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of
> getting them on a silver platter
> I'm done now,
> Kirt
>
> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Julie,
>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to
>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream
>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and
>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous
>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library
>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book
>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to
>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile
>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so
>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get
>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else.
>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple
>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here
>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be
>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options
>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else
>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I
>> honestly don't know what is.
>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's
>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please
>> don't take my passion as a personal attack.
>> With respect,
>> Kirt
>>
>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Well said. I agree with those statements.
>>>
>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do
>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go
>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and
>>> order hard copy books.
>>>
>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not
>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by
>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to
>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get them.
>>>
>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean
>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books
>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same
>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we
>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be
>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that
>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from
>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to
>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just
>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me.
>>>
>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but I
>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith <brice.smith319 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me, and
>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple products,
>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal
>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental
>>>> problem with this article:
>>>>
>>>> ":
>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually
>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot
>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all of
>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The
>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of those
>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of
>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or NLS
>>>> up to these unfortunates?"
>>>>
>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their
>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately
>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many
>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I would
>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a
>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and keeping.
>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books as
>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for
>>>> sighted individuals.
>>>>
>>>> Brice
>>>>
>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hey Guys:
>>>>>
>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh
>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted
>>>>> to get your thoughts.
>>>>>
>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of
>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should
>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from
>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's
>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and
>>>>> the NLS library service should go away.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future?
>>>>>
>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts.
>>>>>
>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille
>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books.
>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone
>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display
>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in
>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a
>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS.
>>>>>
>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle
>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for
>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for
>>>>> reading.
>>>>>
>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many
>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat
>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for
>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went
>>>>> away completely.
>>>>>
>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion
>>>>> purposes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>
>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion
>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt
>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that
>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of
>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the
>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we
>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle,
>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?"
>>>>>
>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people
>>>>> with whom I?ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one
>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an
>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually
>>>>> impaired community.
>>>>>
>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let?s take a quick look at just
>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this
>>>>> question.
>>>>>
>>>>> ?In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously
>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with
>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the
>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with
>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing
>>>>> materials in accessible formats.
>>>>> ?Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are
>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from
>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content
>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these
>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy.
>>>>> ?Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable
>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast,
>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple?s iBooks and Amazon?s Kindle provide
>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices,
>>>>> including mobile phones.
>>>>> ?Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a
>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large
>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient
>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove
>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer.
>>>>> ?Many books are never made available in accessible formats through
>>>>> these
>>>>> bodies.
>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a
>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform,
>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one
>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in
>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however.
>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired
>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential
>>>>> treatment?"
>>>>>
>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question.
>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise
>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in
>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries.
>>>>>
>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability
>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply.
>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of
>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A
>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of
>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of
>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information
>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library.
>>>>>
>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible
>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few
>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the
>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find
>>>>> none who would argue that point.
>>>>>
>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline
>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask
>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or
>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The
>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers
>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment
>>>>> media such as music or movies.
>>>>>
>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years
>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of
>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling,
>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those
>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only,
>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a
>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers.
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated
>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired
>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially
>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community,
>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD?s like everyone else?
>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at
>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or
>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text
>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn?t worth as much as we pay
>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community
>>>>> college?
>>>>>
>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually
>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot
>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions.
>>>>>
>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar
>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I?m
>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a
>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don?t we open
>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates?
>>>>>
>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or
>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than
>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available
>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users
>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music.
>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which
>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens
>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at
>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn?t even to mention the fact that the iPod touch
>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage,
>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from
>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn?t money saved by integrated solutions ultimately
>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining
>>>>> books for their hard work?
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community
>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon
>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at
>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our
>>>>> printed materials handed over for free?
>>>>>
>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a
>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our
>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal
>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on
>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move
>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement?
>>>>>
>>>>> I know which outcome I?m hoping for.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Brice Smith
>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations
>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Julie McG
>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
>>> Eyes for the Blind
>>>
>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
>>> life."
>>> John 3:16
>>>
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 16:48:42 -0600
From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
Bookshare
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=kr1CEOQbz=ipwkMO3ga_R_zKTLg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Kevin,
I almost agree with you. If you were required to pay a price
comparable to market value for the textbooks you got from bookshare,
I'd be more willing to jump on board. My only reservation would be
that not everyone who reads bookshare books can electronically manage
books like my logic textbook or those pesky math books, and DSS
offices wouldn't want to reproduce something that's already out there
in an alternate format. Even with all your fancy technology for
reading that electronic logic book in nemeth, I'd prefer the braille
logic textbook my DSS office made for me any day.
Respectfully,
Kirt
On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> Bryce,
> I meant to say it's not a problem keeping the computer file of the
> textbooks you buy. Can you tell I'm wrunning on like no sleep?
>
> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Bryce,
>> Absolutely-if you buy the book, they rip it up to scan the dang
>> thing, no problem keeping the technology.
>> Kevin,
>> I guess I don't know nemeth as much as I thought I did...but there's
>> still the question of venn diagrams and the like. Not everyone can
>> afford a $6000 embosser...careful now-you don't want to sound elitist.
>> ;)
>> While I agree that lots of blind people get atatched to their
>> technology, provided by rehab, and while I'm as guilty as anyone there
>> I suppose, that's not the real issue here. If you're going to read
>> bookshare books, you need that expensive technology anyhow. At least
>> you do if you're going to read the books with refreshable braille...so
>> we're all elitists there I guess. True, not every blind person has
>> access to this technology-this presents as much of a problem for
>> accessing bookshare books as it does for accessing blio or Ibooks with
>> a braille display. Same problem either way-the braille display costs
>> a crapload of money regardless. If you can't get it (and I have many
>> blind friends who can't), bookshare probably isn't a viable option for
>> you unless you're using the synthetic speech of FS Reader built in
>> with jaws...oh, wait! Jaws costs a crapload of money too! Whatever
>> happened to good old fashioned paper braille for that kind of
>> situation? Or, at the very least, volunteer readers? I know they're
>> terrible sometimes but, when you're in that situation where you don't
>> have the technology, you can't get the technology, you don't have the
>> skills to read paper braille and you have no other options...you do
>> what you can. I have friends who are pretty much out of luck because
>> they don't know braille, they aren't trying to learn braille, they
>> can't work through rehab and they have no money for technology. There
>> are still options without all this fancy technology from rehab-namely
>> paper braille and volunteer readers. Getting rid of bookshare's free
>> access would only effect those with the expensive technology to read
>> books-they (we) would have to pay just like everyone else and we're
>> the blind people most able to do so because we have all this fancy
>> technology which cost a fortune. Even if it came through rehab,
>> there's always SSI for students like me. Those without the means to
>> afford or get braille displays or expensive daisy players wouldn't be
>> hurt anyways...bookshare, like Itouches or audible.com, is beyond
>> their means anyhow. Sorry if I sound calous-like I said, I have lots
>> of dear friends in that situation and I'm not judging them. But those
>> are the facts, ladies and gentlemen, take them for what they're worth.
