[nabs-l] Please Change the Subject Line was Re: Microsoftproductaccessibility

[Nicole B. Torcolini at Home]

Just out of curiosity, what kind of error do you get? What system/email 
service are you using to send the messages? That is very strange. It only 
has the problem when you try to start a new thread, but not when you reply 
to an old one? Are you sure that you have the correct address?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gloria G" <gloria.graves at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Please Change the Subject Line was Re: 
Microsoftproductaccessibility


>I would do that if there wasn't an issues when I use the nabs mailing list 
>email address. When i try to send a new message I get an email that says 
>something about an error. So sorry that this interupted your reading in any 
>way. I didn't think it was such a big deal
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:17 AM
> Subject: [nabs-l] Please Change the Subject Line was Re: Microsoft 
> productaccessibility
>
>
>> Please either start a new thread or change the subject line, especially 
>> when the new topic is not related to the old.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Gloria G" <gloria.graves at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 7:58 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Microsoft product accessibility
>>
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> Has anyone used blackboard for classes? I have to post questions in the 
>>> discussion portion of the site and am not sure how to do that with using 
>>> jaws. I no when surching for other things like powerpoints posted by 
>>> profesors I have little trouble, but when posting discussion or replying 
>>> to a post I have difficulity. If anyone can help that would be great. 
>>> Thanks a bunch
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 12:31 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Microsoft product accessibility
>>>
>>>
>>>> Yes, Access in Office 2003 was accessible. As a matter of fact, I used 
>>>> it to do a project that was geared toward blind users.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Katie Wang" <bunnykatie6 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:29 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Microsoft product accessibility
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi, Ashley and all,
>>>>>
>>>>> While I agree that having to re-learn where all the features are in MS
>>>>> Office 2010can be pretty annoying for both sighted and blind users
>>>>> alike, I have to  say that, having transitioned from MS Office 2003 to
>>>>> 2010 recently, I don't believe that the newer version is less
>>>>> accessible. As someone suggested earlier in this thread, the Virtual
>>>>> Menu feature of JAWS 12 or later makes the ribbons behave in a manner
>>>>> that is pretty similar to traditional menus, thereby eliminating a lot
>>>>> of the confusion Ashley was referring to. Although I did run into a
>>>>> few instances where I'm not sure how to perform a certain task, it was
>>>>> easily resolved by a quick Google search, and I believe this is simply
>>>>> part of the process of learning to use a new program.
>>>>>
>>>>> As a graduate student who relies heavily on the MS Office suite and
>>>>> someone who is not always eager to learn the most recent technology,
>>>>> I'm by no means discounting anyone's frustration. However, I do think
>>>>> that, since Windows XP and MS Office 2003 have been around for a long
>>>>> time, (they were here when I was first introduced to JAWS), it is easy
>>>>> for us to claim that something new is not user-friendly simply because
>>>>> we are not used to how it works yet. Some of you may remember me
>>>>> posting about alternative email clients in Windows 7 a while ago
>>>>> because I was confused by Outlook 2010 and missed the simplicity of
>>>>> Outlook Express a lot. I'm pleased to report that I have since figured
>>>>> out the basics of Outlook 2010 and found that the email program
>>>>> actually works pretty well (in fact, it has some features I do
>>>>> appreciate that were not available in Outlook Express). In short, I
>>>>> would encourage everyone to be patient when approaching a new
>>>>> program-- We all need to upgrade to the latest version of Office
>>>>> sooner or later to keep up with mainstream users, and you might be
>>>>> surprised by the benefits of a new program once you allow yourself
>>>>> time to play around with it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Katie
>>>>>
>>>>> PS: As far as I know, MS Office Access is not accessible, but I don't
>>>>> believe it has ever been accessible in the past so this is not really
>>>>> a 2010 issue. I have never really used Access for anything though so
>>>>> don't have much to say about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 1/23/12, Jewel <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> A quick tip: Use TAB instead of the arrow keys when in the ribbons.
>>>>>> This will mean going through all of the options int hat ribbon, but
>>>>>> you won't miss anything, as you would if you used the arrow keys. I
>>>>>> learned this in a short class on using ?Word 2010 with JAWS. Also, 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> 1 of 4 is a grouping. For example, Cut copy past would all be in one
>>>>>> grouping. If you use the TAB, you can ignore this grouping and go 
>>>>>> thru
>>>>>> the options without worry of missing anything. It takes some practice
>>>>>> to get used to, and it takes extra time to get thru all of the
>>>>>> options, but it is accessible...just not as accessible, as was stated
>>>>>> before.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~Jewel
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/22/12, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>>> You are not a student and further probably do not use Office suite
>>>>>>> everyday;
>>>>>>> I don't even know if you have a job.
>>>>>>> Yet you seem to discount our collective experience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No one said Office suite was not accessible. David Dodge said that 
>>>>>>> it was
>>>>>>> becoming less accessible.
