[nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups

Mon Nov 21 04:50:20 UTC 2011

Learning socially appropriate behaviors is one thing, but I'm starting to think we take it way too seriously to the point of hurting ourselves. At some point, enough is enough. For me, that's what this entire conversation was about starting with Arielle's very first post on blindness and other minorities.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Sent from my iPhone

On 20/11/2011, at 9:38 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Arielle,
> I think the federation philosophy stresses blending in and conformity. After all we want to eliminate stereotypes and
> fit in. Remember Mr. Omvig's book the Secret to Empowerment? He covered as an ingredient of training to be well dressed and show an appropriate appearance; so grooming, clothes, manners, that sort of thing falls into this area.
> 
> Those who do not communicate well and observe social norms are outcasted, whether sighted or blind. But if we do something odd, its not because we're just being ourselves, its attributed to blindness, whether the cause is blindness or something else like a personality querk.
> Children learn what is socially right and social norms from observation; so as Bridgit said, we should learn those things too growing up.
> As adults we can choose what to do. But if we do not have that information, we cannot choose.
> So I'd be curious to know if anyone has learned nonverbals and incorporated them into their daily communication habits.
> 
> As to the question of accepting people who eat with their hands, I'd say no. In our culture, we eat with silverware except for finger foods such as fries, chips, and sandwiches. There is no reason a blind person cannot learn these table manners and how to eat. When and how to eat is a culture thing. So, we should know what the culture does. If I went to some
> Asian country, it would be accepted and yes expected to eat with the hands. So do what the culture does. But here in America, its silverware. And, people can and do notice long after you've gone about your manners.
> 
> Here is an example. I interned at National library service, NLS, and one outspoken guy from another section often ate with me in the lunch room. He told me that a certain blind person was not the cleanest eater. He further said that he saw past blind employees eating with their hands and found that gross and he told them it wasn't right and may have suggested they learn to eat right. So people do notice your behavior, especially bad behavior.
> 
> Ashley
> 
> 
> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman
> Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 8:24 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness vs. Other Minority Groups
> 
> Sean,
> I believe eating with one's hands is more common than using silverware
> in some cultures. So, eating with silverware is another example of a
> norm that is culturally constructed but is largely arbitrary, and as
> far as I know, eating with one's hands never harms anyone. I fail to
> see why eating with the hands would be discouraged in an "ideal"
> society, unless you are arguing that an "ideal" society is one in
> which people always conform to common standards, and I think Marc is
> arguing the opposite point. I think expecting blind people to conform
> to sighted norms is similar to expecting someone from a culture where
> eating is done with the hands to use a fork and spoon. There is
> definitely merit to both sides of this larger issue, but the issue of
> whether or not to expect conformity in general strays from the
> blindness realm.
>> From a pragmatic perspective, I think it is beneficial to give blind
> children as many tools as possible to attain success and acceptance,
> including information about how the sighted majority behaves and what
> they expect. As blind children grow into adulthood, they can make
> their own choices about how much they want to conform and satisfy the
> expectations of others versus maintaining their individual identities.
> This is a balance that all people deal with, sighted and blind.
> Best,
> Arielle
> 
> On 11/20/11, Sean Whalen <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have been reading threw the portion of this thread related to concealing
>> aspects of oneself and/or changing behavior to fit into the mold of what is
>> considered "normal" by society. It is a very interesting question, and I
>> find the arguments advanced by Marc and Arielle quite persuasive. I can't,
>> however, shake the feeling that blind kids should be discouraged from
>> rocking or engaging in other behavior that is considered outside the
>> mainstream.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> First, let me say, I couldn't agree more that the call for blind folks to
>> hide their eyes if they look abnormal is misguided, and, frankly, fairly
>> offensive. I am 100% on board with the notion that we need not, and in fact
>> should not, hide part of what and who we are simply for the comfort or
>> convenience of others. If somebody wants to wear sunglasses that is entirely
>> their decision, and there is absolutely no problem with it, but nobody ought
>> to be suggesting that anybody do so for anybody else's benefit.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Regarding the question of so called "blindisms," I tend to agree with Greg
>> that we have precious little choice but to be pragmatic about the issue and
>> dissuade blind folks from rocking, poking, etc., if we want them to be set
>> up to compete and succeed socially and professionally. I might cede the
>> point that, in an ideal world, folks wouldn't be judged on such ultimately
>> inconsequential attributes. However, if I were to grant this point, I would
>> do so with some reluctance. How far does this go by logical extension? What
>> if I like to eat my pasta and salad with my hands rather than a fork and
>> knife? Should people just accept that and move on, or is there some real
>> value in conforming to social norms there? The same question could just as
>> easily be asked regarding a sighted child who prefers to eat with his hands.
>> Is that Ok? Would an ideal society accept that as something that harms
>> nobody; merely a personal preference to be respected? I don't see how the
>> answer to the former can be "yes," and the latter "no." Maybe that's Ok, but
>> it seems to me that, when you get right down to it, a whole lot of what we
>> deem acceptable and unacceptable  - a large part of the foundation of our
>> society - is based on nothing more than a general approval or disapproval of
>> it among the populous, and, if you feel that we ought not to be telling
>> blind kids not to rock or bob, there are a whole slew of other things we
>> ought not to be telling folks in general to do or not do.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Finally, related to nonverbal communication, you won't catch me dropping fat
>> cash on modeling classes in the hopes of appropriately arching my eyebrows
>> at just the right moment, but I think the basics are important. As has been
>> said, many facial expressions are built in. I have never been taught how to
>> look happy, sad, or irritated, but when I feel it, I look it. Perhaps this
>> is different for everybody, but some basic animation in the face seems to
>> come pretty naturally. And, for the record, I have never seen a face.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Facing somebody when in conversation and shaking hands when introduced would
>> seem to fall into the realm of common courtesy. They're social norms, to be
>> sure, but I see absolutely no reason that blind individuals shouldn't be
>> expected to adopt these norms like anybody else. I am not saying that
>> anybody has argued that we shouldn't be expected to do so, but we should. If
>> I meet somebody and they don't offer a hand, barring some obvious reason not
>> to, it seems rude. This ties back into the above point that once we accept
>> that some people will rock, etc., we might have to accept a lot of other
>> actions, or lacks of action, based on the same rationale.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Take care,
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sean
>> 
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