[nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help

Thu Nov 10 23:40:36 UTC 2011

Mark,
I agree with you. I go sighted guide a lot when walking and talking
with another person. Its easier to keep in contact with them and faster. 
Also, if I I use my cane, it might trip them. If you follow them, where does 
the person stand so your cane isn't in the way? If they're ahead of you, 
they cannot see your cane arc. Do they walk behind and give directions?

We cannot say we're independent and get a sighted guide everywhere we go. 
Yet, in
some circumstances, I think sighted guide is appropriate. It just depends.
IMO, independence means we're in control of where we go and what we're 
doing. So going out for dinner and grabbing an elbowof a companion seems 
reasonable. You made a decision where to go and how to get there and likely 
you'll use one group member as a reader of your bill and the menu.

I guess we balance when to use a guide. Mark, yes you can hang on to a blind 
person. That is why they call it human guide now, not sighted guide.
O&M instructors changed the term recognizing that blind people can and do 
guide each other.

Ashley
-----Original Message----- 
From: Marc Workman
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 6:26 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help

Jedi wrote,
> we can't claim that we want to be independent travellers and ask for a 
> sighted guide everywhere we go.

I take this to mean that, if you are unable to travel anywhere without 
sighted guide, you cannot call yourself an independent traveller.  This 
seems right and uncontroversial.  But I think others, and I'm not referring 
to the statement above, have made statements, which I'm too lazy right now 
to find and cite directly, that suggest it is better, in general, not to go 
sighted guide even when it is available.  There are times when it's 
appropriate no doubt, but as a rule, independence requires foregoing sighted 
guide even when you are walking with a sighted person.  Perhaps there are 
more nuanced positions, and I'd be interested in hearing those, but this is 
a sentiment I believe I've picked up on.

The thing that puzzles me is that it seems to be acceptable to "depend" on 
the person with whom you are walking in certain ways (for example, it's okay 
to listen to footsteps, or the persons voice, or follow directions like left 
or right), but it's not acceptable to "depend" on the person if it involves 
putting two fingers on the back of someone's elbow.  Why is one form of 
dependence acceptable while the other is not?

Now, this could be a difference in the definition of sighted guide.  When I 
go sighted guide, I continue to rely on my cane to find curbs, stairs, 
poles, etc.  I've always thought it strange to put the cane away during 
sighted guide, not because I care about dependence or independence, but 
because I would feel unsafe.  I suppose if you put away the cane and relied 
exclusively on the sighted person, this would constitute a difference 
between sighted guide and listening to footsteps, but as I said, this isn't 
my version of sighted guide.  For me, a light touch on the elbow is just a 
more convenient way of tracking the person with whom I'm talking than is 
listening to footsteps or voice.  I do the same thing with my girlfriend who 
is also blind.

I go sighted guide nearly all of the time when I'm walking and talking with 
another person even if that person is not sighted.  Obviously, if I'm 
travelling alone, there is no sighted guide, and I'm perfectly comfortable 
with that.  I don't think this is a matter of dependence or independence 
since, whether I depend on footsteps/voice/directions or a light touch on 
the elbow, I'm equally dependent.  To me, this is a matter of convenience. 
I could go from my apartment to my office, which involves a bus ride, an LRT 
ride, and a walk across campus, without my cane.  I've walked it enough 
times that I'm sure I could do it, but it would be far less convenient to do 
it this way.  Yet no one would suggest that I'm dependent on my cane, or at 
least no one would suggest that I ought to try to be less dependent on my 
cane.  Similarly, when I'm having a conversation or receiving assistance 
from another person, I could listen to footsteps/voice/directions, but I 
find this far less convenient than lightly touching an elbow.

I recognize that some people may see this and believe that I could not do it 
on my own, but they would be mistaken.  I also know that those same people 
might assume that all blind people are like me and would not be able to do 
it on their own either and that these beliefs might affect, probably 
negatively, their interactions with other blind people.  Again, however, 
this would be their mistake, their prejudice, and their discrimination.  And 
while I regret that situation, I won't let people's ignorance and stupidity 
dictate my behaviour.

Cheers,

Marc
On 2011-11-10, at 12:44 PM, Jedi wrote:

> Bridgit,
>
> I'm with you entirely on the idea that a person, of any sort, walking 
> alone should indicate that help is not needed. But I think those blindness 
> attitudes tend to erode good sense. And I'm with you that our actions mean 
> a lot; we can't claim that we want to be independent travelers and ask for 
> a sighted guide everywhere we go. I'm sorry to say that this is one of the 
> few situations in which we can't have our cake and eat it, too.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
> Original message:
>> I can kind of understand how those with little to no exposure to
>> blindness may be concerned and curious as to how we do something like
>> cross a street, but, and this may be my naivety talking, when a person
>> sees a grown person walking about on their own, does common sense not
>> dictate that perhaps, while not fully understanding it, that person is
>> probably okay? Maybe they can ask if we need anything, but it's a little
>> difficult for me to understand how we can obviously be doing things with
>> no help, but when a sighted person is around we suddenly need their
>> help? I guess I'm still acclimating to stuff like this.
>
>> In crowded situations, I'll take sighted guide sometimes, more so, so I
>> don't lose whoever I'm with, but I think it helps when we do as much as
>> possible independently. I also suffer episodes of extremely low blood
>> pressure which makes me dizzy, weak and can affect my balance. On days
>> like these, depending on what I need to do, I may take more assistance
>> than on good days, but I try to be as independent as possible even on
>> these days, but this also is just because of my personality as much as
>> it is related to blindness! Smile. While going to school, classmates
>> became accustomed to me doing things and getting around without help,
>> and I led the way when it came to when and if I needed assistance. When
>> classmates would see me around campus, they eventually stopped asking if
>> I needed help and would just approach me like they would anyone else.
>> They let me do the asking, and instead, we were able to cultivate
>> relationships.
>
>> The positive energy and confidence we put off helps as much as our
>> actions. If we present ourselves in as confident of a manner as possible
>> in any given situation, people will pick up on this and respect us as
>> people. The more we work on our confidence, the more people will take
>> note, and more importantly, the better off we feel about our
>> independence and capabilities.
>
>> Sincerely,
>> Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter
>> Read my blog at:
>> http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/
>
>> "History is not what happened; history is what was written down."
>> The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan
>
>> Message: 21
>> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 23:10:14 -0500
>> From: Patrick Molloy <ptrck.molloy at gmail.com>
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>        <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc.
>> Message-ID:
>
>> <CAN+-G_CeC3zdSdX+TEE1od6936YObAZRvSXG9KXQg2eKU2Ba+g at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>> I find it quite ironic that, in trying to help us, sighted people
>> often cause more of a problem with regard to street crossing. Again,
>> they really do mean well, but their method of help still leaves a lot
>> to be desired (if desired at all.)
>> Patrick
>
>
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