[nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help

Sat Nov 12 13:45:29 UTC 2011

Good morning, Ashley,

To me, the term "sighted guide" ought not necessarily be reflective 
of whether a person can ocularly, see, but a description of someone 
fulfilling a role as a guide. For this reason I completely reject 
that term, for my own use.
Things don't need to be defined into oblivion.   At 03:40 PM 
11/10/2011, Ashley Bramlett wrote:
>Mark,
>I agree with you. I go sighted guide a lot when walking and talking
>with another person. Its easier to keep in contact with them and 
>faster. Also, if I I use my cane, it might trip them. If you follow 
>them, where does the person stand so your cane isn't in the way? If 
>they're ahead of you, they cannot see your cane arc. Do they walk 
>behind and give directions?
>
>We cannot say we're independent and get a sighted guide everywhere 
>we go. Yet, in
>some circumstances, I think sighted guide is appropriate. It just depends.
>IMO, independence means we're in control of where we go and what 
>we're doing. So going out for dinner and grabbing an elbowof a 
>companion seems reasonable. You made a decision where to go and how 
>to get there and likely you'll use one group member as a reader of 
>your bill and the menu.
>
>I guess we balance when to use a guide. Mark, yes you can hang on to 
>a blind person. That is why they call it human guide now, not sighted guide.
>O&M instructors changed the term recognizing that blind people can 
>and do guide each other.
>
>Ashley
>-----Original Message----- From: Marc Workman
>Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 6:26 PM
>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help
>
>Jedi wrote,
>>we can't claim that we want to be independent travellers and ask 
>>for a sighted guide everywhere we go.
>
>I take this to mean that, if you are unable to travel anywhere 
>without sighted guide, you cannot call yourself an independent 
>traveller.  This seems right and uncontroversial.  But I think 
>others, and I'm not referring to the statement above, have made 
>statements, which I'm too lazy right now to find and cite directly, 
>that suggest it is better, in general, not to go sighted guide even 
>when it is available.  There are times when it's appropriate no 
>doubt, but as a rule, independence requires foregoing sighted guide 
>even when you are walking with a sighted person.  Perhaps there are 
>more nuanced positions, and I'd be interested in hearing those, but 
>this is a sentiment I believe I've picked up on.
>
>The thing that puzzles me is that it seems to be acceptable to 
>"depend" on the person with whom you are walking in certain ways 
>(for example, it's okay to listen to footsteps, or the persons 
>voice, or follow directions like left or right), but it's not 
>acceptable to "depend" on the person if it involves putting two 
>fingers on the back of someone's elbow.  Why is one form of 
>dependence acceptable while the other is not?
>
>Now, this could be a difference in the definition of sighted 
>guide.  When I go sighted guide, I continue to rely on my cane to 
>find curbs, stairs, poles, etc.  I've always thought it strange to 
>put the cane away during sighted guide, not because I care about 
>dependence or independence, but because I would feel unsafe.  I 
>suppose if you put away the cane and relied exclusively on the 
>sighted person, this would constitute a difference between sighted 
>guide and listening to footsteps, but as I said, this isn't my 
>version of sighted guide.  For me, a light touch on the elbow is 
>just a more convenient way of tracking the person with whom I'm 
>talking than is listening to footsteps or voice.  I do the same 
>thing with my girlfriend who is also blind.
>
>I go sighted guide nearly all of the time when I'm walking and 
>talking with another person even if that person is not 
>sighted.  Obviously, if I'm travelling alone, there is no sighted 
>guide, and I'm perfectly comfortable with that.  I don't think this 
>is a matter of dependence or independence since, whether I depend on 
>footsteps/voice/directions or a light touch on the elbow, I'm 
>equally dependent.  To me, this is a matter of convenience. I could 
>go from my apartment to my office, which involves a bus ride, an LRT 
>ride, and a walk across campus, without my cane.  I've walked it 
>enough times that I'm sure I could do it, but it would be far less 
>convenient to do it this way.  Yet no one would suggest that I'm 
>dependent on my cane, or at least no one would suggest that I ought 
