[nabs-l] Sex Education Curriculum

[Joshua Lester]

Gabe, sorry for the mixup.
Still, when I mentioned them, I was proving the point you made earlier.
This stuff comes naturally!
We don't need explissit details.
Blessings, Joshua

On 7/12/12, Gabe Cazares <gcazares10 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Joshua, Brandon, and my fellow NABS friends:
> I would like to start off by encouraging you highly opinionated folks to
> please take time to fill out the survey. I believe that we are facing a
> couple of different perspectives, which necessarily aren't bad, however I
> would like to speak to a few points.
> Brandon: I agree with most of your views. I too am of the opinion that a
> course on Sex Education is not a bad idea. In fact, if you take time to
> examine what the initial Email says you will see that they are not trying
> to
> create a separate curriculum for blind people. The direct quote is
> "Currently no curriculum exists for students with low vision and blindness
> that reflect current education standards." Meaning that standards are
> already set for the education of other students, and they are only
> attempting to develop a curriculum that matches the current standards for
> the education of blind students. However, I disagree with your portrayal of
> blind people. Blind people are not as ignorant and naïve as I feel you
> present us to be. I for one, was never taught by a textbook or a course on
> how to kiss, how to behave myself, how to identify flirting, and for that
> matter sexually suggestive behavior. Don't forget that we are all people
> who
> happen to be blind, minus the blindness characteristic we're normal
> functioning human beings. Such behaviors come naturally, and with exposure
> to social environments and activities can be further developed and
> perfected
> upon. Also, I believe that you're examples have served their purpose, and
> that you are now walking on the fine line of almost being vulgar. Please
> keep in mind that we have students of all ages and professionals related to
> blindness and other issues relating to blindness subscribed to this list,
> and while the title of the thread discloses the subject matter very
> clearly,
> there really is no reason why to expound upon the points you have been
> making with such graphic examples. Your first few examples beautifully
> conveyed your message, now they're just becoming distasteful. Please keep
> that in mind when writing.
> Joshua: I can appreciate your point of view, because while I don't agree
> with it, I am of the opinion that everyone has the right to speak their
> piece. But please keep in mind that the leaders of the Federation are
> important individuals with integrity, and I'm not sure that using them as
> examples on a controversial topic like this one is such a good idea.
> Especially when you have stated incorrect facts, Dr. and Mrs. Maurer only
> have two children.
>
> Everyone has opinions on when to teach people about sex education, by whom
> it should be done, and at what age it's appropriate to do so. That is fine,
> but that is not what David's forwarded Email was all about. It was just a
> simple announcement asking us to participate in academic research for the
> matter being discussed on this thread, so again, I encourage everyone that
> has an opinion on the issue to take your comments off of the list, and
> transpose them to the survey.
>
> Best,
>
> ...Gabe
>
>
> Gabriel M. Cazares, 1st Vice President
> Texas Association of Blind Students - TABS (A Division of the National
> Federation of the Blind of Texas)
> www.nfbtx.org/tabs
> Phone: 713-581-0619
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Joshua Lester
> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 7:13 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Sex Education Curriculum
>
> Good grief!
> I just have one question for you, since you're for this new curriculum.
> How do you think Dr Maurer, and his wife learned?
> They didn't have sex-education, in the 1950's, but they have 5 kids!
> That whole story destroys the argument!
> Blessings, Joshua
>
> On 7/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Is talking enough though? I know I would benefit from hearing someone
>> talk about their romantic and sexual experiences, but what about
>> actually seeing
>>
>> a naked woman or man? It's kind of nasty to have your first glimpse of
>> a man's peaness right before he's ready to stick it in you... Same
>> with a guy,
>>
>> it's kind of nasty to see a vagina for the first time before you're
>> supposed
>>
>> to stick your peaness into it...
>> We were told lots about date rape and whatnot in school. I had a blind
>> girlfriend who knew nothing about the hymen and she had no idea that
>> having
>>
>> sex for a virgin woman could be painful and bloody. What if her first
>> sexual
>>
>> encounter was a guy who didn't know about the hymen either? Either
>> he'd get
>>
>> scared and turned off because of all the blood, or she screams and
>> he's like
>>
>> a quarter in and she says that it hurts to go any farther.
>> (New advertisement for birth control!) Thanks,
>>
>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Desiree Oudinot
>> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 4:46 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Sex Education Curriculum
>>
>> Ok, now I can understand where you're coming from. But the kind of
>> thing you speak of where blind people just grab on someone's boobs
>> sounds like perhaps they have another disability as well. That's a
>> whole other can of worms. But I still stand by what I said that a
>> separate curriculum doesn't need to be made just for the blind. What I
>> do believe, however, is that perhaps in summer workshops about job
>> searching and resume building and things like that, these topics
>> should be discussed. Social norms and sexual expression are important
>> topics, and maybe if everyone in the room was blind, it would make it
>> more beneficial. Maybe the class could even be taught by a blind
>> psychologist or social worker, if one is available, for some
>> first-hand experience and knowledge.