>> Warmly,
>> Kirt
>>
>> On 5/25/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> Kirt,
>>> Nls does not fine you. But at least what I seen they mail you notices to
>>> return your overdue braille or talking books til you return them.
>>> Ashley
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Kirt Manwaring
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:27 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
>>> Bookshare
>>>
>>> Ashley,
>>> You're supposed to return a cd from learning ally-I think I still
>>> have some old ones from years ago hiding in my room somewhere, and
>>> noone's so much as sent me a notice so I'm not sure how much that's
>>> actually enforced. NLS enforces that policy pretty good-except there
>>> aren't fines or anything for lost books...they just put it in as
>>> "lost" in their files and that's the end of that. Don't ask me how I
>>> know...suffice it to say that, were I a user of regular libraries, I'd
>>> have a lot less money to play with. *grin* So no, the return
>>> policies aren't exactly the same, at least as they're enforced in real
>>> life. Oh-and for the record, my days of losing library books ended a
>>> long time ago. Mostly.
>>> Best,
>>> Kirt
>>>
>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Kevin,
>>>> There are some textbooks for which bookshare isn't all that
>>>> practical. For instance, I took a logic class last semester where
>>>> they used all sorts of symbols that aren't in any braille code...I
>>>> kind of had to make my own personal logic-braille. (which I mostly
>>>> used on paper because there just weren't symbols in the braille code
>>>> for what I needed) Bookshare couldn't handle those kinds of books.
>>>> From my understanding, Mike was talking about the technical aspect
>>>> more than the legal aspect. (i.e, rendering books like my logic book
>>>> accessible in electronic braille). Mike, am I understanding you
>>>> wrong?
>>>> Best,
>>>> Kirt
>>>>
>>>> On 5/25/11, Kevin Fjelsted <kfjelsted at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I actually don't think it would take any new laws.
>>>>> I think the department of education could write the regulations for
>>>>> this
>>>>> based on existing law.
>>>>> The federal government is great and producing basketful's of paper
>>>>> regulations.
>>>>> The key is that the disability funding has a major share that comes
>>>>> from
>>>>> the
>>>>> federal government.
>>>>> So if the department of education and the other agencies combined
>>>>> there
>>>>> efforts around funding and states that disability services ors need to
>>>>> provide to a central location the title and contents of any books that
>>>>> they
>>>>> need to convert.
>>>>> The department of education doesn't need to build another database or
>>>>> storage structure because they already fund a major part of BookShare.
>>>>> -Kevin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 4:05 PM, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Kevin: How would such a law be implemented in the case of technical
>>>>>> materials? Seems to me we have a way to go before imposing such
>>>>>> strictures
>>>>>> on DSS departments, much as these would be desirable in the abstract.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>>>> sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 13:39, Kevin Fjelsted <kfjelsted at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Where we could exude some real leverage as an organization would be
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> work to have the U.S. department of Education require that any
>>>>>>> University
>>>>>>> or School that receives federal funding for any aspect of disability
>>>>>>> services upload a quality copy of any book that the institution's DS
>>>>>>> department creates to BookShare.
>>>>>>> Remember that initially BookShare was a sharing point where books
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> be scanned and uploaded by volunteers.
>>>>>>> The infrastructure seems be well developed for central storage and
>>>>>>> cataloging of accessible books.
>>>>>>> Since the U.S. Department Of Education is providing quite a bit of
>>>>>>> funding to BookShare and the federal government is providing huge
>>>>>>> funding
>>>>>>> to disability services this process if mandated by the federal
>>>>>>> government
>>>>>>> could take all the individual DS efforts across institutions and
>>>>>>> insure
>>>>>>> that there is a central catalog for books that have been converted
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> well as the actual book itself.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Furthermore if institutions were required to only adopt books that
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> available in accessible format or loose there federal disability
>>>>>>> funding
>>>>>>> then the publishers would be lining up to put there books on
>>>>>>> BookShare.
>>>>>>> I would certainly rather have BookShare manage the content and
>>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> common format that we can use across the various devices and
>>>>>>> accessible
>>>>>>> software apps then have to hunt all over the internet for it and
>>>>>>> pray
>>>>>>> that I can find an accessible version.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We are a long way from accessible book readers chiefly because there
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> not enough teeth in the laws and regulations to force the momentum
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> create accessible material.
>>>>>>> -Kevin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On May 25, 2011, at 3:23 PM, <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>>>> I think you miss the point. We still need an accessible library of
>>>>>>>> books
>>>>>>>> via NLS or bookshare.
>>>>>>>> Sighted people can borrow books at the library or buy them used or
>>>>>>>> cheap
>>>>>>>> online. Anyone else can buy a paperbook that is very cheap. Yes
>>>>>>>> novels
>>>>>>>> are easily rendered accessible. But I don't think many ebook
>>>>>>>> readers
>>>>>>>> are accessible.
>>>>>>>> Have you forgotten the protest against Amozon kindle because they
>>>>>>>> silenced speech?
>>>>>>>> I heard that the Barnes & Nobel ebook reader is not accessible. And
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> personal example, my library has ebooks too.
>>>>>>>> But at Nova, Ashley can't use them because they're pdf files. Jaws
>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>> only reading the title, not the entire page!
>>>>>>>> Now this is unequal access. I say keep NLS and Learning Ally. If
>>>>>>>> ebook
>>>>>>>> readers were actually accessible, then we can think about
>>>>>>>> eliminating
>>>>>>>> what you call preferential treatment.
