[nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help

Sat Nov 12 15:54:42 UTC 2011

What I always do is if I'm walking with someone, which I don't usually call
it sighted guide.  I just call it walking with someone, I usually will just
touch their elbow and keep my cane with me but keep it in the right hand and
keep it to my side just in case I need to use it.  I do use it when like
we're outside and there are street crossings and things like that. 
-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Carly
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 7:45 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National
Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help

Good morning, Ashley,

To me, the term "sighted guide" ought not necessarily be reflective of
whether a person can ocularly, see, but a description of someone fulfilling
a role as a guide. For this reason I completely reject that term, for my own
use.
Things don't need to be defined into oblivion.   At 03:40 PM 
11/10/2011, Ashley Bramlett wrote:
>Mark,
>I agree with you. I go sighted guide a lot when walking and talking 
>with another person. Its easier to keep in contact with them and 
>faster. Also, if I I use my cane, it might trip them. If you follow 
>them, where does the person stand so your cane isn't in the way? If 
>they're ahead of you, they cannot see your cane arc. Do they walk 
>behind and give directions?
>
>We cannot say we're independent and get a sighted guide everywhere we 
>go. Yet, in some circumstances, I think sighted guide is appropriate. 
>It just depends.
>IMO, independence means we're in control of where we go and what we're 
>doing. So going out for dinner and grabbing an elbowof a companion 
>seems reasonable. You made a decision where to go and how to get there 
>and likely you'll use one group member as a reader of your bill and the 
>menu.
>
>I guess we balance when to use a guide. Mark, yes you can hang on to a 
>blind person. That is why they call it human guide now, not sighted guide.
>O&M instructors changed the term recognizing that blind people can and 
>do guide each other.
>
>Ashley
>-----Original Message----- From: Marc Workman
>Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 6:26 PM
>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing and streetcrossing help
>
>Jedi wrote,
>>we can't claim that we want to be independent travellers and ask for a 
>>sighted guide everywhere we go.
>
>I take this to mean that, if you are unable to travel anywhere without 
>sighted guide, you cannot call yourself an independent traveller.  This 
>seems right and uncontroversial.  But I think others, and I'm not 
>referring to the statement above, have made statements, which I'm too 
>lazy right now to find and cite directly, that suggest it is better, in 
>general, not to go sighted guide even when it is available.  There are 
>times when it's appropriate no doubt, but as a rule, independence 
>requires foregoing sighted guide even when you are walking with a 
>sighted person.  Perhaps there are more nuanced positions, and I'd be 
>interested in hearing those, but this is a sentiment I believe I've 
>picked up on.
>
>The thing that puzzles me is that it seems to be acceptable to "depend" 
>on the person with whom you are walking in certain ways (for example, 
>it's okay to listen to footsteps, or the persons voice, or follow 
>directions like left or right), but it's not acceptable to "depend" on 
>the person if it involves putting two fingers on the back of someone's 
>elbow.  Why is one form of dependence acceptable while the other is 
>not?
>
>Now, this could be a difference in the definition of sighted guide.  
>When I go sighted guide, I continue to rely on my cane to find curbs, 
>stairs, poles, etc.  I've always thought it strange to put the cane 
>away during sighted guide, not because I care about dependence or 
>independence, but because I would feel unsafe.  I suppose if you put 
>away the cane and relied exclusively on the sighted person, this would 
>constitute a difference between sighted guide and listening to 
>footsteps, but as I said, this isn't my version of sighted guide.  For 
>me, a light touch on the elbow is just a more convenient way of 
>tracking the person with whom I'm talking than is listening to 
>footsteps or voice.  I do the same thing with my girlfriend who is also 
>blind.
>
>I go sighted guide nearly all of the time when I'm walking and talking 
>with another person even if that person is not sighted.  Obviously, if 
>I'm travelling alone, there is no sighted guide, and I'm perfectly 
>comfortable with that.  I don't think this is a matter of dependence or 
>independence since, whether I depend on footsteps/voice/directions or a 
>light touch on the elbow, I'm equally dependent.  To me, this is a 
