[nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott

[Joshua Lester]

Beth, the blind cooks list can provide you with the info you need, to
cook Southern food.
Where is your new boyfriend from?
Thanks, Joshua

On 6/10/12, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
> First off, my boyfriend can't go to an independent living center
> out of state.  It took that to get me to learn daily living
> skills.  I live in my own, but I hate to live for two people.
> You've got great points, Brandon.  My boyfriend will have to do
> daily living trainning, maybe I can find a daily living skills
> teacher in his state that can help.  I tried learning from a
> daily living skills teacher, but the teachers I've worked with
> never really told my parents they had to be patient.  HE's lucky
> his girlfriend is blind and can cook just as good as anyone.
> Btw, I made a casserole one day, and it's great that I did.  If I
> have to move out with my boyffriend, I'll have to learn and teach
> myself how to make deviled eggs and southern fried chicken, some
> of his favorites.  But I'll be that patient with him and help him
> get on his feet.  I'll probably have to learn something, but I
> think living in the bay area won't be possible.  I have to live
> where he is so that his heart doesn't get damaged or whuaftever.
> I think we're better than the people at Goodwill, and .. oh
> yeah, hopefully, we get good furniture from a furniture resale
> store unlike Goodwill.
> Beth
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 08:53:30 -0700
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>
> Hello Beth,
> let me first say that judging by your emails you definitely have
> enough
> reasoning and writing ability to get what ever degree you wish.
> If you've
> read literature on human trafficking you have seen the worst.
> They shelter
> you in schools because they don't want to get sued. That doctor
> definitely
> has no idea what he's talking about. If I were you, I'd go to
> school and get
> that counseling degree, then invite that doctor to my graduation!
> If money
> is an issue, DOR and the state often have programs that can fully
> cover the
> cost of school, minus housing and food.
> Don't worry, you sound lots better informed than many people that
> I know
> about personal finance. I was looking at the Hadley Business
> section and I
> was really wondering why they didn't have personal finance and
> investing. I
> don't know anyone other than brokers who have the education to
> really make
> something of their money. Sadly though, personal finance is one
> of those
> things that are expected one learns on their own. Like speaking
> and
> socializing, it should just be a given that everyone knows about
> how to find
> banks with high interest rates and low fees, everyone knows how
> to budget
> effectively, everyone knows how to find the best deals on food
> and clothing,
> and no one needs any help on running a family in school.
> My communication teacher in school said that 99% of all the
> students that
> come to her class have never had a communication class in their
> life, yet
> 100% of her students have had to communicate.
> We are both a little baffled at this logic, but that's how life
> is I
> guess...?
> Personally I've found that those who have the most power over
> people in this
> world are those with money and those with exceptional
> communication skills.
> I would recommend everyone move to the Bay area here in CA and go
> to
> Foothill College. The teachers there are exceptional and the
> disability
> center is the best in the west. They also give oober scholarships
> to those
> students who come off as serious students *Points at his 9 grand
> in
> scholarships*.
> Also, you don't need DOR to pay for any part of school, as one
> can get
> renewable scholarships at a community college to pay for every
> part of
> school, except for $47 by just being on SSI.
> Beth, Here in the bay area we have a giant human trafficking
> problem as we
> are one of the major connection points for overseas travel. It's
> on the
> radio lots how they've caught slavers here and there, but besides
> that, the
> Bay Area is so much for women's studies, I've not seen any
> general college
> that doesn't offer a degree in women's studies.
> If I were anyone, I would totally move here to SF or go to NY,
> because not
> only is the blindness support so great, but public transportation
> is the
> best in the nation for both those places.
> But enough on me pushing SF...!
> Beth, your boyfriend sounds like he could do with a liberal dose
> of Daily
> living skills. Here where I live, there is a center called the
> "Vista
> Center" and DOR contracts out teachers to help you become
> independent. I
> love those teachers, because with their help, I was able to move
> out on my
> own when I was 18.
> I believe the Light House also has programs like this, and Justin
> was saying
> something about attending a program that also teaches living
> skills. But my
> teacher says she encounters two types of people. There are those
> who go
> above and beyond what they were asked and actually do what they
> were taught
> on their own, then there are those who do the minimum possible.