>>>>>>>> As it stands now, I got to pay, yes pay a reader, to read the
>>>>>>>> ebooks
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> myriad of paper sources because those are not accessible to me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:24 PM
>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
>>>>>>>> Bookshare
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Steve,
>>>>>>>> One other thing I didn't catch from your last email. If access to
>>>>>>>> novels from mainstream sources is pretty straightforward, why do we
>>>>>>>> still insist on getting these novels from bookshare and learning
>>>>>>>> ally
>>>>>>>> for free? I'd personally like it if NLS implimented some sort of
>>>>>>>> delete timer in to their downloads like lots of other digital ebook
>>>>>>>> lending libraries do. (overdrive anyone?) But if we can read our
>>>>>>>> novels in braille through ibooks or blio, where we can buy them
>>>>>>>> honestly, why do we still demand getting these novels from
>>>>>>>> bookshare
>>>>>>>> or learning ally for free? Sounds like preferential treatment to
>>>>>>>> me,
>>>>>>>> at least with books that aren't textbooks.
>>>>>>>> Warmly,
>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Steve,
>>>>>>>>> Fair enough. I was a bit too bold and am probably a bit too
>>>>>>>>> optomistic-I'll defer to you on that front. And scientific/math
>>>>>>>>> notation has always been a problem with electronic braille, hasn't
>>>>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>>>> I think that's one area where paper braille, for all its
>>>>>>>>> annoyances,
>>>>>>>>> will probably always be superior, barring some crazy new inovation
>>>>>>>>> making braille displays bigger and representing tactile graphics
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> the braille pins or something. It'll need to be that drastic, I
>>>>>>>>> think, to make rendering of graphics in refreshable braille even
>>>>>>>>> comparable to paper braille with embossers and so forth...so we'll
>>>>>>>>> probably be grappling with that issue for a long time, regardless
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> what happens to bookshare. I certainly wouldn't trust a math or
>>>>>>>>> science textbook from bookshare-they've had problems enough with
>>>>>>>>> literary braille.
>>>>>>>>> I see your point about brand names. But when one of those brands
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> owned and operated by the NFB, I feel a lot more comfortable about
>>>>>>>>> that brand providing braille support. It's not a guarantee of
>>>>>>>>> course
>>>>>>>>> (I've honestly been a bit disappointed with the blio so far) but
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> makes me feel pretty comfortable that blio will get better and
>>>>>>>>> braille
>>>>>>>>> access will improve. I hope the good people at KNFB don't
>>>>>>>>> disappoint-the NFB's set a pretty good precedent for accessibility
>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>> far and it'd be a shame if Blio doesn't hit the mark.
>>>>>>>>> Warmly,
>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As I see it, we need to get access to e-books, and there are some
>>>>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>>>>> happening that hold great promise. I think that giving us access
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> novel, for
>>>>>>>>>> example, is probably pretty straight-forward in most cases. We
>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>> access
>>>>>>>>>> to E-texts to even have a chance at accessing more mainstream
>>>>>>>>>> titles,
>>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>>>> not suggesting that this isn't important.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There is a lot up in the air yet with respect to scientific and
>>>>>>>>>> math
>>>>>>>>>> notation and how information in drawings should be conveyed.
>>>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>> be that
>>>>>>>>>> important for leisure reading, but it is very important in
>>>>>>>>>> textbooks.
>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps it will evolve that organizations such as Learning Ally
>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>> concentrate on making
>>>>>>>>>> the various drawings accessible. They might then create a final
>>>>>>>>>> product
>>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>> merging their special representation of drawings with the text
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>>>>> available. I think we may have a harder time forcing publishers
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> create
>>>>>>>>>> accessible drawings because that goes a bit further than just
>>>>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> same text
>>>>>>>>>> and making it available in another format.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My second reason for hanging back on this is that all of the
>>>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>> name
>>>>>>>>>> are brand names, products of a specific company. We don't know
>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>> sort
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> availability of accessible texts will be maintained over time.
>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>> industry
>>>>>>>>>> is new, and we don't know a lot yet about consistency. What if
>>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> displaying text catches on in five years and the approach used is
>>>>>>>>>> hard
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> make accessible. My point isn't that there isn't reason to have
>>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>> hope,
>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>> rather that we need to base those services we decide we no longer
>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>> what is there now and not on what we think will be the case
>>>>>>>>>> eventually.
>>>>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>>>>> 1997 or so, Adobe made a committment, due in part to pressure, to
>>>>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> Acrobat Reader accessible. Even with their efforts, our governor
>>>>>>>>>> yesterday
>>>>>>>>>> released statements using PDF documents that were not accessible.
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>> never have thought in 1997 that there would still be inaccessible
>>>>>>>>>> PDF's
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> 2011. We justneed to be cautious when predicting where
>>>>>>>>>> technology
>>>>>>>>>> goes.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:42:15 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Steve and Mike,
>>>>>>>>>>> You're the technology people here, so I won't argue this too
>>>>>>>>>>> hard.
>>>>>>>>>>> But are my statements about braille access to textbooks
>>>>>>>>>>> premature?
>>>>>>>>>>> Isn't that kind of a huge reason why we're making the Blio
>>>>>>>>>>> reader
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> working with Amazon on their Kindel? Are you saying that an
>>>>>>>>>>> ebook
>>>>>>>>>>> reader, produced in part by the NFB, which is free, will not
>>>>>>>>>>> become
>>>>>>>>>>> more accessible and will not support braille access? That seems
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> bit
>>>>>>>>>>> silly to me. What about websites like coursesmart? You guys
>>>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>>>> more about this than I do but it seems to me that we're moving
>>>>>>>>>>> fast
>>>>>>>>>>> towards access to mainstream books in braille.
>>>>>>>>>>> Steve, I'd submit that we'd need the expensive technology to
>>>>>>>>>>> read
>>>>>>>>>>> electronic braille, with or without bookshare. If we want to
>>>>>>>>>>> read
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> bookshare file in electronic braille, we need one of those
>>>>>>>>>>> expensive
>>>>>>>>>>> braille displays or notetakers-we'd need the exact same
>>>>>>>>>>> technology
>>>>>>>>>>> setup to read a mainstream braille book through Blio or
>>>>>>>>>>> coursesmart
>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>> (I still think before too long) the Kindel. We'd just have to
>>>>>>>>>>> pay
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> same price for our books the sighted have to pay-if we don't
>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> money, maybe that's an insentive to start working or, at the
>>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>> least, better manage our precious SSI.
