[nabs-l] Microsoft product accessibility

Tue Jan 24 23:16:45 UTC 2012

Hi,
Thanks Nicole; exactly my point; access in prior versions was accessible and 
in 2010 its not.
As for the ribbons, okay you can get to them, but it takes lots of tabbing. 
Those of you who say to use the jaws virtual ribbon feature miss the point. 
That is a jaws feature, not a office suite feature! Not everyone has the 
latest jaws, and not everyone uses jaws. Have we forgotten that? Jaws is one 
of many screen readers. No one I know who relied on VR to purchase jaws has 
updated software. They have jaws 10 or 11 usually, so um, they cannot! rely 
on these new features.
Lets separate office commands from jaws. Besides sighted people have 
complained about the layout.

Anyway, it is what it is.

So, how do you use the group boxes when you tab to them?
How do you get to the other options? For instance in the page layout tab, in 
the lower ribbon you have several options of boxes. One says page setup 
group box. Another says  themes button drop down.. How do you go to those 
drop down items?
I'm hopeful all computer users will complain and suggest to microsoft we go 
back to menus. Only will then something change
Ashley

-----Original Message----- 
From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:31 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Microsoft product accessibility

Yes, Access in Office 2003 was accessible. As a matter of fact, I used it to
do a project that was geared toward blind users.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Katie Wang" <bunnykatie6 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 10:29 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Microsoft product accessibility