>>
>> On 7/12/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>> Again, we're assuming that a blind person knows what a kiss is in the
>>> first
>>>
>>> place, we're assuming that they know that you're supposed to touch
>>> the other
>>>
>>> person when they kiss and we're also asuming that they know that
>>> kissing can
>>>
>>> be more than a brush of the lips.
>>> I didn't realize the last 2 till I started reading books. The first
>>> time I read a graphical description of a French kiss I about through
>>> down my PDA
>>>
>>> I
>>>
>>> was like, That's gross!!!
>>> I wasn't able to feel the passion and emotion put into the kiss and
>>> how was
>>>
>>> I supposed to know that the tongue played a role in much of kissing?
>>> It reminds me of another book I read where a robot was going through
>>> a love
>>>
>>> scene and he was doing what seemed to please the woman till the woman
>>> stuck
>>>
>>> her tongue in his ear. He jumped up and started screaming because
>>> that was just so unexpected.
>>> Blind kids who don't read are at a total disadvantage when it comes
>>> to kissing for the first time, because they don't really know what
> entails.
>>> Of
>>>
>>> course they can learn through experience, but I know for me
>>> personally, learning through experience has really turned me off of
>>> kissing and romantic
>>>
>>> encounters altogether. I had to get used to the fact that, yes, this
>>> is what
>>>
>>> people do and yes, that's a way to show affection.
>>> On another note, when I first felt what a naked woman looked like, I
>>> thought
>>>
>>> it was pretty gross as well! Who knew they were that harry? I thought
>>> women
>>>
>>> didn't grow hair on their body? It's only been through time that I've
>>> come to realize the beauty in mail and female bodies and it has been
>>> my active exploration of romance that I've found the beauty in many
>>> of the nasty things that are a part of romance.
>>> It's an uncomfortable subject that most people aren't really willing
>>> to talk
>>>
>>> about, let alone teach and I think much of us blind folks are really
>>> delayed
>>>
>>> when it comes to these romantic encounters. (Making out for the first
>>> time at 22? I'm 20 and still haven't ever had a good kiss, not seeing
>>> a naked woman till I was 17, not knowing where the umbilical chord is
>>> located?
>>> I've
>>>
>>> never looked at porn and goodness knows I've tried, not knowing that
>>> breasts
>>>
>>> are private on a woman...)
>>> Yes I talked to a TVI who had to tell her student to stop feeling
>>> women's boobs, because no one would stop him. "He's blind and he
>>> can't see me, plus
>>>
>>> it feels good, so I'll playfully bat him away..."
>>> Ladies does that sound very attractive, having a blind guy touch your
>>> breasts in greeting? And if you got into a relationship he wouldn't
>>> just touch yours, he'd touch everyone's?
>>> Parents often have a hard time with teaching their blind kids how to
>>> play,
>>>
>>> I
>>>
>>> don't think there's going to be much teaching about love or sex in
>>> that household.
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Desiree Oudinot
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 3:32 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Sex Education Curriculum
>>>
>>> Hi Brandon,
>>> Again, you're making a lot of valid points, but I have to question
>>> one statement you made concerning seeing couples making out and all
>>> that.
>>> Sighted people don't just watch what's being done and then
>>> automatically do it right 100% of the time, either. In fact, with sex
>>> there is no right or wrong, just what turns each individual on.
>>> Learning what that is in each new relationship is like driving a new
>>> car. You may know the rules of the road, but depending on the size of
>>> the car, the speed you're going, how much traffic is on the road, and
>>> other factors, you're going to have to navigate with more or less
>>> caution each time. Only by mastering each route as you become more
>>> comfortable with it can you fall into a pattern and stick with it.
>>> But if you're used to driving on quiet country roads, and then all of
>>> a sudden you move to New York City, you have to completely change
>>> your approach. Do you see where my analogy is heading? It's not sight
>>> or lack thereof that determines how much pleasure one can receive
>>> intimately. It's the individuals in question, their level of
>>> attraction, and how well they can communicate with each other to say
>>> what feels good and what doesn't. Because let's face it, there's a
>>> lot of feeling. If we spent all our time studying and copying others,
>>> we would all enjoy the same things done the exact same way. And, as I
>>> was starting to say in the beginning of my message, practice makes
>>> perfect. No one knows for sure what works and what doesn't the first
>>> few times, or the first few times in each successive relationship.