>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/25/11, Liz Bottner <liziswhatis at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> TO my knowledge, book publishers are actually partnering with
>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> make their books available and accessible. I do think that
>>>>>>>>>>>> quality
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> BKS
>>>>>>>>>>>> books has improved over the years.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Liz Bottner
>>>>>>>>>>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council
>>>>>>>>>>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531
>>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail:
>>>>>>>>>>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit my LiveJournal:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> Follow me on Twitter:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>>>>>> Of Sally Thomas
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:20 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to
>>>>>>>>>>>> produce
>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible
>>>>>>>>>>>> textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process
>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>> books
>>>>>>>>>>>> are easily accessible with the new technology available, but it
>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>> foolish to assume that publishers are going to put
>>>>>>>>>>>> accessibility
>>>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>>>>>> designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the repository of
>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible
>>>>>>>>>>>> textbook files. Textbook companies are required to make K-12
>>>>>>>>>>>> textbooks
>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> hands
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a
>>>>>>>>>>>> dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>> process for producing quality braille.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot),
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> point
>>>>>>>>>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or
>>>>>>>>>>>> RFB&D
>>>>>>>>>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll
>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>>>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your
>>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker
>>>>>>>>>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out
>>>>>>>>>>>> there,
>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be
>>>>>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>>>>>> long
>>>>>>>>>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we
>>>>>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical
>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far
>>>>>>>>>>>> off),
>>>>>>>>>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our
>>>>>>>>>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last
>>>>>>>>>>>> few
>>>>>>>>>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally
>>>>>>>>>>>> books
>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's
>>>>>>>>>>>> library
>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every
>>>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just
>>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of
>>>>>>>>>>>> getting them on a silver platter
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm done now,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Julie,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tremendous
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> library
>>>>>>>>>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy
>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille
>>>>>>>>>>>>> book
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people
>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> worthwhile
>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bookstores
>>>>>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we
>>>>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like
>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>> else.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> apple
>>>>>>>>>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already
>>>>>>>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> options
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>> else
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hippocricy,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> honestly don't know what is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this-please
>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> With respect,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> order hard copy books.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embossed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> away
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rambles.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith <brice.smith319 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> products,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fundamental
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem with this article:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ":
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trove
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NLS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> immediately
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> towards
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keeping.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sighted individuals.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Guys:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Josh
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rise
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (someone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> braille
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NLS.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voices
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ibooks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> app
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bookshare
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> went
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> away completely.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purposes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Twitter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couple
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iBooks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired community.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> look
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .In general, books released in printed form are now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> students
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> providing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disability
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> undesirable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contrast,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kindle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> devices,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> including mobile phones.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> charge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> large
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cost-efficient
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prove
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> retailer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bodies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> e-book
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasons.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kept
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raises,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> however.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> preferential
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treatment?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> otherwise
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disabilities
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> availability
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sharply.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wealth
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2001,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 93%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impact
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decline
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ask
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regularly,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> read.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> readers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertainment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Inkling,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> content
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> toward
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> integrated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> else?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructional
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> text
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> college?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> similar
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> love a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> individuals
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> capable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> music.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tens
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> starting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPod
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> storage,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ultimately
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entertaining
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> books for their hard work?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impaired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amazon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> approaching
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extension
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ourselves
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> move
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I'm hoping for.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gma
>>>>>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice Smith
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Relations
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co
>>>>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Julie McG
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Opera
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Guiding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eternal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John 3:16
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma
>>>>>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liziswhatis%40hotmai
>>>>>>>>>>>> l.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
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>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kfjelsted%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 16:54:15 -0600
From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility
Message-ID: <BANLkTinVx+f=OzBut8Gh_nZS2A3onHNS6w at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
But you can't get an iphone from T-Mobile...so I'm stuck.
On 5/25/11, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com> wrote:
> There are many Android phones available both on Verizon and AT&T, and you
> can also get an iPhone from either carrier.
> On May 25, 2011, at 4:23 PM, Chris Nusbaum wrote:
>
>> AT and T? I thought the Android was only for Verizon phones. As far as I
>> know, the Android is semiaccessible, but doesn't read some features. But
>> if you have AT and T already, I would totally suggest getting the iPhone!
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto)
>>
>> --- Sent from my BrailleNote
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Date sent: Tue, 24 May 2011 17:40:45 -0400
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility
>>
>> Hi all:
>> Just wondering,
>> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in
>> the Android platform.
>> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader?
>> Is TalkBack any good?
>>
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Jorge
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nu
>> sbaum%40gmail.com
>>
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------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 19:04:50 -0400
From: Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
Bookshare
Message-ID: <C3FD4DB6-A029-4923-90E1-F6C9BD69F31F at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Marsha:
NLS I can understand.
But bookshare?
Why not bookshare?
On May 25, 2011, at 12:46 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote:
> It is doubtful that NLS or Bookshare will ever go away. There is a huge
> need
> for both. And plus theyu are both not just used for students, or blind
> people, but by the disability community as a whole.
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Kerri Kosten
> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 8:42 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
>
> Hey Guys:
>
> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh
> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I wanted
> to get your thoughts.
>
> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise of
> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we should
> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from
> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and Apple's
> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org and
> the NLS library service should go away.
>
> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts?
>
> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future?
>
> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts.
>
> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille
> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books.
> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know (someone
> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille display
> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books in
> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a
> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS.
>
> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon Kindle
> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices for
> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for
> reading.
>
> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many
> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat
> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app for
> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen.
>
> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare went
> away completely.
>
> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for discussion
> purposes.
>
> Kerri
>
> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion
> by Josh de Lioncourt
> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that
> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of
> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org, the
> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should we
> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks, Kindle,
> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?"
>
> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several people
> with whom I've been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If one
> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an
> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the visually
> impaired community.
>
> Before exploring that aspect, though, let's take a quick look at just
> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this
> question.
>
> .In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously
> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students with
> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the
> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case with
> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at providing
> materials in accessible formats.
> .Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are
> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from
> their users before they are able to gain access to the content
> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through these
> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy.
> .Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise undesirable
> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast,
> commercial solutions like Apple's iBooks and Amazon's Kindle provide
> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices,
> including mobile phones.
> .Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge a
> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large
> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient
> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can prove
> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer.
> .Many books are never made available in accessible formats through these
> bodies.
> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a
> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book platform,
> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one
> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept in
> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated.
>
> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises, however.
> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually impaired
> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential
> treatment?"
>
> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question.
> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were otherwise
> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities in
> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries.
>
> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability
> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply.
> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth of
> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A
> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of
> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of
> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information
> they needed online than by visiting a physical library.
>
> The majority of information online is, of course, far more accessible
> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few
> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on the
> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will find
> none who would argue that point.
>
> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the decline
> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well. Ask
> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly, or
> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The
> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers
> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment
> media such as music or movies.
>
> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years
> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of
> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling,
> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to those
> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only,
> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward a
> future of equal access with our sighted peers.
