[nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others
Mike Freeman
k7uij at panix.com
Sat May 28 18:35:49 UTC 2011
Kirt:
I doubt there's a person in or out of the Federation that would say "the
blind are just like African-americans". Methinks we're making a mountain out
of a molehill here. What we've actually said was and is that we, the blind,
are a minority in a social context as are also racial minorities, women,
gays and lesbians and so on. We suffer many types of discrimination similar
in many respects to the forms of discrimination these other mainorities
suffer. That's quite different than saying we're just like other minorities.
To some, this is splitting hairs but remember that our founding president
was a lawyer! (grin)
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Kirt Manwaring
Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 11:25 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others
Darian,
I don't see anything wrong with using the comparison to prove a point-I
do, however, see a lot wrong when people think our situations were exactly
the same. To my knowledge, no leader in the blind civil rights movement has
been assassinated. I'm not afraid I'll get linched by an angry mob when I
go to Washington Seminar. I'm not worried I'll be grabbed in the middle of
the night by the KKK and beaten to death because I'm a Federationist or, for
that matter, because I'm blind.
I'm not saying there aren't similarities; indeed, comparing the two
situations can give us valuable insights sometimes. But whenever we start
saying "we're just like these people because they went through so much
abuse," I'm afraid we're starting to go down the slippery slope of
entitlement and demanding superior access.
Just my thoughts,
Kirt
On 5/28/11, Darian Smith <dsmithnfb at gmail.com> wrote:
> Firstly,
> I feel like someone being beatin down because they are a
> federationest is no different than someone being beatin down because
> they were a black panther, so to me while valid, it's different in
> that it's a subsection of blind people, as the panthers were of
> black people I don't doubt that people are unaware of all of what
> went down that effected the blind americian expirience, as we are
> largely unaware of alot of the minority expiriencesinour country.
> Fact is that for the
> sake of this comparison, blacks faced constent threats on their
> lives, and even up until now they still do. I don't know how many
> blind people have to worry about the police stopping them because
> they "look like trouble". I don't write this to play "who has the
> worst life", rather to say that some could find fault in the
> comparison. For my part, I don't quite know if I agree with it at
> this time.
> Respectfully,
> Darian
>
> On 5/28/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Mike,
>> In the African-american struggle for huma rights, there were/are
>> lots of different philosophies and approaches taken by a lot of
>> different people-you probably know more about that than me having
>> lived through a lot of the craziness. Do you think more could've
>> happened faster if...say, Martin Luther King and Malcolm X spent less
>> time bickering and more time cooperating or, at the very least,
>> ignoring each other? I'm not denying that both of them did a lot to
>> better the condition of black people...but imagine what could've
>> happened if the two of them didn't take so long to reconcile-or, if
>> nothing else, if they didn't spend time attacking each others'
>> philosophies and devoted that energy to their respective movements?
>> Could that comparison be aplicable to us? Am I remiss when I say
>> that we in NFB sometimes spend too much time attacking the
>> philosophies of other blind people rather than advancing our own
>> philosophy? Am I remiss in saying that many in the ACB spend more
>> time trying to tear down the Federation instead of building up the
>> Council? Why can't we, if nothing else, leave each other alone and
>> spend all our time working on our own goals?
>> Maybe we could take that comparison further, to incolude individual
>> blind people who disagree with us. Ideally we should try to engage
>> in constructive dialogue and find some sort of common ground with
>> people who disagree and, for example, have next to no travel or daily
>> living skills. After all, we hope they'll "see the light", so to
>> speak, and become empowered with good training. But let's say they
>> don't accept our philosophy...whether they're compitent blind people
>> or not, let's say they want nothing to do with the Federation. I say
>> first we try and learn whatever we can from them, no matter their
>> skills and atitude (or lack thereof). Once we've learned something
>> from them, even if it's as simple as "I need to have better cane
>> skills" or "this guy has terrible hygiene-at least I know now why
>> it's so important to take showers!", then I think we try and let them
>> learn from us. That can either be by talking or by them looking at
>> our example...if they chose to not accept our world view, there's no
>> reason to get angry and defensive. There is still probably common
>> ground somewhere and, even in the highly unlikely event you can't
>> find any (which is probably due to you not looking hard enough), just
ignore the person and move on.
>> If we can't be friends, there's no reason to be enemies...live and
>> let live, and all that jazz.
>> Warmly,
>> Kirt
>>
>> On 5/28/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>> I know of no site that has everything gathered in one place.
>>> However, you could do worse than to read Dr. Floyd Matson's book,
>>> "Walking Alone and marching together" (available on the NFB website
>>> and via the NLS Web-braille
>>> site) and, if you'd wish to see the alternative point-of-view, James
>>> McGivern's "People of Vision: a History of the american Council of
>>> the Blind", also available from the NLS Web-braille and BARD sites.