>to try to be less dependent on my cane.  Similarly, when I'm having 
>a conversation or receiving assistance from another person, I could 
>listen to footsteps/voice/directions, but I find this far less 
>convenient than lightly touching an elbow.
>
>I recognize that some people may see this and believe that I could 
>not do it on my own, but they would be mistaken.  I also know that 
>those same people might assume that all blind people are like me and 
>would not be able to do it on their own either and that these 
>beliefs might affect, probably negatively, their interactions with 
>other blind people.  Again, however, this would be their mistake, 
>their prejudice, and their discrimination.  And while I regret that 
>situation, I won't let people's ignorance and stupidity dictate my behaviour.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Marc
>On 2011-11-10, at 12:44 PM, Jedi wrote:
>
>>Bridgit,
>>
>>I'm with you entirely on the idea that a person, of any sort, 
>>walking alone should indicate that help is not needed. But I think 
>>those blindness attitudes tend to erode good sense. And I'm with 
>>you that our actions mean a lot; we can't claim that we want to be 
>>independent travelers and ask for a sighted guide everywhere we go. 
>>I'm sorry to say that this is one of the few situations in which we 
>>can't have our cake and eat it, too.
>>
>>Respectfully,
>>Jedi
>>
>>Original message:
>>>I can kind of understand how those with little to no exposure to
>>>blindness may be concerned and curious as to how we do something like
>>>cross a street, but, and this may be my naivety talking, when a person
>>>sees a grown person walking about on their own, does common sense not
>>>dictate that perhaps, while not fully understanding it, that person is
>>>probably okay? Maybe they can ask if we need anything, but it's a little
>>>difficult for me to understand how we can obviously be doing things with
>>>no help, but when a sighted person is around we suddenly need their
>>>help? I guess I'm still acclimating to stuff like this.
>>
>>>In crowded situations, I'll take sighted guide sometimes, more so, so I
>>>don't lose whoever I'm with, but I think it helps when we do as much as
>>>possible independently. I also suffer episodes of extremely low blood
>>>pressure which makes me dizzy, weak and can affect my balance. On days
>>>like these, depending on what I need to do, I may take more assistance
>>>than on good days, but I try to be as independent as possible even on
>>>these days, but this also is just because of my personality as much as
>>>it is related to blindness! Smile. While going to school, classmates
>>>became accustomed to me doing things and getting around without help,
>>>and I led the way when it came to when and if I needed assistance. When
>>>classmates would see me around campus, they eventually stopped asking if
>>>I needed help and would just approach me like they would anyone else.
>>>They let me do the asking, and instead, we were able to cultivate
>>>relationships.
>>
>>>The positive energy and confidence we put off helps as much as our
>>>actions. If we present ourselves in as confident of a manner as possible
>>>in any given situation, people will pick up on this and respect us as
>>>people. The more we work on our confidence, the more people will take
>>>note, and more importantly, the better off we feel about our
>>>independence and capabilities.
>>
>>>Sincerely,
>>>Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter
>>>Read my blog at:
>>>http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/
>>
>>>"History is not what happened; history is what was written down."
>>>The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan
>>
>>>Message: 21
>>>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 23:10:14 -0500
>>>From: Patrick Molloy <ptrck.molloy at gmail.com>
>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>        <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc.
>>>Message-ID:
>>
>>><CAN+-G_CeC3zdSdX+TEE1od6936YObAZRvSXG9KXQg2eKU2Ba+g at mail.gmail.com>
>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>>>I find it quite ironic that, in trying to help us, sighted people
>>>often cause more of a problem with regard to street crossing. Again,
>>>they really do mean well, but their method of help still leaves a lot
>>>to be desired (if desired at all.)
>>>Patrick
>>
>>
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>>
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