>>> Also, I forgot to address something you said in your first message
>>> concerning buying condoms. Honestly, sighted people have anonnymity
>>> when they do this. Whether a blind person knows what kind they want
>>> or not, they have to face the embarrassment of going up to the
>>> counter, asking for assistance, and then having to tell the clerk
>>> what they want. Unfortunately, there's just no way around that, so
>>> either way we lose on that scale. Maybe ordering them online could be
>>> an option if people don't want to take that route. Frankly, when I
>>> was a teenager, I wouldn't have felt comfortable with that either.
>>>
>>> On 7/12/12, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> Joshua,
>>>> Nope; we are at a disadvantage in learning about sex. I think this
>>>> survey is a good idea.
>>>> Without any vision, perhaps you don't realize how visual stuff is
>>>> and what you are missing. Sex is portrayed in videos and pictures.
>>>> Sighted kids learn
>>>>
>>>> from tv, movies, books and magazines. We do not see those pictures.
>>>> I remember this  sex stuff as part of health class. We did not
>>>> discuss anything controversial. We just learned about the body parts
>>>> and functions;
>>>>
>>>> however, it was  kind of confusing without the visual pictures.
>>>> Come on, even if you wait til marriage, do you really want your wife
>>>> teaching you basic stuff about this activity?
>>>> Also, books do not mean much without a reference explaining the act.
>>>> I know
>>>>
>>>> from experience. When a book says a certain term, I had no clue what
>>>> it meant without looking it up! I won't get into details other than
>>>> to say I know less about sex than my peers my age.
>>>>
>>>> Ashley
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Joshua Lester
>>>> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 12:10 PM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Sex Education Curriculum
>>>>
>>>> Hi, Amber!
>>>> You're right!
>>>> BTW, I like the lyrics in your signature!
>>>> That's one of my favorite songs!
>>>> Welcome to the list!
>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>
>>>> On 7/12/12, Herrin, Amber R. <herrinar at muohio.edu> wrote:
>>>>> Dear Joshua,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have to agree with you here!  For me, the idea of knowing about
>>>>> sex, before I'm sharing it with my husband, is kind
>>>>> of...unnecessary, I guess?
>>>>> Maybe the wrong answer, and I understand that not everyone believes
>>>>> you should wait until marriage as I do, but I think that being
>>>>> blind doesn't prevent us from finding out about it the same way
>>>>> sighted people do-experiment (isn't that what most people do
>>>>> anyway?) or read books written on the topic (how confusing can text
>>>>> be?)
>>>>>
>>>>> Amber R. Herrin
>>>>> Assistive Technology Trainer in Training: 2012
>>>>> Mobile: (513) 593-5855
>>>>> E-mail: herrinar at muohio.edu
>>>>> "It doesn't matter what you've heard Impossible is not a word It's
>>>>> just a reason For someone not to try
>>>>>
>>>>> Everybody's scared to death
>>>>> When they decide to take that step
>>>>> Out on the water
>>>>> It'll be alright
>>>>>
>>>>> Life is so much more
>>>>> Than what your eyes are seeing
>>>>> You will find your way
>>>>> If you keep believing"
>>>>> -Kutless "What Faith Can Do"
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>>>> On Behalf Of Joshua Lester
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 9:35 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Sex Education Curriculum
>>>>>
>>>>> I personally did fine, in those courses, in school, without the new
>>>>> proposed curriculum, that they're wanting.
>>>>> I don't see the need for one, because who really wants to know,
>>>>> what's being shown, in those slides?
>>>>> Good grief!
>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/11/12, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I have been asked to circulate the following:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Dear NFB Member,
>>>>>>>The National Federation of the Blind has been gracious enough to
>>>>>>>help us with a current project.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>We are currently seeking your opinion in a survey that will help
>>>>>>>us write a curriculum for students with low vision and blindness
>>>>>>>in the area of sex education.  Currently no curriculum exists for
>>>>>>>students with low vision and blindness that reflect current
>>>>>>>education standards.  Young people, educators, and professionals
>>>>>>>have all indicated that there is a desperate need for such a
> curriculum.
>>>>>>>We want your voice to impact our work!
>>>>>>>Please take the time to fill out the survey at the link found below:
>>>>>>><https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/sexeducationsurvey>https://www.sur
>>>>>>>veym
>>>>>>>onkey.com/s/sexeducationsurvey
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>><https://maverick.hec.ohio-state.edu/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=htt
>>>>>>>ps:/ /www.surveymonkey.com/s/sexeducationsurvey>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Thank you for your time and consideration of this project!
>>>>>>>Tiffany Wild, Mollie Blackburn, Stacy Kelly, and Caitlin Ryan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Thank you,
>>>>>>>Mika Baugh
>>>>>>>National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>>200 East Wells Street
>>>>>>>      at Jernigan Place
>>>>>>>Baltimore, MD 21230
>>>>>>>P: (410) 659 9314 ext. 2371
>>>>>>>E: <mailto:mbaugh at nfb.org>mbaugh at nfb.org
>>>>>>>W: <http://www.nfb.org>www.nfb.org
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
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