>>>
>>> It might also behoove us all to reread or re-listen-to the NFB
>>> convention banquet speechdes of Drs. tenBroke, Jernigan and Maurer.
>>>
>>> I know that's a lot of reading but no one ever said Federationism
>>> was easy!
>>> (huge grin)
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On Behalf Of Josh Gregory
>>> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 10:07 AM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others
>>>
>>> Is there a site with... the history of blind people and what they
>>> went through? I'm curious now, this is a good thread.
>>> Josh
>>>
>>> sent from my Apex
>>> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Mike Freeman" <k7uij at panix.com
>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Date sent: Sat, 28 May 2011 09:52:47 -0700
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others
>>>
>>> Although I was never subject to one, I can still remember when, at
>>> late as the 1960's, welfare workers conducted "night raids" with the
>>> help of the police wherein said workers would visit blind clients
>>> and go through their homes to make sure that nothing had been bought
>>> that would indicate that the clients had unreported income. This
>>> extended even to such items as a new dress.
>>>
>>> I echo Briley's sentiments that many today have no concept of what
>>> went down in the past.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Briley Pollard
>>> Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:28 AM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others
>>>
>>> I think it is not always an appropriate comparison to say our
>>> struggle for civil rights isn't completely parallel with the black
>>> American experience, but we have struggled for civil rights. Go
>>> read some history on how blind people have been treated by families
>>> and institutions over the years. Blind children were targets for
>>> sexual assault in extremely high numbers because they were
>>> considered to be vulnerable. They were placed in horrific living
>>> conditions throughout history in institutions because families
>>> believed that blindness was equal to ineffectiveness, and that
>>> they'd never be able to succeed or help out their relatives. As a
>>> people group, we have suffered many indignities that I don't think
>>> the current generation of blind people even come close to realizing.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Briley
>>> On May 28, 2011, at 1:23 AM, Darian Smith wrote:
>>>
>>> Mike:
>>> African-Americans/blacks (however one choosses to term
>>> themselves)would not have been too keen on the idea based upon how
>>> they were treated by whites up to that time.
>>> It is curious that how african-americans were treated is
>>> always
>>> one of the first ways we as blind people choose to make our
>>> comparisons in our struggle for first-class citizanship. I wonder,
>>> were blind people beatin and hosed down when they peacefully
>>> protest the unjust ways they were treated? Were they lybnched?
>>> Can we safely make those comparisons? unless I am missing
>>> something (I could be, and it wouldn't be the first or last time I
>>> have), we have some similarities with regards to civil rights, but
>>> largely our histories were quite different and the scars,
>>> deaths,risks were felt on largely different levels.
>>> Just some thoughts on the matter,and I very much appreciate the
>>> question.
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Darian
>>>
>>> On 5/26/11, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>> Darian:
>>>
>>> What do you think African-americans would have said during the
>>> 1950's and 1960's had one of their number said he/she would rather
>>> date a Caucasian person because of the concern for two black persons
>>> dating?
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:49 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others
>>>
>>> Jedi,
>>> Sure-let me see...
>>> We as federationests have certain ways that we like to deal with
>>> situations, ways that we see life or phrase things in life. For
>>> example We like to use the term "blind" as opposed to "visually
>>> impaired" or any variant there of. We also like if a person uses
>>> products with Braille on them (braille watches, braille compass,
>>> braille books and the like, but somehow we tend to make people who
>>> don't utilize these things seem lesser for not.
>>> I have a friend who would much rather date a sighted gentleman
>>> than a blind gentleman because she is concerned about the idea of
>>> two blind people dating.
>>> Personally I may feel a certain way about these things, but I
>>> would like to think that it's huge to consider where each person
>>> is in
>>> their life and accept them into the fold as they are. I am
>>> fine
>>> with educatinn, so long as we arn't critical and that we are
>>> accepting, because seems to me that weas people hate to be told
>>> that we are "wrong"
>>> for thinking like we do.
>>> Does that make sense?
>>> Respecgfully,
>>> Darian
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/26/11, Darian Smith <dsmithnfb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Very good points.
>>> We as blind people are a minority, and I think it's good to
>>> remember that there are other minorities out there. How does one
>>> member of a minority group address another member of that same group
>>> if they don't feel that this person is acting like they should in
>>> public? Don't feel like this person is projecting a positive image
>>> of the rest of that group to society?
>>> I believe that we all face that problem and how we deal with it
>>> varies, but I would hope that we know enough to not take it upon
>>> ourselves to change the worlds opinions. I think we can model that
>>> positive image that is with in our grasp to become, that probably is
>>> the healthiest way to approach this idea of perception-changing
>>> that we think about alot, Does that make sense?
>>> thoughts?
>>>
>>> On 5/26/11, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>>> Excellent points.
>>>
>>> I'm going to add to that some.
