[nabs-l] Job Hunting

Fri Aug 10 11:04:18 UTC 2012

Hi Gloria and all,
I am sorry I am late posting to this thread, but it is so incredibly
important that I want to add some more thoughts.
First, Gloria everyone has written that you should not be discouraged.
And I can't emphasize that enough; job hunting for everyone, as we all
know is just so incredibly discouraging in this economy.  In my
experience,  I knew this fact on an intellectual level, but it wasn't
until February however, when I started looking for a job in earnest
that I realized just how difficult, frustrating and depressing it is
to find a job. It took me five months to find a job, and I am one of
the lucky ones, since I only graduated in May. So, yes it's hard.
Which ironically makes it all the more important for us to get work
experience while still in college.
Thus, I would just like to add a few thoughts here.
I graduated with a BA in psychology and music. Originally, I wanted to
go into a PHD program in psychology, until I realized that there are
few things I like less than doing psychological research. However,
during my time in college I was fortunate enough to have internships
during the summer. One of them was working for the Atlanta Harm
Reduction Center or AHRC. AHRC is a combination of a day shelter and
service provider for marginalized communities, i.e. homeless
individuals, severe drug users, etc. So, yes, as a totally blind
person you can do the job!
I think part of why I was successful in attaining the position was
that I emphasized how passionate I felt about the job and AHRC's
mission. I know that seems pretty self-evident, but seriously, if a
certain organization simply lights you up from the inside, let it be
known! Furthermore, many people don't realize that when you are
homeless, shunned from society, sometimes it is easier to identify
with people who are similarly viewed by society. In other words, as
blind people we know that many sighted individuals judge us instantly
because we are using a cane. Their judgment calls range from, "oh,
they must have all other kinds of sensory trouble"; to "that poor
blind person, how can they possibly do anything". Please, don't get me
wrong, I know that this is not the view of all sighted individuals,
but I think most people in this list know exactly what I am talking
about. And sadly, this is how many people view homeless individuals,
except that it is a hundred times worse. We are judgmental creatures,
and the more and more we are exposed to homelessness the more
desensitized we become to it. Thus, society often blames the homeless
for falling into that situation. They don't see the person they just
see a homeless person, a representative of a greater group that is
branded with negative characteristics. All of this is to say that many
homeless individuals, youths at risk, etc. actually find it, at least
in my personal experience, easier to identify with people who have
disabilities and who are trying to work with them. You will always
have to gain their respect, people who have lived in the streets
aren't an easy crowd, but if you do, you can get a lot of good things
done. When you are interviewing with closed minded individuals, never
ever shy away from the fact that you are blind. If I am sensing that
an interviewer is uncomfortable, I will say something like "So, I am
blind. And I'm sure you have many many questions on how I can do the
job and be an asset to you. So feel free to ask." Throughout the
interview I often emphasize the fact that that being blind has forced
me to think outside the box and use alternative methods to accomplish
my goals. Which in life often translates to being able to see
alternative solutions to other problems, just because I have been
forced to think sideways instead of just forward and backwards.
Aside from these philosophy type thoughts, I would also recommend that
you look into programs sponsored by your college to work for the types
of places you want to. Even if there aren't official programs,
professors and faculty often have affiliations with community based
organizations for at risk youth etc. Furthermore, make sure you have
an excellent resume! Contact your career center and see how they can
help you. And don't give up! You will have many many doors shut on
you, but one day one of them will stay open. Promise.
Sincerely,
Mary

On 8/8/12, Greg Aikens <gpaikens at gmail.com> wrote:
> Gloria,
> It does sound like  you are handling things well.  I would only add a couple
> of things to the advice already given.
>
> First, be sure to emphasize any experience you do have in the area.  You
> talked about explaining how you would do something (future tense) but
> hearing you explain how you have already done something would be more
> powerful to a potential employer.
>
> Second, if you can find a way to portray your blindness as a strength
> instead of a disadvantage, liability, etc., it could really turn things
> around for you in an interview.  For example, I have been applying for jobs
> as a teacher of students who are blind and visually impaired and have been
> able to use my experiences as a blind student as a selling point in my
> interviews.  I realize that not every position lends itself as easily to
> this kind of thing, but if you can draw from unique personal experiences you
> have had related to being blind that have shaped your approach to your field
> of study, it could be a powerful tool for changing perceptions.
>
> I hope this helps and I wish you the best of luck.  Try not to be
> discouraged.  Your blindness does not impact your ability to work with
> youth.
>
> -Greg
>
> On Aug 7, 2012, at 6:25 PM, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes, I believe you can configure JAWS to automatically start up when
>> you boot the PC, even if it is in demo mode, and you can shut it down
>> and restart independently as long as the 40-minute demo period hasn't
>> expired. In my experience the need to restart was a nuisance but
>> didn't affect my productivity on the job much.
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 8/7/12, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> I want to use the demo mode for a volunteer position. However, will I be
>>> able to restart the computer independently? If I restart before jaws
>>> runs
>>> out of demo mode, will it come on in demo mode and run automatically? I
>>> would need to log in and tab to okay to get into the system.