> They expect
> everything to be spoon fed to them. The first group are the ones
> who
> generally make it in the world as successful individuals. Beth,
> if I were
> you, I'd have a down to earth talk with your Boyfriend, letting
> him know
> that as it stands people don't believe in his ability to take
> care of
> himself. He may think that he could take care of himself, but you
> can let
> him know that he will have to prove it first. If he agrees, than
> it's time
> to look for a daily living skills teacher. If not, he may want to
> be sent to
> one of the independent living facilities, so he can see first
> hand why he
> must learn living skills in order to be free.
> I don't believe marriage should be really talked about until
> after your
> Boyfriend proves his stuff. Because Beth, you've got your life to
> live and
> you should not be forced to live for two people which you would
> be doing if
> you married and moved out with your boyfriend as things are now.
>
> I know what you mean about not going to prom. I never went to
> prom with a
> girl when I was in High school. I actually didn't get a
> girlfriend till my
> last year of High School and I broke up with her 5 months later.
> I didn't
> have another till a little over a year after that. It was with
> that second
> girlfriend that I went to prom. Frankly, school dances are the
> worst things
> since the invention of eyes.
> If you like loud music beating so loud that you can't hear
> yourself think,
> let alone hear your date talking, and if you like being squeezed
> together on
> all sides by grinding individuals, and if you're being shown how
> to dance by
> your partner, the only word I can label this, is hell.
> The romantic things before and after the dance are great, but the
> dance
> itself is terrible. So let me assure you that except for the
> romantic part,
> you did not miss much at the prom. They didn't even play the Blue
> Danube at
> the prom I went to! I thought that was required in order to have
> a dance to
> call themselves a dance?
> anyways, in my opinion the education is much more important when
> you're
> going through school than the social aspects. In college though,
> guys become
> much smarter and women become way more emotionally sound, just
> because they
> have lived and learned much more through their life.
> Most of the girls I've thought about dating have not been mature
> enough in
> some aspect of their life. My last girlfriend was too immature
> when it came
> to being focused and I learned the hard way that you should never
> expect
> people to change. So part of my problem about having a small
> social life is
> that even now, I find that the women I'm attracted to are still
> much to
> immature in some way for any kind of relationship to work.
> But for high school, I was not socially mature and even now I'm
> not socially
> mature enough to really fit in the sighted world. This is the
> biggest
> problem I've found, blind people are not able to pass themselves
> off as good
> relationship material in the sighted world. If the world was only
> blind this
> would be different, but because we live in a sight run culture,
> being able
> to be socially mature to those who are sighted is crucial if one
> wants to
> make it in anything other than strictly working in something like
> the NFB or
> Goodwill.
> We have to work extra hard at understanding what sighted people
> think and
> how sighted people do things in order to live as the sighted
> people. Once
> we're able to pass ourselves off enough so no one believes we're
> blind, we
> should then and only then, begin to emphasize the fact that we
> are blind.
> Because if we establish to people that we're blind first, they
> will look no
> farther than our disability. In sighted human evolution, being
> disabled is
> repulsive and we've got to fight against nature in order to do
> anything in
> the sighted world. Once one is able to show that they are a
> sighted person
> first, then they can show they are blind and at that point, one
> is able to
> make blindness something to be desired and interesting, not
> repulsive and
> weird.
> Thank you,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Beth
> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 1:01 AM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>
> Great points, Brandon.  As someone who is both blind and mentally
> ill, I understand how it feels to be considered weird.  I've been
> called a creep, told by some girl to my boyfriend's face that he
> could do better due to my disorder, and then threatened with all
> kinds of emotional attack and abuse.  Due to blindness, I was
> told by the docs I'd be a vegetable.  Huh?  My dad says I'm a
> genius.  I don't know, but my last IQ check said I was a 133,
> superior without all the visual battery of tests.  But then
> again, IQ isn't everything.  I live in Denver, alone, with no
> roommate to pander to my every need.  I probably should say that
> with the right support and good friends around me, I could
> thrive.  I could become a "normal" woman, work a "normal" job,
> and get "normal" wages.  I could take care of children, my own
> children, and raise them to be good people, productive citizens
> of the United States of America, and I'd look forward to good
> days and bad days along the way.  My old cane teacher is a
> fountain of wisdom when it comes to life's miseries, and the
> rapids of life don't get any higher than what they are.  I could
> get deeper and say that God doesn't put us in a river with rapids
> that could not be handled by the rider.  One of the biggest
> "whitewater rapids" so to speak is the employment and wages
> thing.  Brandon and Arielle, you guys make a good point in that
> blind people are trained to act like mentally disabled people.