>>>>>>> That is true. The layout is confusing and again, Access is not 
>>>>>>> accessible.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> talked to a tech trainer about it and he told me so.
>>>>>>> It is also less user friendly. Certainly the basic word processing 
>>>>>>> stuff
>>>>>>> work well; the short cut commands still work i.e. control S for 
>>>>>>> save,
>>>>>>> control n for new document, Others like cut, copy, and paste are the 
>>>>>>> same.
>>>>>>> Yet, as you use the ribbons more its confusing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For instance: go to the reference tab. You hear a group saying 1 of 
>>>>>>> 5 and
>>>>>>> then you tab again; jaws says 1 of 4. Okay, what exactly is the 
>>>>>>> group? One
>>>>>>> of four what?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How do you get to the box options? Jaws says  group box. For 
>>>>>>> instance, you
>>>>>>> tab to footnote or table of contents. If you down arrow, there are 
>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>> options.
>>>>>>> Sure, I suppose word is accessible, but it is not user friendly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Peter Donahue
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 10:26 PM
>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Microsoft product accessibility
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello David and everyone,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     And especially when others are using these products without any
>>>>>>> trouble.
>>>>>>> Might I suggest checking your software and screen reader's 
>>>>>>> documentation
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> procedures and work-around to possible accessibility issues before
>>>>>>> declaring
>>>>>>> this or that product blind-unfriendly? We do that here and have 
>>>>>>> found
>>>>>>> fixes
>>>>>>> for many presumed inaccessibility concerns.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter Donahue
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 8:37 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Microsoft product accessibility
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would urge people to be more careful with how they word
>>>>>>> things.  Everyone is saying Office 2010 is not as
>>>>>>> accessible.  Strictly speaking, I don't think this is true.  You can
>>>>>>> get to all the controls and identify them with most screen
>>>>>>> readers.  I think the product may not be as usable for a blind
>>>>>>> person, but it is not inaccessible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am increasingly seeing a tendency on the part of the blind
>>>>>>> community to brand software or a web site inaccessible when it is
>>>>>>> that they just don't know how to use it, or their assistive 
>>>>>>> technology.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Surely there are problems out there, but we must be accurate when
>>>>>>> reporting them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David Andrews
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At 08:25 PM 1/22/2012, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>David,
>>>>>>>>I really agree! 2003 with its menus was more accessible. 2007 wasn't
>>>>>>>>too bad from what I heard. I did not try it though. I have 2010 and
>>>>>>>>feel its less accessible. As someone already said, access is not
>>>>>>>>accessible and in 2007 it was. Microsoft just had to change things; 
>>>>>>>>go
>>>>>>>>figure.
>>>>>>>>Does anyone have a point of contact for them in the accessibility
>>>>>>>>department or whomever handels access issues there.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Ashley
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>-----Original Message----- From: David Dodge
>>>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 9:12 PM
>>>>>>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] microsoft product accessibility
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Microsoft programs appear to me to be getting less and less 
>>>>>>>>accessible as
>>>>>>>>time goes on.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>If you are having accessibility issues with these products I 
>>>>>>>>recommend
>>>>>>>>contacting Microsoft from their website. It is unlikely that they 
>>>>>>>>will
>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>the feedback into consideration, but still.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>2003 and 2007 or certainly more accessible than 2010.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>David
>>>>>>>>----------------------------------
>>>>>>>>David Dodge
>>>>>>>>Doctoral Degree Granting Institutions Rep.
>>>>>>>>State University of New York Student Assembly
>>>>>>>>English Major
>>>>>>>>University at Buffalo
>>>>>>>>306 Clemens Hall
>>>>>>>>Buffalo, NY 14260
>>>>>>>>daviddod at buffalo.edu
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 9:08 PM, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home <
>>>>>>>>ntorcolini at wavecable.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>As far as my experience, there is no advantage to using 2007 or 
>>>>>>>>>2010,
>>>>>>>>>especially if you find 2003. Files created using 2007 and 2010 can 
>>>>>>>>>still
>>>>>>>>>be
>>>>>>>>>read and edited using 2003. I will leave it up to you, but my
>>>>>>>>>recommendation is to use Office 2003. There are ways to have both, 
>>>>>>>>>but
>>>>>>>>>they
>>>>>>>>>are not easy or convenient.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" <
>>>>>>>>>bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>>>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <
>>>>>>>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 4:56 PM
>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] microsoft product accessibility
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>its my computer. Gee would be nice to have both versions
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>-----Original Message----- From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home
>>>>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 7:46 PM
>>>>>>>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] microsoft product accessibility
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>No, you cannot. Is this your computer? If so, I would strongly 
>>>>>>>>>recommend
>>>>>>>>>just uninstalling the current version of Office and installing 
>>>>>>>>>Office
>>>>>>>>>2003.