>matter of convenience. I could go from my apartment to my office, which 
>involves a bus ride, an LRT ride, and a walk across campus, without my 
>cane.  I've walked it enough times that I'm sure I could do it, but it 
>would be far less convenient to do it this way.  Yet no one would 
>suggest that I'm dependent on my cane, or at least no one would suggest 
>that I ought to try to be less dependent on my cane.  Similarly, when 
>I'm having a conversation or receiving assistance from another person, 
>I could listen to footsteps/voice/directions, but I find this far less 
>convenient than lightly touching an elbow.
>
>I recognize that some people may see this and believe that I could not 
>do it on my own, but they would be mistaken.  I also know that those 
>same people might assume that all blind people are like me and would 
>not be able to do it on their own either and that these beliefs might 
>affect, probably negatively, their interactions with other blind 
>people.  Again, however, this would be their mistake, their prejudice, 
>and their discrimination.  And while I regret that situation, I won't 
>let people's ignorance and stupidity dictate my behaviour.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Marc
>On 2011-11-10, at 12:44 PM, Jedi wrote:
>
>>Bridgit,
>>
>>I'm with you entirely on the idea that a person, of any sort, walking 
>>alone should indicate that help is not needed. But I think those 
>>blindness attitudes tend to erode good sense. And I'm with you that 
>>our actions mean a lot; we can't claim that we want to be independent 
>>travelers and ask for a sighted guide everywhere we go.
>>I'm sorry to say that this is one of the few situations in which we 
>>can't have our cake and eat it, too.
>>
>>Respectfully,
>>Jedi
>>
>>Original message:
>>>I can kind of understand how those with little to no exposure to 
>>>blindness may be concerned and curious as to how we do something like 
>>>cross a street, but, and this may be my naivety talking, when a 
>>>person sees a grown person walking about on their own, does common 
>>>sense not dictate that perhaps, while not fully understanding it, 
>>>that person is probably okay? Maybe they can ask if we need anything, 
>>>but it's a little difficult for me to understand how we can obviously 
>>>be doing things with no help, but when a sighted person is around we 
>>>suddenly need their help? I guess I'm still acclimating to stuff like
this.
>>
>>>In crowded situations, I'll take sighted guide sometimes, more so, so 
>>>I don't lose whoever I'm with, but I think it helps when we do as 
>>>much as possible independently. I also suffer episodes of extremely 
>>>low blood pressure which makes me dizzy, weak and can affect my 
>>>balance. On days like these, depending on what I need to do, I may 
>>>take more assistance than on good days, but I try to be as 
>>>independent as possible even on these days, but this also is just 
>>>because of my personality as much as it is related to blindness! 
>>>Smile. While going to school, classmates became accustomed to me 
>>>doing things and getting around without help, and I led the way when 
>>>it came to when and if I needed assistance. When classmates would see 
>>>me around campus, they eventually stopped asking if I needed help and
would just approach me like they would anyone else.
>>>They let me do the asking, and instead, we were able to cultivate 
>>>relationships.
>>
>>>The positive energy and confidence we put off helps as much as our 
>>>actions. If we present ourselves in as confident of a manner as 
>>>possible in any given situation, people will pick up on this and 
>>>respect us as people. The more we work on our confidence, the more 
>>>people will take note, and more importantly, the better off we feel 
>>>about our independence and capabilities.
>>
>>>Sincerely,
>>>Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter
>>>Read my blog at:
>>>http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/
>>
>>>"History is not what happened; history is what was written down."
>>>The Expected One- Kathleen McGowan
>>
>>>Message: 21
>>>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 23:10:14 -0500
>>>From: Patrick Molloy <ptrck.molloy at gmail.com>
>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>        <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Grabbing etc.
>>>Message-ID:
>>
>>><CAN+-G_CeC3zdSdX+TEE1od6936YObAZRvSXG9KXQg2eKU2Ba+g at mail.gmail.com>
>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>>>I find it quite ironic that, in trying to help us, sighted people 
>>>often cause more of a problem with regard to street crossing. Again, 
>>>they really do mean well, but their method of help still leaves a lot 
>>>to be desired (if desired at all.) Patrick
>>
>>
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>>
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