[nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others
Darian Smith
dsmithnfb at gmail.com
Sat May 28 18:32:22 UTC 2011
Which is my point- you just did a much better job of making it! *smile*
On 5/28/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> Darian,
> I don't see anything wrong with using the comparison to prove a
> point-I do, however, see a lot wrong when people think our situations
> were exactly the same. To my knowledge, no leader in the blind civil
> rights movement has been assassinated. I'm not afraid I'll get
> linched by an angry mob when I go to Washington Seminar. I'm not
> worried I'll be grabbed in the middle of the night by the KKK and
> beaten to death because I'm a Federationist or, for that matter,
> because I'm blind.
> I'm not saying there aren't similarities; indeed, comparing the two
> situations can give us valuable insights sometimes. But whenever we
> start saying "we're just like these people because they went through
> so much abuse," I'm afraid we're starting to go down the slippery
> slope of entitlement and demanding superior access.
> Just my thoughts,
> Kirt
>
> On 5/28/11, Darian Smith <dsmithnfb at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Firstly,
>> I feel like someone being beatin down because they are a
>> federationest is no different than someone being beatin down because
>> they were a black panther, so to me while valid, it's different in
>> that it's a subsection of blind people, as the panthers were of
>> black people
>> I don't doubt that people are unaware of all of what went down that
>> effected the blind americian expirience, as we are largely unaware of
>> alot of the minority expiriencesinour country. Fact is that for the
>> sake of this comparison, blacks faced constent threats on their
>> lives, and even up until now they still do. I don't know how many
>> blind people have to worry about the police stopping them because
>> they "look like trouble". I don't write this to play "who has the
>> worst life", rather to say that some could find fault in the
>> comparison. For my part, I don't quite know if I agree with it at
>> this time.
>> Respectfully,
>> Darian
>>
>> On 5/28/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Mike,
>>> In the African-american struggle for huma rights, there were/are
>>> lots of different philosophies and approaches taken by a lot of
>>> different people-you probably know more about that than me having
>>> lived through a lot of the craziness. Do you think more could've
>>> happened faster if...say, Martin Luther King and Malcolm X spent less
>>> time bickering and more time cooperating or, at the very least,
>>> ignoring each other? I'm not denying that both of them did a lot to
>>> better the condition of black people...but imagine what could've
>>> happened if the two of them didn't take so long to reconcile-or, if
>>> nothing else, if they didn't spend time attacking each others'
>>> philosophies and devoted that energy to their respective movements?
>>> Could that comparison be aplicable to us? Am I remiss when I say
>>> that we in NFB sometimes spend too much time attacking the
>>> philosophies of other blind people rather than advancing our own
>>> philosophy? Am I remiss in saying that many in the ACB spend more
>>> time trying to tear down the Federation instead of building up the
>>> Council? Why can't we, if nothing else, leave each other alone and
>>> spend all our time working on our own goals?
>>> Maybe we could take that comparison further, to incolude individual
>>> blind people who disagree with us. Ideally we should try to engage in
>>> constructive dialogue and find some sort of common ground with people
>>> who disagree and, for example, have next to no travel or daily living
>>> skills. After all, we hope they'll "see the light", so to speak, and
>>> become empowered with good training. But let's say they don't accept
>>> our philosophy...whether they're compitent blind people or not, let's
>>> say they want nothing to do with the Federation. I say first we try
>>> and learn whatever we can from them, no matter their skills and
>>> atitude (or lack thereof). Once we've learned something from them,
>>> even if it's as simple as "I need to have better cane skills" or "this
>>> guy has terrible hygiene-at least I know now why it's so important to
>>> take showers!", then I think we try and let them learn from us. That
>>> can either be by talking or by them looking at our example...if they
>>> chose to not accept our world view, there's no reason to get angry and
>>> defensive. There is still probably common ground somewhere and, even
>>> in the highly unlikely event you can't find any (which is probably due
>>> to you not looking hard enough), just ignore the person and move on.
>>> If we can't be friends, there's no reason to be enemies...live and let
>>> live, and all that jazz.
>>> Warmly,
>>> Kirt
>>>
>>> On 5/28/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>>> I know of no site that has everything gathered in one place. However,
>>>> you
>>>> could do worse than to read Dr. Floyd Matson's book, "Walking Alone and
>>>> marching together" (available on the NFB website and via the NLS
>>>> Web-braille
>>>> site) and, if you'd wish to see the alternative point-of-view, James
>>>> McGivern's "People of Vision: a History of the american Council of the
>>>> Blind", also available from the NLS Web-braille and BARD sites.
>>>>
>>>> It might also behoove us all to reread or re-listen-to the NFB
>>>> convention
>>>> banquet speechdes of Drs. tenBroke, Jernigan and Maurer.
>>>>
>>>> I know that's a lot of reading but no one ever said Federationism was
>>>> easy!