> My boyfriend doesn't know money.  I wonder if I can possibly
> teach him the basics of money management and budgeting.  I
> struggle with it myself because SSI is too little to live off of,
> and I was given a plane ticket, but not the money for baggage
> fees and cab fare to get to and from the airport.  So I'm stuck
> paying for that.  My boyfriend also doesn't know how to keep
> track of his own wages, and if he becomes a big-time producer for
> all sorts of rappers who would run to him, I don't know how he's
> going to run the household and help me pay my bills too.  What if
> I'm incapacitated for real this time?  I mean, like, Terry
> Shiavo?  How's Jason, who I may designate as a healthcare
> surrogate, going to make that decision?  My hope is that he won't
> have to do that, but if that happens, I need someone that I feel
> can be trusted to make the decisions about my bills and stuff.  I
> was asked by my boyfriend's mom of all people to help her with
> him a bit.  Just to think of Jason in the situation he's in just
> makes me so sick.  I want him to manage his own wages, cook me a
> meal if I get sick, and fry me some chicken or grill a burger on
> Memorial Day.  He has the potential to do those things, and the
> weird part is that his parents are open to us having a
> relationship.  Most disabled people's parents, including but not
> limited to my own, are not as open about relations with poorer
> people.  Both Jason and I are poor, but I think we can live
> together successfully with all the right supports, and if we
> can't find jobs, so what?  We need family support to get by.  But
> I really do dream of having my own private house, being able to
> manage my bills, being able to buy foods that are nutritious to
> my children and so on, and feeding the baby and having Jason
> there to have breakfast with in the mornings, and not his old
> mother.  Not to say she's bad, but it's a dream I want to have.
> My mother should not have to manage my money.  Yes, I'm not so
> good at money management, but I've learned a few lessons like how
> to go back and look at your payment history every time if you get
> suspicious about a charge.  Like if the bills are on autopay, you
> have to look back and see if the weird corporate robbers, if I
> may use such a cold term, are stealing your money.  I felt
> Comcast was robbing me of my precious money, and especially this
> month
> because of a trip, and next month because of a move I have to do,
> I can't afford a $70 internet bill.  That's just too much unless
> you're really living in low income housing.  I know a lot about
> disabled or low income housing.  Boy, my boyfriend has a lot to
> learn, and he'll learn lots while I'm with him.  Lots of times,
> blind people are sheltered by their parents, and of course, the
> parents I had were good parents, no doubt, but they had their
> flaws.  Jason is lucky in some ways, but his parents said the
> same stuff that all sighted people say, "He has it made.  We wait
> on him hand and foot ..."  And so on.  This creates a problem.
> Blind people need to not be waited on hand and foot.  We can't
> necessarily be pandered to our every need like little Veruca Salt
> in charlie and the Chocolate Factory if I may reference a spoiled
> literary figure.  We can't be pandered or revered as Helen Keller
> was by her family in her early years.  Unlike Jason, Helen was
> deaf and in me and Jason's time, jobs are ample, and skills are
> ample thanks to technology.  With Helen Keller's time, there were
> no jobs open, and marriage and motherhood were closed to Helen.