>
> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated
> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually impaired
> community desire equal access without equal responsibility, especially
> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired community,
> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD's like everyone else?
> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at
> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or
> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional text
> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn't worth as much as we pay
> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local community
> college?
>
> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually
> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot
> afford to purchase books, I have two questions.
>
> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar
> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm
> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a
> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open
> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates?
>
> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or
> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable than
> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is available
> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired users
> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or music.
> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which
> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and tens
> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at
> just $229 USD? This isn't even to mention the fact that the iPod touch
> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more storage,
> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get from
> the BookSense. Wouldn't money saved by integrated solutions ultimately
> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining
> books for their hard work?
>
> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired community
> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like Amazon
> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks at
> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of our
> printed materials handed over for free?
>
> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a
> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our
> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension equal
> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on
> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move
> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement?
>
> I know which outcome I'm hoping for.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 19:08:47 -0400
From: Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility
Message-ID: <18F3D953-DC02-4927-A80F-7FC3B6E0709C at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Liz:
Just a quick note:
the apps are all developed by Mobile Accessibility--but the fact that the
screenreader doesn't work that well outside those apps is rather Google's
fault.
On May 25, 2011, at 1:00 PM, Liz Bottner wrote:
> What are some things related to usability and convenience that you give up
> in using an Android? I am thinking of possibly taking the plunge and
> getting
> an Android, having used an iPhone prior. I have had very little experience
> using Android, and will say that I was frustrated in doing so. If I have
> to
> give up a lot and find that my use of the phone and its features really is
> limited, I may not go for it. I really wish Google would make
> accessibility
> a priority. I would love choice in which mobile platform I can use. I'm
> possibly also spoiled in that I don't think I should have to pay extra for
> accessibility, (following Apple's example), especially if the extra that I
> would pay only allows me access to a specific suite of applications deemed
> accessible by one developer/company and I still cannot have full access to
> the phone. Lastly, I am wondering at this point if Android is not more
> accessible to the low vision user than it is to one who is totally blind?
>
> Just my thoughts...
>
> Liz Bottner
> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council
> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531
> e-mail:
> liziswhatis at hotmail.com
> Visit my LiveJournal:
> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com
> Follow me on Twitter:
> http://twitter.com/lizbot
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Ignasi Cambra
> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 5:17 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility
>
> In my experience, Android is truly interesting for experimenting at this
> point, and with some work and trying and failing many things can be done.
> I
> have tried both Talkback and Mobile Accessibility and, to be honest, none
> of
> the two provide anything close to the experience you will get on an
> iPhone.
> If you need a fully functional phone and you need to accomplish things
> quickly and efficiently, I would say Android is not ready yet. If you want
> to try something new and you are willing to give up on some usability and
> convenience, try getting an Android phone and see how it goes. If you are
> planning on using Mobile Accessibility I would recommend that you get a
> touch screen phone.
>
> IC
> On May 24, 2011, at 5:40 PM, Jorge Paez wrote:
>
>> Hi all:
>> Just wondering,
>> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested in
> the Android platform.
>> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader?
>> Is TalkBack any good?
>>
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Jorge
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail
> .com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>
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------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 19:11:41 -0400
From: Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility
Message-ID: <9F6ACBDE-2CF6-463D-871A-631E9A2BF844 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi Kirt:
What do you mean
by "what I need a phone to do?"
I'm interested because I'm also up for an upgrade in a few days and I'm
looking at Android seriously.
On May 25, 2011, at 1:46 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
> Ignasi,
> I use an old android phone (Google g1 with android 1.6 OS) with
> talkback. It aint pretty, but it does what I need a phone to do.
> Once I upgrade, due to happen in a few months, I'll consider paying
> the steap price for mobile accessibility...maybe ask for it as a good
> Birthday present or something because, dang it, I don't want to pay
> 100 dollars for limited access!
> Warmly,
> Kirt
>
> On 5/25/11, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Use of the phone and its features really is limited in my opinion. Many
>> things look very promising, and there are a few apps that are designed
>> for
>> the blind and work well with Talkback. There are still many things which
>> don't seem to work for me...random buttons which don't get activated when
>> the screen reader is on, things that are not read to you etc. If you are
>> expecting to be able to check your email and browse the internet just
>> like
>> on an iPhone, I think you will be disappointed.
>> I personally use my iPhone all the time, but have the Droid just to do
>> experiments. It's relatively easy to develop applications for Android and
>> I
>> have fun with it. I could use it as my primary phone if I wanted to, but
>> I
>> still find the iPhone a lot better as a blind user.
>> It would be interesting to hear other opinions though. Does anyone on
>> this
>> list use an Android phone??
>> On May 25, 2011, at 1:00 PM, Liz Bottner wrote:
>>
>>> What are some things related to usability and convenience that you give
>>> up
>>> in using an Android? I am thinking of possibly taking the plunge and
>>> getting
>>> an Android, having used an iPhone prior. I have had very little
>>> experience
>>> using Android, and will say that I was frustrated in doing so. If I have
>>> to
>>> give up a lot and find that my use of the phone and its features really
>>> is
>>> limited, I may not go for it. I really wish Google would make
>>> accessibility
>>> a priority. I would love choice in which mobile platform I can use. I'm
>>> possibly also spoiled in that I don't think I should have to pay extra
>>> for
>>> accessibility, (following Apple's example), especially if the extra that
>>> I
>>> would pay only allows me access to a specific suite of applications
>>> deemed
>>> accessible by one developer/company and I still cannot have full access
>>> to
>>> the phone. Lastly, I am wondering at this point if Android is not more
>>> accessible to the low vision user than it is to one who is totally
>>> blind?
>>>
>>> Just my thoughts...
>>>
>>> Liz Bottner
>>> Guiding Eyes Graduate Council
>>> GEB Voicemail: 800-942-0149 Ext. 2531
>>> e-mail:
>>> liziswhatis at hotmail.com
>>> Visit my LiveJournal:
>>> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com
>>> Follow me on Twitter:
>>> http://twitter.com/lizbot
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Ignasi Cambra
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 5:17 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Android and Mobile Accessibility
>>>
>>> In my experience, Android is truly interesting for experimenting at this
>>> point, and with some work and trying and failing many things can be
>>> done.
>>> I
>>> have tried both Talkback and Mobile Accessibility and, to be honest,
>>> none
>>> of
>>> the two provide anything close to the experience you will get on an
>>> iPhone.