>>>> (huge grin)
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Josh Gregory
>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 10:07 AM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others
>>>>
>>>> Is there a site with... the history of blind people and what
>>>> they went through? I'm curious now, this is a good thread.
>>>> Josh
>>>>
>>>> sent from my Apex
>>>> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com
>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> Date sent: Sat, 28 May 2011 09:52:47 -0700
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others
>>>>
>>>> Although I was never subject to one, I can still remember when,
>>>> at late as
>>>> the 1960's, welfare workers conducted "night raids" with the help
>>>> of the
>>>> police wherein said workers would visit blind clients and go
>>>> through their
>>>> homes to make sure that nothing had been bought that would
>>>> indicate that the
>>>> clients had unreported income. This extended even to such items
>>>> as a new
>>>> dress.
>>>>
>>>> I echo Briley's sentiments that many today have no concept of
>>>> what went down
>>>> in the past.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>>> Of Briley Pollard
>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:28 AM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others
>>>>
>>>> I think it is not always an appropriate comparison to say our
>>>> struggle for
>>>> civil rights isn't completely parallel with the black American
>>>> experience,
>>>> but we have struggled for civil rights. Go read some history on
>>>> how blind
>>>> people have been treated by families and institutions over the
>>>> years. Blind
>>>> children were targets for sexual assault in extremely high
>>>> numbers because
>>>> they were considered to be vulnerable. They were placed in
>>>> horrific living
>>>> conditions throughout history in institutions because families
>>>> believed that
>>>> blindness was equal to ineffectiveness, and that they'd never be
>>>> able to
>>>> succeed or help out their relatives. As a people group, we have
>>>> suffered
>>>> many indignities that I don't think the current generation of
>>>> blind people
>>>> even come close to realizing.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Briley
>>>> On May 28, 2011, at 1:23 AM, Darian Smith wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Mike:
>>>> African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term
>>>> themselves)would not have been too keen on the idea based upon
>>>> how
>>>> they were treated by whites up to that time.
>>>> It is curious that how african-americans were treated is
>>>> always
>>>> one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our
>>>> comparisons in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I
>>>> wonder,
>>>> were blind people beatin and hosed down when they peacefully
>>>> protest
>>>> the unjust ways they were treated? Were they lybnched? Can we
>>>> safely
>>>> make those comparisons? unless I am missing something (I
>>>> could be,
>>>> and it wouldn't be the first or last time I have), we have some
>>>> similarities with regards to civil rights, but largely our
>>>> histories
>>>> were quite different and the scars, deaths,risks were felt on
>>>> largely
>>>> different levels.
>>>> Just some thoughts on the matter,and I very much appreciate
>>>> the
>>>> question.
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Darian
>>>>
>>>> On 5/26/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>>> Darian:
>>>>
>>>> What do you think African-americans would have said during the
>>>> 1950's and 1960's had one of their number said he/she would
>>>> rather
>>>> date a Caucasian person because of the concern for two black
>>>> persons
>>>> dating?
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Darian Smith
>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:49 PM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in
>>>> others
>>>>
>>>> Jedi,
>>>> Sure-let me see...
>>>> We as federationests have certain ways that we like to deal with
>>>> situations, ways that we see life or phrase things in life. For
>>>> example We like to use the term "blind" as opposed to
>>>> "visually
>>>> impaired" or any variant there of. We also like if a person
>>>> uses
>>>> products with Braille on them (braille watches, braille
>>>> compass,
>>>> braille books and the like, but somehow we tend to make people
>>>> who
>>>> don't utilize these things seem lesser for not.
>>>> I have a friend who would much rather date a sighted gentleman
>>>> than
>>>> a blind gentleman because she is concerned about the idea of two
>>>> blind people dating.
>>>> Personally I may feel a certain way about these things, but I
>>>> would
>>>> like to think that it's huge to consider where each person is
>>>> in
>>>> their life and accept them into the fold as they are. I am
>>>> fine
>>>> with educatinn, so long as we arn't critical and that we are
>>>> accepting, because seems to me that weas people hate to be told
>>>> that we
>>>> are "wrong"
>>>> for thinking like we do.
>>>> Does that make sense?
>>>> Respecgfully,
>>>> Darian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 5/26/11, Darian Smith <dsmithnfb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Very good points.
>>>> We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to
>>>> remember that there are other minorities out there. How does
>>>> one
>>>> member of a minority group address another member of that same
>>>> group
>>>> if they don't feel that this person is acting like they should
>>>> in
>>>> public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a positive
>>>> image
>>>> of the rest of that group to society?
>>>> I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with
>>>> it
>>>> varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it
>>>> upon
>>>> ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model
>>>> that
>>>> positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that
>>>> probably is
>>>> the healthiest way to approach this idea of
>>>> perception-changing
>>>> that we think about alot, Does that make sense?
>>>> thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> On 5/26/11, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>>>> Excellent points.
>>>>
>>>> I'm going to add to that some.
