[nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott

Sun Jun 10 04:33:47 UTC 2012

Wow!
Arielle, we must share the same major!
I'm majoring in Behavioral Health.
What you've said, in this E-mail, is just what I'm probably going to
study, in my Behavioral Health Issues class, this Fall!
I agree with you!
Blessings, Joshua

On 6/9/12, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Brandon,
> These are all good points. I like your statement about blind people
> who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I have
> met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description.
> The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what a
> person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective tests
> like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for
> environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities or
> knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and teachers, or
> what skills they are or are not taught. There is research showing that
> when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way, they
> tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a "self-fulfilling
> prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up "Pygmalian
> effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are
> smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids differently
> without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up
> performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too often
> happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about how
> disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in ways
> that make those assumptions come true.
> I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more
> productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was intrinsically
> interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were actually
> good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and mental
> abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task
> enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply too
> boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities have
> their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I have
> figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop job, I
> would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at minimum
> wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my hands or
> using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just
> wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking and
> doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills
> instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at.
> Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is true
> that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the
> unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons for
> unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that employers
> want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many fields,
> the entry-level position that people get at first to gain experience
> isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with
> programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your foot in
> the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For example,
> before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching, which
> means you are working under someone else who might not use accessible
> materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without
> experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory
> doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within an
> accessible field, individual employers might use materials that aren't
> accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very
> accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or scripts
> that aren't accessible, this will limit job options.
> Arielle
>
> On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hello,
>> It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like being mentally
>> disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can not do. We
>> also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like mentally
>> disabled
>> people really are mentally  disabled.
>> *That's a mouthful!*
>> I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under employed
>> and
>> jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of them. But I'm
>> not a professional and I can only say from personal experience  that many
>> mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and often it's
>> because they are babied and misunderstood  that they are pressured into
>> doing jobs they aren’t good at.
>>
>> I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will in the
>> first
>> place though when it's not that hard learning programming and it's pretty
>> easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind person. If
>> your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just take a
>> class at their community college and change their job. I believe SSI is
>> for
>> college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back up when
>> work
>> isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure jobs if I
>> go
>> into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral  issues, I'm not
>> sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill.
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Arielle Silverman
>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>>
>> Hi all,
>> I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating items
>> like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A customer
>> boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably hurt
>> them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very
>> persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches nationally, we
>> make it very clear that what we want is a change to national policy.
>> Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll call her
>> S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman with
>> Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call her C).
>> Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know both S
>> and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation. Apparently C
>> is employed by a program for people with intellectual disabilities
>> similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S. told
>> me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely menial
>> job although I don't remember what that job was exactly. However, I
>> don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived
>> rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries. The
>> program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even had
>> independent access to the money she earned at her job.
>> I don't think I can really judge whether people with disabilities like
>> C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending their
>> own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge how
>> independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like C.
>> would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and
>> higher expectations should come with higher wages and more freedom.
>> I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should be
>> paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that blindness
>> by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently. However, I
>> do wonder if minimum wage is necessary for those who don't have living
>> expenses or who don't manage their own finances because they are
>> living in custodial care situations. I'm sure there are people in
>> these custodial arrangements who shouldn't be there, but that almost
>> sounds like a separate issue. These people aren't in custodial care
>> because they are earning low wages, but because their parents or
>> others acting on their behalf have decided they don't have the
>> intellect or the maturity to make adult decisions. Again, this should
>> never be said about people who are just blind without other
>> disabilities. As far as intellectual disabilities go, in some cases
>> this judgment might be right; in other cases it might be wrong. But if
>> someone is clearly not able to manage adult expenses, should they be
>> paid adult wages? It's tricky.
>> I can also understand the argument that if noncompetitive employment
>> programs for the disabled raise wages, they can't hire as many
>> workers. This ultimately means that instead of a bunch of disabled
>> workers earning crappy wages, some will earn a decent wage and others
>> will earn nothing. Of course, we hope that the reduction in
>> noncompetitive jobs might bring more disabled workers into the
>> competitive job market. A mandatory minimum wage would also force
>> companies with high salaries at the top to redistribute their payscale
>> more fairly.
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you say comes true. However, there's a
>>> lot of change we need to make in order for this to happen. Even if we
>>> overturn the subminimum wage provision, and I hope and pray that we do,
>>> we
>>> can't possibly tell employers that they have to hire people with
>>> disabilities. So, we need to change the beliefs and the attidudes of
>>> society, including employers, about the competence of blind people. I
>>> know,
>>> it's a big job, but I think we've made a lot of progress so far.
>>>
>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Humberto Avila
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM
>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>>>
>>> Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the boycott to
>>> this
>>> company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to put
>>> pressure
>>> on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well as
>>> organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end up
>>> spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages and they
>>> could even see that people with disabilities and including blind people
>>> are
>>> capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential employers
>>> see this change happening, those employers will have a light bulb lit up,
>>> and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then will hire
>>> them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from my
>>> personal
>>> opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Sophie Trist
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>>>
>>> Justin,
>>>
>>> I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted
>>> universally,
>>> it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled workers fair
>>> wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage policy and gave
>>> their
>>> workers fair wages, other corporations might follow their lead.
>>>
>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Justin Salisbury <PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu
>>> To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012
>>> 23:19:15 +0000
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>>>
>>> One more note: I think that local business decision-makers within
>>> Goodwill
>>> Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change simply by the
>>> fact
>>> that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries adopted a universal
>>> fair
>>> wage policy (if they did), so that would help with the education, too.
>>>
>>> Justin M. Salisbury
>>> Class of 2012
>>> B.A. in Mathematics
>>> East Carolina University
>>> president at alumni.ecu.edu
>>>
>>> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens
>>> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.?
>>> 뾏ARGARET MEAD
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: Justin Salisbury
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM
>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: Goodwill Boycott
>>>
>>> Arielle, Gabe, and all:
>>>
>>> I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage policies
>>> and
>>> rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a benefit to
>>> boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill Industries
>>> would create a centralized
>>> (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers fair wages?
>>>
>>> I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill Industries to
>>> adopt
>>> a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the approach
>>> that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the decisions in
>>> individual locations.  I do understand the point of leading local
>>> business
>>> leaders to undergo philosophical change and choose to pay their workers
>>> fair wages, but which item is the top priority: education of individuals
>>> or
>>>
>>> achievement of fair wages?   That's not a rhetorical question; I
>>> want to hear opinions on it.
>>>
>>> Justin
>>>
>>> Justin M. Salisbury
>>> Class of 2012
>>> B.A. in Mathematics
>>> East Carolina University
>>> president at alumni.ecu.edu
>>>
>>> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens
>>> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever has.?
>>> 뾏ARGARET MEAD
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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