>>> If you need a fully functional phone and you need to accomplish things
>>> quickly and efficiently, I would say Android is not ready yet. If you
>>> want
>>> to try something new and you are willing to give up on some usability
>>> and
>>> convenience, try getting an Android phone and see how it goes. If you
>>> are
>>> planning on using Mobile Accessibility I would recommend that you get a
>>> touch screen phone.
>>>
>>> IC
>>> On May 24, 2011, at 5:40 PM, Jorge Paez wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi all:
>>>> Just wondering,
>>>> my time is coming for a chance to upgrade on AT&T and I am interested
>>>> in
>>> the Android platform.
>>>> What experiences have you had with the platform/screenreader?
>>>> Is TalkBack any good?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you.
>>>>
>>>> Jorge
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail
>>> .com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
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>>> l.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 19:15:32 -0400
From: Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
Bookshare
Message-ID: <2BD7DBBC-5C02-400E-B6D2-0C27A4C7B26F at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
No,
My class is using the 2000 version of my history book and I'm using the 2003
version.
Ironically the problem is not the book is too old, its too new and so the
pages are extremely different,
and as I think most of us know, "find" doesn't work that well on the BN for
more then 4 words.
Not that I'm complaining that they have a new version--they should, but they
should also have older ones just in case.
On May 25, 2011, at 2:16 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
> Sally,
>
> This has been my experience with NIMAC-it's probably not
> representative of the blind community, but here goes. Throughout Jr.
> High and High School, bookshare was a great place for me to get books
> for pleasure reading and a terrible place to get textbooks. The ones
> I needed were never there, notwithstanding any laws about NIMAC. When
> I got to college, the situation was just the same-I've so far used
> about 14 textbooks, only 1 was even on bookshare and the only way I
> could read it (because of some corrupted files or something) was to
> extract the HTML version from the Daisy zip folder and it was
> cumbersome as all heck. Thank God for good offices at my school's
> Accessibility center who would hand scan books I bought and send me
> rtf or .doc or kurzweil files-they helped me far more with textbooks
> in one year than bookshare has in my whole life. I'm not trying to
> diss bookshare-I love it, I think it's been a great idea, I think our
> need for it is disappearing fast and it'll soon go down in the annals
> of history as a great system that outlived its usefulness, even as
> print libraries and the NLS flourish.
> On a sidenote, was my experience with NIMAC pretty normal, or was I
> just terribly unlucky?
> All the best,
> Kirt
>
> On 5/25/11, Sally Thomas <seacknit at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I was referring specifically to textbook NIMAC files.
>>
>> Sally Thomas
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 11:33 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And Bookshare
>>
>>
>>> Bookshare is quality Braille?
>>>
>>> Mike Freeman
>>> sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 25, 2011, at 4:19, "Sally Thomas" <seacknit at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> There really needs to be some entity that is REQUIRED to produce
>>>> accessible textbooks. That process is a bit different than the process
>>>> need to translate novels into braille. I think it's great that more
>>>> and
>>>> more books are easily accessible with the new technology available, but
>>>> it would be foolish to assume that publishers are going to put
>>>> accessibility first when designing electronic files. The NIMAC is the
>>>> repository of accessible textbook files. Textbook companies are
>>>> required
>>>>
>>>> to make K-12 textbooks accessible.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps there is a more streamlined way to get good braille in the
>>>> hands
>>>> of blind students than using Bookshare but there needs to be a
>>>> dedicated
>>>> process for producing quality braille.
>>>>
>>>> Sally Thomas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring"
>>>> <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:28 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ebook Accessibility/The Future of NLS And
>>>> Bookshare
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> One more thing (I hate double posting, but I sure do it a lot),
>>>> Maybe I was being just a bit too bold-we're not quite to the point
>>>> where mainstream ebooks are as accessible as bookshare files or RFB&D
>>>> audiobooks...but we're moving there fast. I don't think it'll be too
>>>> long until you can read a Kindle book or a Blio book on your notetaker
>>>> or smart phone with braille display. The technology's out there, it
>>>> just needs to be developed and put to use a little bit more-and that
>>>> trend's already started with Apple and Blio. But it won't be too long
>>>> until reading a mainstream ebook in braille, on any platform we use to
>>>> read electronic braille now, will be as saemless and practical as
>>>> using bookshare. When that happens (and it's certainly not far off),
>>>> I suspect we'll have an interesting philosophical debate on our
>>>> hands...and you all better know where I'll stand after my last few
>>>> posts. *grin* And now, for me, I don't need bookshare anymore to get
>>>> ebooks for free I should buy and I feel like Learning Ally books are
>>>> probably the same because of Audible (although audible's library isn't
>>>> as extensive for textbooks), and I feel a little guilty every time I
>>>> download a learning ally book for free that I should buy, just like
>>>> every sighted person out there has to buy audiobooks instead of
>>>> getting them on a silver platter
>>>> I'm done now,
>>>> Kirt
>>>>
>>>> On 5/24/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Julie,
>>>>> More and more sighted people are reading ebooks instead of going to
>>>>> libraries or buying them hardcopy. The ability to read mainstream
>>>>> ebooks in braille, not just on apple devices but on computers and
>>>>> probably notetakers before too long, is expanding at a tremendous
>>>>> rate! If we want to borrow a hardcopy book, we should use a library
>>>>> like everyone else does. If we want to buy a hard copy braille book
>>>>> we should use a book store (ala NBP), just like sighted people have to
>>>>> buy hardcopy books if they want to keep them. Maybe it's a worthwhile
>>>>> idea to see if government can subsidize NBP and similar bookstores so
>>>>> we have to pay the same price as everyone else. But if we want to get
>>>>> an ebook to keep, we should have to buy it. Just like everyone else.
>>>>> And the technology to read ebooks in braille (not just on apple
>>>>> devices, but with a braille display and a computer) is already here
>>>>> and expanding fast! Can somebody tell me why, if we want to be
>>>>> treated equally, we're clinging to free ebooks when we have options
>>>>> (again, not just apple!), to buy our ebooks just like everyone else
>>>>> and read them with braille displays? If that's not hippocricy, I
>>>>> honestly don't know what is.
>>>>> I don't mean to insult anyone, offend anyone, or hurt anyone's
>>>>> feelings. But I obviously feel pretty strongly about this-please
>>>>> don't take my passion as a personal attack.