>>>>
>>>> I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when
>>>> they attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness
>>>> or
>>>> discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of
>>>> such judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible
>>>> audience for the blind person in question. This audience is
>>>> made of
>>>> both the blind and the sighted community and creates thoughts
>>>> like
>>>> "What will my blind friends and colleagues think of me if I
>>>> react this
>>>> or that way?
>>>> What will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will
>>>> sighted bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose
>>>> situation where the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress
>>>> that
>>>> limits problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also
>>>> creates a greater likelihood of negative response to perceived
>>>> threats to the blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy
>>>> in the
>>>> interaction.
>>>> So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind
>>>> person
>>>> to feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience
>>>> concept
>>>> boosts that feeling considerably because of the stress involved
>>>> with feeling like they have to show themselves as both effective
>>>> and graceful in handling both the offers of help and the person
>>>> who's offering it. Is any of this making sense? So the bottom
>>>> line
>>>> is that by trying to be the perfect ambassador for the blind, we
>>>> may be shooting ourselves in the foot by creating such a high
>>>> stakes situation in our mind that the stress lowers our ability
>>>> to
>>>> present the cool, calm, and effective image we want to offer to
>>>> the
>>>> public.
>>>>
>>>> On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it
>>>> in
>>>> our heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about
>>>> us.
>>>> The truth is that there are limits to that responsibility.
>>>> Sure, we
>>>> want to set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone
>>>> else. The sad truth is that we are judged based on the actions
>>>> of one
>>>> person.
>>>> But the thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about
>>>> that
>>>> except to expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our
>>>> population. Even if we set the perfect impression, it's likely
>>>> that
>>>> the sighted person will still stereotype by saying that we're
>>>> all
>>>> amazing or that the one individual in question is the exception
>>>> to
>>>> a rule. It seems to me that the only people who really get that
>>>> we're as diverse as they are are those who know how to
>>>> deconstruct
>>>> society's grand narrative or are those who have seen enough
>>>> diversity in our population to realize that they can't judge all
>>>> of
>>>> us based on one
>>>> person.
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>>>>
>>>> Original message:
>>>> That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap
>>>> of
>>>> taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we
>>>> lose sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless
>>>> you're a
>>>> therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it
>>>> is
>>>> not your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your
>>>> place is to be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously
>>>> said,
>>>> if that person, after being shown compassion and alternative
>>>> ways
>>>> of thinking, doing and living chooses to fall back into old
>>>> patterns as soon as the instructor's back is turned, that shows
>>>> a
>>>> lack of respect for everyone around them, including themselves.
>>>> So
>>>> if a person wants to wallow in misery and self-pity, let them!
>>>> That person will either fall hard when they find out their
>>>> parents/family members/significant other or what have you can't
>>>> take care of them forever, and then they'll realize what needs
>>>> to
>>>> happen in due time, or they will get sick of the status quo and
>>>> want to change it. And if people hold it against a decent blind
>>>> person because they've met a person like that in the past, it's
>>>> not worth it to try and make them feel any differently. They
>>>> will
>>>> either come around in time or they
>>>> won't. Choice is the key word here.
>>>> Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not
>>>> hurting anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to
>>>> lose
>>>> out on a potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as
>>>> soon
>>>> as you meet someone who's worth your time, you forget about that
>>>> other person real quick
>>>>
>>>> On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero <djdan567 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view
>>>> that we get from the public in general. Most people who are
>>>> sighted are not used to a blind person. You have to understand
>>>> that one blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now
>>>> reliable for what a person thinks about blind people. They are
>>>> the ones setting an example. So if you have a blind person who
>>>> smells bad, rocks, pokes their eyes or just do not have the
>>>> proper skills, the outside person will make an assumtion and say
>>>> that all blind people are like that. i'm not saying it's right
>>>> for blind people to call out other blind people with a skills
>>>> set
>>>> that is lower then theirs, they're just calling them out because
>>>> they are representing blind people. It puts a bad label on us
>>>> blind people who do take care of ourselves, have the skills to
>>>> be
>>>> independent and succeed. like i said, i'm not saying it's right
>>>> but I don't think us who do have the skills want to have a
>>>> negative conotation. Not all blind people poke their eyes,
>>>> rock,
>>>> hop, twitch,bump into everything, smell bad, do not clean their
>>>> own clothes, or anything like that. So to be part of a group
>>>> that's going to display such a view that is negative to the
>>>> public,
>>>> we fall right behind that. Am I making sense?
>>>>
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>>>> --
>>>> Darian Smith
>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth
>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter:
>>>> http://twitter.com/goldengateace
>>>>
>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose.
>>>>
>>>> - Robert Byrne
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Darian Smith
>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth
>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter:
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>>>>
>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose.
>>>>
>>>> - Robert Byrne
>>>>
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>>>> Darian Smith
>>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth
>>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter:
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>>>>
>>>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose.
>>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Darian Smith
>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth
>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace
>>
>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose.
>>
>> — Robert Byrne
>>
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Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace
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