> Hi, Ashley and all,
>
> While I agree that having to re-learn where all the features are in MS
> Office 2010can be pretty annoying for both sighted and blind users
> alike, I have to  say that, having transitioned from MS Office 2003 to
> 2010 recently, I don't believe that the newer version is less
> accessible. As someone suggested earlier in this thread, the Virtual
> Menu feature of JAWS 12 or later makes the ribbons behave in a manner
> that is pretty similar to traditional menus, thereby eliminating a lot
> of the confusion Ashley was referring to. Although I did run into a
> few instances where I'm not sure how to perform a certain task, it was
> easily resolved by a quick Google search, and I believe this is simply
> part of the process of learning to use a new program.
>
> As a graduate student who relies heavily on the MS Office suite and
> someone who is not always eager to learn the most recent technology,
> I'm by no means discounting anyone's frustration. However, I do think
> that, since Windows XP and MS Office 2003 have been around for a long
> time, (they were here when I was first introduced to JAWS), it is easy
> for us to claim that something new is not user-friendly simply because
> we are not used to how it works yet. Some of you may remember me
> posting about alternative email clients in Windows 7 a while ago
> because I was confused by Outlook 2010 and missed the simplicity of
> Outlook Express a lot. I'm pleased to report that I have since figured
> out the basics of Outlook 2010 and found that the email program
> actually works pretty well (in fact, it has some features I do
> appreciate that were not available in Outlook Express). In short, I
> would encourage everyone to be patient when approaching a new
> program-- We all need to upgrade to the latest version of Office
> sooner or later to keep up with mainstream users, and you might be
> surprised by the benefits of a new program once you allow yourself
> time to play around with it.
>
> Katie
>
> PS: As far as I know, MS Office Access is not accessible, but I don't
> believe it has ever been accessible in the past so this is not really
> a 2010 issue. I have never really used Access for anything though so
> don't have much to say about it.
>
> On 1/23/12, Jewel <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> A quick tip: Use TAB instead of the arrow keys when in the ribbons.
>> This will mean going through all of the options int hat ribbon, but
>> you won't miss anything, as you would if you used the arrow keys. I
>> learned this in a short class on using ?Word 2010 with JAWS. Also, the
>> 1 of 4 is a grouping. For example, Cut copy past would all be in one
>> grouping. If you use the TAB, you can ignore this grouping and go thru
>> the options without worry of missing anything. It takes some practice
>> to get used to, and it takes extra time to get thru all of the
>> options, but it is accessible...just not as accessible, as was stated
>> before.
>>
>> ~Jewel
>>
>> On 1/22/12, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> Peter,
>>> You are not a student and further probably do not use Office suite
>>> everyday;
>>> I don't even know if you have a job.
>>> Yet you seem to discount our collective experience.
>>>
>>> No one said Office suite was not accessible. David Dodge said that it 
>>> was
>>> becoming less accessible.
>>> That is true. The layout is confusing and again, Access is not 
>>> accessible.
>>> I
>>> talked to a tech trainer about it and he told me so.
>>> It is also less user friendly. Certainly the basic word processing stuff
>>> work well; the short cut commands still work i.e. control S for save,
>>> control n for new document, Others like cut, copy, and paste are the 
>>> same.
>>> Yet, as you use the ribbons more its confusing.
>>>
>>> For instance: go to the reference tab. You hear a group saying 1 of 5 
>>> and
>>> then you tab again; jaws says 1 of 4. Okay, what exactly is the group? 
>>> One
>>> of four what?
>>>
>>> How do you get to the box options? Jaws says  group box. For instance, 
>>> you
>>> tab to footnote or table of contents. If you down arrow, there are no
>>> options.
>>> Sure, I suppose word is accessible, but it is not user friendly.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Peter Donahue
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 10:26 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Microsoft product accessibility
>>>
>>> Hello David and everyone,
>>>
>>>     And especially when others are using these products without any
>>> trouble.
>>> Might I suggest checking your software and screen reader's documentation
>>> for
>>> procedures and work-around to possible accessibility issues before
>>> declaring
>>> this or that product blind-unfriendly? We do that here and have found
>>> fixes
>>> for many presumed inaccessibility concerns.
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 8:37 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Microsoft product accessibility
>>>
>>>
>>> I would urge people to be more careful with how they word
>>> things.  Everyone is saying Office 2010 is not as
>>> accessible.  Strictly speaking, I don't think this is true.  You can
>>> get to all the controls and identify them with most screen
>>> readers.  I think the product may not be as usable for a blind
>>> person, but it is not inaccessible.
>>>
>>> I am increasingly seeing a tendency on the part of the blind
>>> community to brand software or a web site inaccessible when it is
>>> that they just don't know how to use it, or their assistive technology.
>>>
>>> Surely there are problems out there, but we must be accurate when
>>> reporting them.
>>>
>>> David Andrews
>>>
>>> At 08:25 PM 1/22/2012, you wrote:
>>>>David,
>>>>I really agree! 2003 with its menus was more accessible. 2007 wasn't
>>>>too bad from what I heard. I did not try it though. I have 2010 and
>>>>feel its less accessible. As someone already said, access is not
>>>>accessible and in 2007 it was. Microsoft just had to change things; go
>>>>figure.
>>>>Does anyone have a point of contact for them in the accessibility
>>>>department or whomever handels access issues there.
>>>>
>>>>Ashley
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message----- From: David Dodge
>>>>Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 9:12 PM
>>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] microsoft product accessibility
>>>>
>>>>Microsoft programs appear to me to be getting less and less accessible 
>>>>as
>>>>time goes on.
>>>>
>>>>If you are having accessibility issues with these products I recommend
>>>>contacting Microsoft from their website. It is unlikely that they will
>>>> take
>>>>the feedback into consideration, but still.
>>>>
>>>>2003 and 2007 or certainly more accessible than 2010.