>>>>> With respect,
>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/24/11, Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Well said. I agree with those statements.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was thinking about it that way as well. What do sighted people do
>>>>>> when they want a new book? They go to the public library, or they go
>>>>>> to Borders or some other book store. Sometimes they go on Amazon and
>>>>>> order hard copy books.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We, however, do not get hard copy braille books very easily. No, not
>>>>>> many books are "made" (I mean specifically made, not just embossed by
>>>>>> the common people) for distribution. But we need equal access to
>>>>>> books, so we get all these different formats in which we can get
>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think he is confused about the term equal access. It doesn't mean
>>>>>> that *everyone* needs to buy an iPad or whatever and download books
>>>>>> just like the sighted people do. It means that we can have the same
>>>>>> choices as the sighted people. Equal access, equal choices. If we
>>>>>> don't want to read our books on an Apple device, we shouldn't be
>>>>>> forced to, and if we want to read all our books on iPhones, then that
>>>>>> is our choice as well, but we shouldn't have choices taken away from
>>>>>> us in the guise of equal access. Are all sighted people going to
>>>>>> switch over to reading their books on their Apple divices? No. Just
>>>>>> us. That just doesn't seem right to me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm sure I'm completely crazy in saying all these random things, but
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> find this is my opinion. Sorry for subjecting you to my rambles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Brice Smith <brice.smith319 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Besides the undercurrent of Apple snobbery here ("It seems to me,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> many others who have embraced the integrated access of Apple
>>>>>>> products,
>>>>>>> that some quarters of the visually impaired community desire equal
>>>>>>> access without equal responsibility,) I have one MAJOR, fundamental
>>>>>>> problem with this article:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ":
>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually
>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply cannot
>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions. First, what of all
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the sighted individuals who are in similar circumstances? The
>>>>>>> unemployment rate continues at high levels, and I'm sure many of
>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>> who are currently facing hard times would love a treasure trove of
>>>>>>> free books at their fingertips. Why don't we open BookShare.org or
>>>>>>> NLS
>>>>>>> up to these unfortunates?"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sighted individuals do have a treasure trove of free books at their
>>>>>>> disposal. It's called the public library, Josh.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course, I treat BookShare like a library, in that I immediately
>>>>>>> delete what I download when I'm finished reading. I'm sure that many
>>>>>>> users of BookShare and NLS keep everything they download, and I
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> not mind at all if Bookshare or NLS encouraged and moved towards a
>>>>>>> model of renting and borrowing as opposed to downloading and
>>>>>>> keeping.
>>>>>>> Still, BookShare is my treasure trove and rental service for books
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> the public library is the treasure trove and rental service for
>>>>>>> sighted individuals.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brice
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 5/24/11, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hey Guys:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I came across an interesting editorial/article written by Josh
>>>>>>>> DeLioncourt from lioncourt.com/the Maccessibility Network and I
>>>>>>>> wanted
>>>>>>>> to get your thoughts.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The article discusses the future of NLS and Bookshare and the rise
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> ebooks. It suggests that as visually impaired/blind people we
>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>> try to move towards a future of reading/purchasing Ebooks from
>>>>>>>> mainstream sources such as the Amazon Kindle, Audible.com, and
>>>>>>>> Apple's
>>>>>>>> Ibooks and that blindness-specific sources such as Bookshare.org
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> the NLS library service should go away.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just for discussion sake what are your thoughts?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you see NLS and Bookshare completely going away in the future?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just for what it's worth, here are my thoughts.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While mainstream sources are great, what about braille and braille
>>>>>>>> literacy? You can't use a braille display to read Kindle books.
>>>>>>>> Audible books are audio so no braille there. As far as I know
>>>>>>>> (someone
>>>>>>>> correct me if I'm wrong) you can't read Ibooks with a braille
>>>>>>>> display
>>>>>>>> either. I for one love Bookshare because you can download the books
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> BRF files and read them in braille on either a braille display or a
>>>>>>>> notetaker. You can also get hardcopy braille books from NLS.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What about those who do not like the voice used by the Amazon
>>>>>>>> Kindle
>>>>>>>> and the Samantha voice on the Iphone? I for one hate those voices
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> reading book purposes...I've tried and just can't get into them for
>>>>>>>> reading.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What about seniors just losing their vision? Though I hope as many
>>>>>>>> people get into technology as possible you have to be somewhat
>>>>>>>> computer savvy to work the kindle PC software and the Ibooks app
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> the Iphone/Ipod touch/Ipad is all touchscreen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts...I would be very very sad if NLS and Bookshare
>>>>>>>> went
>>>>>>>> away completely.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> hHere is the article...just thought I'd bring this up for
>>>>>>>> discussion
>>>>>>>> purposes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Crossroads: Rekindling the Accessible Ebook Discussion
>>>>>>>> by Josh de Lioncourt
>>>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I read a question posed by someone on Twitter that
>>>>>>>> rekindled a line of thought I have had on and off for a couple of
>>>>>>>> years. In essence, the question was this: "We have BookShare.org,
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> National Library Service, and other similar resources. Why should
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> care about the accessibility of eBook platforms like iBooks,
>>>>>>>> Kindle,
>>>>>>>> Adobe Digital Editions, etc?"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On the surface, this question, which has been posed by several
>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> with whom I?ve been acquainted, appears to be a pragmatic one. If
>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>> digs a little deeper, however, it becomes an illustration of an
>>>>>>>> alarming attitude, often an unconscious one, throughout the
>>>>>>>> visually
>>>>>>>> impaired community.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Before exploring that aspect, though, let?s take a quick look at
>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>> a few of the strictly practical answers that can be given to this
>>>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?In general, books released in printed form are now simultaneously
>>>>>>>> available in digital formats. This provides readers and students
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> access to material, be it for pleasure, education, or work, at the
>>>>>>>> same time as their sighted counterparts. This is rarely the case
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> publications offered through many of the resources aimed at
>>>>>>>> providing
>>>>>>>> materials in accessible formats.
>>>>>>>> ?Many of the resources which provide accessible materials are
>>>>>>>> understandably required to obtain medical proof of disability from
>>>>>>>> their users before they are able to gain access to the content
>>>>>>>> provided. Some users may be unwilling or unable to jump through
>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>> hoops, or find it a violation of privacy.
>>>>>>>> ?Some services require expensive, unwieldy, or otherwise
>>>>>>>> undesirable
>>>>>>>> or inefficient equipment to access their content. By contrast,
>>>>>>>> commercial solutions like Apple?s iBooks and Amazon?s Kindle
>>>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>>> access to their content across a variety of mainstream devices,
>>>>>>>> including mobile phones.