>>>>>>>>>If it is not your computer, then maybe you could talk to someone 
>>>>>>>>>who has
>>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>authority to do it and explain that it would make things a million 
>>>>>>>>>times
>>>>>>>>>easier.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" <
>>>>>>>>>bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>>>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 4:18 PM
>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] microsoft product accessibility
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Nicole,
>>>>>>>>>I think I have an old cd with office 2003 around. Do you know if I 
>>>>>>>>>can
>>>>>>>>>have
>>>>>>>>>them concurrently on the computer?
>>>>>>>>>It just would be nice to have both options; so if I cannot figure 
>>>>>>>>>out
>>>>>>>>>where
>>>>>>>>>something is in the ribbons, I can go back to the nice, simple 
>>>>>>>>>menus of
>>>>>>>>>2003.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>-----Original Message----- From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home
>>>>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 7:10 PM
>>>>>>>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] microsoft product accessibility
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Yes. The excerpt is from the "What's New in JAWS 12.0" section. I 
>>>>>>>>>do not
>>>>>>>>>have Office 2007 or 2010, so I unfortunately cannot tell you how 
>>>>>>>>>well it
>>>>>>>>>works, but it is probably better than nothing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" <
>>>>>>>>>arielle71 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 4:00 PM
>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] microsoft product accessibility
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Does JAWS 12 have this?
>>>>>>>>>Arielle
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On 1/22/12, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home <ntorcolini at wavecable.com> 
>>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Do you know how to use the quick settings in JAWS? Copied from the 
>>>>>>>>>>JAWS
>>>>>>>>>>13
>>>>>>>>>>help:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Virtual Ribbon Menu
>>>>>>>>>>The Ribbon is a new style of menu available in many new 
>>>>>>>>>>applications
>>>>>>>>>>being
>>>>>>>>>>released today. Ribbons first appeared in Office 2007 programs, 
>>>>>>>>>>but are
>>>>>>>>>>now
>>>>>>>>>>becoming more common in other applications tailored for the 
>>>>>>>>>>Windows 7
>>>>>>>>>>operating system. Ribbons create an accessibility challenge due to
>>>>>>>>>>inconsistent navigation between various groups and items. For 
>>>>>>>>>>example,
>>>>>>>>>>when
>>>>>>>>>>you enter the Lower Ribbon and press the ARROW keys to move 
>>>>>>>>>>between
>>>>>>>>>> items
>>>>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>>>a group, you can skip items and unexpectedly move into another 
>>>>>>>>>>group.
>>>>>>>>>>Pressing TAB gives no indication that you have left one group and
>>>>>>>>>> entered
>>>>>>>>>>another. Using first letter navigation to find items can be 
>>>>>>>>>>difficult
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>frustrating. Finally, because of a group's layout, you do not know 
>>>>>>>>>>if
>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>should navigate up, down, left, or right to select an item.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>The new Virtual Ribbon Menu provides predictable navigation, lets 
>>>>>>>>>>you
>>>>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>>>>everything in the Ribbon, and offers consistency when navigating 
>>>>>>>>>>with
>>>>>>>>>>ARROW
>>>>>>>>>>keys. For example, the ARROW and TAB keys move focus from the 
>>>>>>>>>>Upper
>>>>>>>>>>Ribbon
>>>>>>>>>>tabs to the Lower Ribbon groups. Once in a group, the ARROW, TAB, 
>>>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>SHIFT+TAB keys move through all items in a group, move from one 
>>>>>>>>>>group to
>>>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>>next, and wrap to the beginning of the Ribbon. For submenus, 
>>>>>>>>>>SPACEBAR
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>ENTER expand menus, and ESCAPE collapses menus. The Virtual Ribbon 
>>>>>>>>>>Menu
>>>>>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>>>>off by default and can be switched on or off from within Settings 
>>>>>>>>>>Center
>>>>>>>>>>or
>>>>>>>>>>the JAWS Startup Wizard. When it is on, the Ribbon is navigated 
>>>>>>>>>>using a
>>>>>>>>>>traditional menu and submenu format familiar to most JAWS users.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>>>>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>>>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 3:30 PM
>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] microsoft product accessibility
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  jaws 13
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home
>>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 6:23 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] microsoft product accessibility
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>What version of JAWS are you using?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>>>>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 3:08 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: [nabs-l] microsoft product accessibility
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Seems like the office suite is less user friendly with the new
>>>>>>>>>>>> ribbons.
>>>>>>>>>>>>Occasionally I find a button unlabeled.
>>>>>>>>>>>>Anyway, is access and Publisher accessible at all? I'd like to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>create
>>>>>>>>>>>>simple charts with publisher and maybe brochures if I volunteer 
>>>>>>>>>>>>for pr
>>>>>>>>>>>>somewhere.
>>>>>>>>>>>>Is excell still accessible?
>>>>>>>>>>>>I'll need the access database for work probably.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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