>>> I would rather have jaws speak this to me, but I suppose I could memorize
>>> it
>>>
>>> if needed and click on jaws on the desktop when the pc is booted.
>>> I thought about getting a jaws key from FS but unless my time expands
>>> there,
>>>
>>> I may not want to use limited authorization keys on their pc.
>>>
>>> Yep, good question, can you run demo mode for an extended time on one
>>> pc?
>>>
>>> Ashley
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Arielle Silverman
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 6:45 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Job Hunting
>>>
>>> I think it depends on the job; I have had a few different summer jobs
>>> and internships where a Braille notetaker was not required, just
>>> access to a PC. Braille displays are important devices and they
>>> definitely assist with certain types of work, but there are plenty of
>>> jobs we can do with merely a computer with speech output.
>>> Also, when I was in high school I worked two different summer
>>> internships using JAWS in demo mode, which meant neither my employer
>>> nor I had to pay a dime. I'm not sure if this is an option anymore or
>>> if JAWS only allows demo mode for a few days, but if it is an option
>>> to run JAWS in demo mode for a month or two, it may be a viable
>>> option.
>>> I would just add that in this economy it is tough for everyone, not
>>> just blind folks, to find work. I know at least a few sighted people
>>> who have spent months or even years looking for work, so if you're not
>>> hired, it may not be due to blindness. Gloria, if you'd be willing to
>>> share some of the specific issues your potential employers raised
>>> about how you would do the work, I might have some suggestions for
>>> ways to get around any barriers although it sounds like you are going
>>> about things the right way. What kinds of activities are you hoping to
>>> do with the at-risk youth and what specific things are the employers
>>> worried about?
>>> Arielle
>>>
>>> On 8/7/12, Aleeha Dudley <blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Strange. My vr got my apex bt32 for me with no complaints.
>>>>
>>>> Aleeha Dudley
>>>> President, Ohio Association of Blind Students
>>>> Changing what it means to be blind
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 7, 2012, at 5:08 PM, Joshua Lester
>>>> <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I talked to HumanWare about the Braille Note Apex.
>>>>> They said, since Rehab wouldn't buy anything over $6000, that if you
>>>>> bought a Braille Note Apex, with an 18 cell display, for $4000, you
>>>>> could then upgrade to a 32 cell, for $1600.
>>>>> That's Rehab's job.
>>>>> They should help you, if you're either in school, or working.
>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/7/12, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Joshua,
>>>>>> Most people need more than jaws on the job; a braille display and a
>>>>>> notetaker are often needed.
>>>>>> When you look for work, you will find how expensive technology is and
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> your employer is hesitant to hire you and buy it when they can hire
>>>>>> sighted
>>>>>>
>>>>>> people with no accomodation purchases.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Joshua Lester
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 9:43 AM
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Job Hunting
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi, Hope.
>>>>>> What assistive technology would you need, that would be expensive?
>>>>>> Who needs Jaws, when there's NVDA, which is free?
>>>>>> Just a suggestion.
>>>>>> Thanks, Joshua
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/7/12, Hope Paulos <hope.paulos at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi there. I received my degree in secondary education with
>>>>>>> concentration
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> Spanish and another in modern languages focusing in Spanish and
>>>>>>> German.
>>>>>>> I've
>>>>>>> decided though, that I do not want to teach. I would rather be a
>>>>>>> vocational
>>>>>>> rehabilitation counselor. I know that if I work at my state agency,
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> receive funding assistance with the grant provided by our essay. I'm
>>>>>>> hoping
>>>>>>> to go that route and obtain my masters degree. Unfortunately, public
>>>>>>> schools
>>>>>>> are also places of discrimination. It is very unlikely that they
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> hire
>>>>>>> totally blind individual to teach a high school Spanish class
>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>> concerns. They would need to hire an Ed Tech and also there are some
>>>>>>> specific assistive to technology that I would need that is very
>>>>>>> expensive.
>>>>>>> For example, Braille display, et cetera.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2012, at 10:19 PM, "Ashley Bramlett"
>>>>>>> <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hope,
>>>>>>>> Are you working? If not, what is your area of study? I thought you
>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>> studying to be a Spanish teacher or something.
>>>>>>>> I saw you on the nobe list, so I know you want to teach.
>>>>>>>> Its too bad they did what they did to you. Discrimination is live
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>> around here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Hope Paulos
>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 9:18 PM
>>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Job Hunting
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I couldn't agree more. Well said!!! There was an instance where I
>>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>> applied for an interpreter work-at-home position and I had the
>>>>>>>> skills
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> passed the language part of the interview with flying colors. As
>>>>>>>> soon
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> mentioned I was blind I was told that I couldn't use  a computer to
>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>> notes, but sighted people could use pencils. I was told I wouldn't
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>> fit because I had to take breaks to take my dog outside. It was
>>>>>>>> blatent
>>>>>>>> discrimination. Needless to say I filed a complaint with department
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> justice and they got  called out. I don't think they'll be doing
>>>>>>>> anything
>>>>>>>> like that again. Just keep advocating!!