>>>>>>>> ?Some resources of accessible content, (i.e. BookShare.org), charge
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> recurring fee for the service. For avid readers who consume large
>>>>>>>> number of books each year, this is undoubtedly a cost-efficient
>>>>>>>> solution. For those who read only occasionally, however, it can
>>>>>>>> prove
>>>>>>>> far more costly than purchasing books from a digital retailer.
>>>>>>>> ?Many books are never made available in accessible formats through
>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>> bodies.
>>>>>>>> This is by no means an exhaustive list of practical reasons why a
>>>>>>>> visually impaired user may prefer access to a digital e-book
>>>>>>>> platform,
>>>>>>>> but it does provide a sample of the variety of such reasons. No one
>>>>>>>> solution will ever work for all users, and that must be always kept
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> mind when topics such as this are discussed or debated.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is a far more important issue that this subject raises,
>>>>>>>> however.
>>>>>>>> It is best expressed in the form of a question: "As visually
>>>>>>>> impaired
>>>>>>>> people, what is it we desire most: equal access, or preferential
>>>>>>>> treatment?"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Several years ago, this was not nearly as legitimate of a question.
>>>>>>>> Services like NLS and BookShare provided materials that were
>>>>>>>> otherwise
>>>>>>>> inaccessible to those with visual impairments or other disabilities
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> a manner that was equivalent to public libraries.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> With the ever increasing ubiquity of the Internet, the availability
>>>>>>>> and usage of public libraries around the globe has fallen sharply.
>>>>>>>> Research can be done far more efficiently online, where the wealth
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> information is virtually limitless and growing all the time. A
>>>>>>>> WikiPedia article outlines the basic statistics of the decline of
>>>>>>>> library use over the last twenty years. As far back as 2001, 93% of
>>>>>>>> college students felt it made more sense to obtain the information
>>>>>>>> they needed online than by visiting a physical library.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The majority of information online is, of course, far more
>>>>>>>> accessible
>>>>>>>> than the visually impaired have ever had access to in the past. Few
>>>>>>>> technological advances, if any, have had such a profound impact on
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> quality of life for visually impaired individuals, and you will
>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>> none who would argue that point.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> With the decline of libraries as a research tool has come the
>>>>>>>> decline
>>>>>>>> of their usage as a source of books consumed for pleasure as well.
>>>>>>>> Ask
>>>>>>>> yourself this: how many sighted readers do you know who regularly,
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> exclusively, obtain books for a local public library to read. The
>>>>>>>> answer will be very few, if any. These days, most avid readers
>>>>>>>> purchase books to read, just like any other form of entertainment
>>>>>>>> media such as music or movies.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While the usefulness of services like NLS or BookShare.org in years
>>>>>>>> passed is undeniable, their necessity is waning in the wake of
>>>>>>>> accessible mainstream sources of materials such as iBooks, Inkling,
>>>>>>>> and Audible.com. Though services providing accessible content to
>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>> with disabilities may still be the best, or in some cases the only,
>>>>>>>> solution for some users today, we should be actively moving toward
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> future of equal access with our sighted peers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It seems to me, and many others who have embraced the integrated
>>>>>>>> access of Apple products, that some quarters of the visually
>>>>>>>> impaired
>>>>>>>> community desire equal access without equal responsibility,
>>>>>>>> especially
>>>>>>>> when regards written material. Do we, the visually impaired
>>>>>>>> community,
>>>>>>>> purchase music like everyone else? Do we buy DVD?s like everyone
>>>>>>>> else?
>>>>>>>> Do we pay for Coca-Colas at the corner store or our lattes at
>>>>>>>> StarBucks? Why not our books as well? Is the entertainment or
>>>>>>>> educational value of a novel by Stephen King or a instructional
>>>>>>>> text
>>>>>>>> on programming C++so low that we feel it isn?t worth as much as we
>>>>>>>> pay
>>>>>>>> for the latest album by Lady Gaga or a course at the local
>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>> college?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For those who may argue that, given the high percentage of visually
>>>>>>>> impaired individuals with low or limited incomes, they simply
>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>> afford to purchase books, I have two questions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> First, what of all of the sighted individuals who are in similar
>>>>>>>> circumstances? The unemployment rate continues at high levels, and
>>>>>>>> I?m
>>>>>>>> sure many of those who are currently facing hard times would love a
>>>>>>>> treasure trove of free books at their fingertips. Why don?t we open
>>>>>>>> BookShare.org or NLS up to these unfortunates?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Second, what about all the funds wasted, be it by individuals or
>>>>>>>> government agencies, on access technology which is less capable
>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>> mainstream solutions? For example, the GW Micro BookSense is
>>>>>>>> available
>>>>>>>> in $349 USD and $499 USD varieties. It allows visually impaired
>>>>>>>> users
>>>>>>>> to read books in electronic format and listen to audio books or
>>>>>>>> music.
>>>>>>>> How is this a better value than, for example, an iPod touch, which
>>>>>>>> provides the same functionality, plus Internet access, email, and
>>>>>>>> tens
>>>>>>>> of thousands of applications to extend its capabilities starting at
>>>>>>>> just $229 USD? This isn?t even to mention the fact that the iPod
>>>>>>>> touch
>>>>>>>> can be connected to a Braille display, has significantly more
>>>>>>>> storage,
>>>>>>>> and a battery warranty that is twice the length of what users get
>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>> the BookSense. Wouldn?t money saved by integrated solutions
>>>>>>>> ultimately
>>>>>>>> be better spent compensating the authors of useful or entertaining
>>>>>>>> books for their hard work?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is it not the height of hypocrisy that the visually impaired
>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>> wastes not a moment in lambasting, (even suing), companies like
>>>>>>>> Amazon
>>>>>>>> for a lack of accessibility in its Kindle products, and yet balks
>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>> the notion that we begin moving away from having the majority of
>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>> printed materials handed over for free?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We, the visually impaired community, are rapidly approaching a
>>>>>>>> crossroads. It is time to prove that we have the courage of our
>>>>>>>> convictions. Will we be worthy of equal access, and by extension
>>>>>>>> equal
>>>>>>>> opportunities? Or will we squander the chance to put ourselves on
>>>>>>>> equal footing with the sighted world by an unwillingness to move
>>>>>>>> forward with society, and a misplaced sense of entitlement?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know which outcome I?m hoping for.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Brice Smith
>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations
>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Julie McG
>>>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
>>>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
>>>>>> Eyes for the Blind
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
>>>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
>>>>>> life."
>>>>>> John 3:16
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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