>>>
>>> I've noticed that we also tend to judge a person's actions when
>>> they attempt to handle a vexing situation like overhelpfulness or
>>> discrimination. I've been doing some research on the effects of
>>> such judgment and have concluded that it creates an invisible
>>> audience for the blind person in question. This audience is made of
>>> both the blind and the sighted community and creates thoughts like
>>> "What will my blind friends and colleagues think of me if I react
>>> this or that way?
>>> What will the sighted person I'm talking to think? What will
>>> sighted bystanders think?" What this does is create a win/lose
>>> situation where the stakes are high. Aside from causing stress that
>>> limits problem-solving ability, this high stakes situation also
>>> creates a greater likelihood of negative response to perceived
>>> threats to the blind person's self-concept and sense of efficacy in
>>> the interaction.
>>> So for example, an overly helpful person might cause a blind person
>>> to feel ineffective as it is. But the invisible audience concept
>>> boosts that feeling considerably because of the stress involved
>>> with feeling like they have to show themselves as both effective
>>> and graceful in handling both the offers of help and the person
>>> who's offering it. Is any of this making sense? So the bottom line
>>> is that by trying to be the perfect ambassador for the blind, we
>>> may be shooting ourselves in the foot by creating such a high
>>> stakes situation in our mind that the stress lowers our ability to
>>> present the cool, calm, and effective image we want to offer to the
>>> public.
>>>
>>> On that note, I've noticed that our community seems to have it in
>>> our heads that we're responsible for how the sighted feel about us.
>>> The truth is that there are limits to that responsibility.
>>> Sure, we
>>> want to set a good impression in all areas, but so does everyone
>>> else. The sad truth is that we are judged based on the actions of
>>> one person.
>>> But the thing is, there's nothing that we can really do about that
>>> except to expose a given sighted person to the diversity of our
>>> population. Even if we set the perfect impression, it's likely that
>>> the sighted person will still stereotype by saying that we're all
>>> amazing or that the one individual in question is the exception to
>>> a rule. It seems to me that the only people who really get that
>>> we're as diverse as they are are those who know how to deconstruct
>>> society's grand narrative or are those who have seen enough
>>> diversity in our population to realize that they can't judge all of
>>> us based on one person.
>>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>>
>>> Original message:
>>> That makes perfect sense, but we should not fall into the trap of
>>> taking responsibility for others' actions. When we do that, we
>>> lose sight of our own goals and direction in life. Unless you're a
>>> therapist, or a rehab teacher working with people like that, it is
>>> not your job to fix them. Even as a therapist or teacher, your
>>> place is to be a mentor and an instructor. As I previously said,
>>> if that person, after being shown compassion and alternative ways
>>> of thinking, doing and living chooses to fall back into old
>>> patterns as soon as the instructor's back is turned, that shows a
>>> lack of respect for everyone around them, including themselves.
>>> So
>>> if a person wants to wallow in misery and self-pity, let them!
>>> That person will either fall hard when they find out their
>>> parents/family members/significant other or what have you can't
>>> take care of them forever, and then they'll realize what needs to
>>> happen in due time, or they will get sick of the status quo and
>>> want to change it. And if people hold it against a decent blind
>>> person because they've met a person like that in the past, it's not
>>> worth it to try and make them feel any differently. They will
>>> either come around in time or they won't. Choice is the key word
>>> here.
>>> Everyone is free to think as they choose so long as it's not
>>> hurting anyone. So, while it might temporarily sting a bit to lose
>>> out on a potential friendship due to someone's ignorance, as soon
>>> as you meet someone who's worth your time, you forget about that
>>> other person real quick
>>>
>>> On 5/26/11, Daniel Romero <djdan567 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I think the reason why this might go down is because of the view
>>> that we get from the public in general. Most people who are
>>> sighted are not used to a blind person. You have to understand
>>> that one blind person being seen is a huge thing. They're now
>>> reliable for what a person thinks about blind people. They are the
>>> ones setting an example. So if you have a blind person who smells
>>> bad, rocks, pokes their eyes or just do not have the proper skills,
>>> the outside person will make an assumtion and say that all blind
>>> people are like that. i'm not saying it's right for blind people
>>> to call out other blind people with a skills set that is lower then
>>> theirs, they're just calling them out because they are representing
>>> blind people. It puts a bad label on us blind people who do take
>>> care of ourselves, have the skills to be independent and succeed.
>>> like i said, i'm not saying it's right but I don't think us who do
>>> have the skills want to have a negative conotation. Not all blind
>>> people poke their eyes, rock, hop, twitch,bump into everything,
>>> smell bad, do not clean their own clothes, or anything like that.
>>> So to be part of a group that's going to display such a view that
>>> is negative to the public, we fall right behind that. Am I making
>>> sense?
>>>
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>>> Darian Smith
>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth
>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter:
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>>>
>>> - Robert Byrne
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>>>
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>>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth
>>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter:
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>>>
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>>>
>>> - Robert Byrne
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> --
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> Skype: The_Blind_Truth
> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter:
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>
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