>>>>>>>> Hope
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>> Of Gloria G
>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 9:05 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Misty Dawn Bradley; National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Job Hunting
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>> What I find interesting is the organizations that provide services
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> persons with disabilities and tell the clients they can do whatever
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> put
>>>>>>>> their minds to as long as they work hard and advicate for
>>>>>>>> themselves,
>>>>>>>> turn
>>>>>>>> away a blind person because they feel we are unable to complete
>>>>>>>> tasks.
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Misty Dawn Bradley" <mistydbradley at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 7:49 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Job Hunting
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>> I also ran into the same issue when applying for a full-time
>>>>>>>>> position
>>>>>>>>> with AmeriCorps. The people conducting the interview kept
>>>>>>>>> emphasizing
>>>>>>>>> the paperwork, and I tried to explain that there are ways that I
>>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>>> do the paperwork, but I still did not get the position. It
>>>>>>>>> surprised
>>>>>>>>> me, because I worked in that same office and turned in all reports
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> paperwork on time, although I had a different supervisor and it
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> different program. I think part of it was that I did not have
>>>>>>>>> experience in the area of the position, but I also think part of
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> was the paperwork, because that point was emphasized indirectly
>>>>>>>>> during
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> interview.
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>> Misty
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Gloria G" <gloria.graves at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 8:41 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Job Hunting
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>> I am not offended or anything by the questions that are asked. I
>>>>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>>>> just upset that I am not given a chance. It is almost as if the
>>>>>>>>>> employer has decided what I can and can not do the minute I walk
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> the door with my cane.
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "David Dodge" <daviddod at buffalo.edu>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 7:36 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Job Hunting
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Gloria,
>>>>>>>>>>> It definitely sounds like you are going about things the right
>>>>>>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I would try not to get discouraged or be concerned by the
>>>>>>>>>>> questions
>>>>>>>>>>> the interviewer is asking. It is definitely not a bad thing for
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> blind person to help a sighted person better understand how the
>>>>>>>>>>> employment would work.
>>>>>>>>>>> Think of it as an opportunity for you to advocate and teach the
>>>>>>>>>>> potential employer something.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The best that can be done is what you are doing - honestly
>>>>>>>>>>> answering
>>>>>>>>>>> questions and explaining things.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> David
>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>> David Dodge
>>>>>>>>>>> Diversity in Disability Planning Committee Chairperson English
>>>>>>>>>>> Major
>>>>>>>>>>> University at Buffalo
>>>>>>>>>>> 306 Clemens Hall
>>>>>>>>>>> Buffalo, NY 14260
>>>>>>>>>>> daviddod at buffalo.edu
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 8:28 PM, Gloria G
>>>>>>>>>>> <gloria.graves at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Hope,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you go to get your masters in rehab counseling? I have also
>>>>>>>>>>>> thought of getting a masters in rehab counseling.
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hope Paulos"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <hope.paulos at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" <
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 7:16 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Job Hunting
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No. I'm currently hunting for a job as well. I just answered
>>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>>> as you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> do,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> explaining how I would do certain things and giving examples.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> applied for a vocational rehabilitation counselor I. position
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would be working with individuals with disabilities as well
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mental  health diagnoses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nothing offends me so they can ask any question they want
>>>>>>>>>>>>> regarding my blindness. It's just a matter of overcoming the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> stereotypes put on us by people who don't know what we really
>>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Behalf
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of Gloria G
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 8:13 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Job Hunting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Hope,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you currently work? If so how did you get around those
>>>>>>>>>>>>> questions?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hope Paulos"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <hope.paulos at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 6:52 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Job Hunting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Gloria. I think you're taking the right approach. I always
>>>>>>>>>>>>> disclose my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindness (it's hard for them not to see  that I'm blind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of my guide dog). I'd just continue to advocate for yourself
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> far as working with at risk youth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hope
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.**org<nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org>]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of Gloria G
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 7:24 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Job Hunting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was wondering how do you handle interviews when the talk of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindness comes up? I have had some interviews and in some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cases
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the interviewer does not bring up my blindness, but I know it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something that is very noticable as soon as I walk in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> door.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to remain calm and answer the questions that pertain to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> position I am applying for and I discuss how I would handle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tasks despite my blindness. There are those interviewers who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> come right out and ask how I am going to complete the task
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> required of me as a blind person. I answer and give examples
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how I would complete the tasks. I guess I should have started
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by saying I am a psychology and sociology double major and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to work with at risk youth as a counselor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because I do not yet have my degree I am trying to gain as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience as possible because this is what future employers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be looking for, but the problem I run into is there are many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> organizations that work with at risk youth in the town I live
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but there is always the question of how I am going to work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the youth as a blind person. I have also thought of doing any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work that envolved providing services to youth, women,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> families
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such as, homeless shelters and things of that nature. I am
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feeling defeated at this point, because every door I have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opened
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has closed shut in my face, and it only seems to be due to me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being blind. I just want someone to give me a chance because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know I can do the work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> hope.paulos%40gmail.com<http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_n
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________
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-- 
Mary Fernandez
Emory 2012
"A pioneer is not someone who makes her own soap. She is one who takes
up her burdens and walks toward the future."
--
Laurel Thatcher Ulrich