>>>>
>>>>David
>>>>----------------------------------
>>>>David Dodge
>>>>Doctoral Degree Granting Institutions Rep.
>>>>State University of New York Student Assembly
>>>>English Major
>>>>University at Buffalo
>>>>306 Clemens Hall
>>>>Buffalo, NY 14260
>>>>daviddod at buffalo.edu
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 9:08 PM, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home <
>>>>ntorcolini at wavecable.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>As far as my experience, there is no advantage to using 2007 or 2010,
>>>>>especially if you find 2003. Files created using 2007 and 2010 can 
>>>>>still
>>>>>be
>>>>>read and edited using 2003. I will leave it up to you, but my
>>>>>recommendation is to use Office 2003. There are ways to have both, but
>>>>>they
>>>>>are not easy or convenient.
>>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" <
>>>>>bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <
>>>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 4:56 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] microsoft product accessibility
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>its my computer. Gee would be nice to have both versions
>>>>>
>>>>>-----Original Message----- From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home
>>>>>Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 7:46 PM
>>>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] microsoft product accessibility
>>>>>
>>>>>No, you cannot. Is this your computer? If so, I would strongly 
>>>>>recommend
>>>>>just uninstalling the current version of Office and installing Office
>>>>>2003.
>>>>>If it is not your computer, then maybe you could talk to someone who 
>>>>>has
>>>>>the
>>>>>authority to do it and explain that it would make things a million 
>>>>>times
>>>>>easier.
>>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" <
>>>>>bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 4:18 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] microsoft product accessibility
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Nicole,
>>>>>I think I have an old cd with office 2003 around. Do you know if I can
>>>>>have
>>>>>them concurrently on the computer?
>>>>>It just would be nice to have both options; so if I cannot figure out
>>>>>where
>>>>>something is in the ribbons, I can go back to the nice, simple menus of
>>>>>2003.
>>>>>
>>>>>-----Original Message----- From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home
>>>>>Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 7:10 PM
>>>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] microsoft product accessibility
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes. The excerpt is from the "What's New in JAWS 12.0" section. I do 
>>>>>not
>>>>>have Office 2007 or 2010, so I unfortunately cannot tell you how well 
>>>>>it
>>>>>works, but it is probably better than nothing.
>>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" <
>>>>>arielle71 at gmail.com>
>>>>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 4:00 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] microsoft product accessibility
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Does JAWS 12 have this?
>>>>>Arielle
>>>>>
>>>>>On 1/22/12, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home <ntorcolini at wavecable.com> 
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Do you know how to use the quick settings in JAWS? Copied from the 
>>>>>>JAWS
>>>>>>13
>>>>>>help:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Virtual Ribbon Menu
>>>>>>The Ribbon is a new style of menu available in many new applications
>>>>>>being
>>>>>>released today. Ribbons first appeared in Office 2007 programs, but 
>>>>>>are
>>>>>>now
>>>>>>becoming more common in other applications tailored for the Windows 7
>>>>>>operating system. Ribbons create an accessibility challenge due to
>>>>>>inconsistent navigation between various groups and items. For example,
>>>>>>when
>>>>>>you enter the Lower Ribbon and press the ARROW keys to move between
>>>>>> items
>>>>>>in
>>>>>>a group, you can skip items and unexpectedly move into another group.
>>>>>>Pressing TAB gives no indication that you have left one group and
>>>>>> entered
>>>>>>another. Using first letter navigation to find items can be difficult
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>frustrating. Finally, because of a group's layout, you do not know if
>>>>>> you
>>>>>>should navigate up, down, left, or right to select an item.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The new Virtual Ribbon Menu provides predictable navigation, lets you
>>>>>> see
>>>>>>everything in the Ribbon, and offers consistency when navigating with
>>>>>>ARROW
>>>>>>keys. For example, the ARROW and TAB keys move focus from the Upper
>>>>>>Ribbon
>>>>>>tabs to the Lower Ribbon groups. Once in a group, the ARROW, TAB, and
>>>>>>SHIFT+TAB keys move through all items in a group, move from one group 
>>>>>>to
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>next, and wrap to the beginning of the Ribbon. For submenus, SPACEBAR
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>ENTER expand menus, and ESCAPE collapses menus. The Virtual Ribbon 
>>>>>>Menu
>>>>>>is
>>>>>>off by default and can be switched on or off from within Settings 
>>>>>>Center
>>>>>>or
>>>>>>the JAWS Startup Wizard. When it is on, the Ribbon is navigated using 
>>>>>>a
>>>>>>traditional menu and submenu format familiar to most JAWS users.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 3:30 PM
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] microsoft product accessibility
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  jaws 13
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home
>>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 6:23 PM
>>>>>>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] microsoft product accessibility
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>What version of JAWS are you using?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 3:08 PM
>>>>>>>Subject: [nabs-l] microsoft product accessibility
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Hi all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Seems like the office suite is less user friendly with the new
>>>>>>>> ribbons.
>>>>>>>>Occasionally I find a button unlabeled.
>>>>>>>>Anyway, is access and Publisher accessible at all? I'd like to 
>>>>>>>>create
>>>>>>>>simple charts with publisher and maybe brochures if I volunteer for 
>>>>>>>>pr
>>>>>>>>somewhere.
>>>>>>>>Is excell still accessible?
>>>>>>>>I'll need the access database for work probably.
>>>
>>>
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>>
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