> I as a blind woman am thankful that marriage is open to me--hence
> the boyfriend I currently have--and relationships period.  Jobs
> and technology have risen while I was growing up.  It only seems
> like yesterday that I would not be sending this superbly long
> email.  Thanks to emails and Facebook and Twitter, I feel much
> more connected to my friends and family, and especially to my
> dear cousin Sarah, but yet she never calls me.  Ha ha.  But
> thanks to cell phones, I can go anywhere and give everyone a text
> message.  Imagine poor blind Beth texting!  It only seems like
> yesterday that my parents didn't think I needed an accessible
> phone, but when I fought to get an accessible phone, and my
> ex-boyfriend taught me how to write letters on the phone, which
> is a skill I still fail at sometimes (lol), I have texted my
> friends and I can receive texts from people.  I would hate to
> change my address, but I do that.  I will be in Denver for a good
> while so I can do my college and keep the ducks in a row as I
> would hear my mother say.  When I get my ducks in a row, I plan
> to move on to bigger and better things, and I want to get a job
> helping human trafficking victims.  Denver has a strong victim
> advocate program, but that's only the Muslim Family Services that
> may have that.  I'd heard that Atlanta has a big problem with
> human trafficking.  Well, so do some areas of Florida, but if
> there's slavery and trafficking, I'll be there to stop it.  I'd
> like to give former slaves and prostitutes a chance at life, but
> where will I go without a college degree in women's studies and a
> good background in such matters?  I was never trafficked, but I
> have read countless literature, and have seen it firsthand or
> through others, what sorts of cruelty exist in the world.
> To keep the message on topic, I want to say that such a job
> helping human trafficking victims shouldn't require a social work
> degree, which the doc says I'm too messed up to do.  I want to
> advise all of us to please take suspicious statements like,
> "She's pretending to be a certain ethnic group" or "She's not fit
> to do something because of mental deficiencies."  What sort of
> nonsensical statements these are!  DVR in Colorado doesn't seem
> to get it.  They tell me I'm too messed up for college but they
> don't seem to understand that the importance of college is more
> to me than anybody.  My brothers are taking college classes, and
> they will graduate, marry, and have families as expected.  But
> what will I do?  My parents will dictate who I will marry due to
> gender and blindness, they will tell me what talents I have
> because I'm so "malleable", as some people think blind people
> are, and then my teachers, doctors, psychologists, social
> workers, and case managers will either take my babies or let me
> keep them with sighted supervision, and so on.  But going through
> school is not easy.  Brandon, you said school is great, but you
> don't realize that as a blind person in a million living in a
> small town, nobody cared to dance with me at homecoming or prom.
> That's the price I paid for being blind.  Nobody cared to offer
> me flowers on a date.  I didn't have the normal teenager things
> that every teenage girl dreams about.  If I have a daughter, I
> want to dress her up for prom and her wedding day with such pride
> a mother would share with her spouse and daughter alike.  My
> mother never got that opportunity with me.  She would help me
> into my chorus dresses, but those were mere obligations to the
> school.  My mom believed that prom was for dates only, and summer
> jobs?  Out of the question.  I can't get a good experience if I
> am not allowed to work.  Titusville is a small town in Florida,
> and I and another man were the only blind people in it.  I being
> the only and youngest blind woman in the town couldn't be offered
> a job.  The only jobs offered were at the hospital, where medical
> experience was required, and the Space Center, where engineering
> degrees were preferred.  My dad can attest to the people he's
> interviewed for jobs, and unfortunately, there's not enough blind
> computer engineers, except those in the underground geek industry
> as I like to call it, to go around.  We also need to learn to
> communicate with others who are sighted, speak their language so
> to speak.
> Ok, my rant is over.
> Beth
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 23:57:32 -0700
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>
> Hello,
> I'm sure many people who have talked to me before know what I'm
> going to
> say...
> It's the educational system that many of these problems come down
> to. We
> have teachers coming out of school who are not inspired to create
> a new
> style of teaching. We have teachers who are never taught about
> disabled
> students. We have blind students who are never taught how to ask
> for
> accommodations. We have parents who think being blind is bad!
> Honestly, if I could have redone my education as a sighted
> person, I would
> not have done it. Being blind is such an advantage in the United
> States when
> going through school. You get extra time on everything, you get
> leniency on
> all your assignments if you can't finish them on time, you get
> free
> schooling, you get paid to go through school by SSI, you have so
> many
> scholarships you can apply for, you can use the law to fight for
> accessibility with little retribution, you become great friends
> with your
> teachers just because you get to talk to them all the time, you
> are by
> nature a very active participant in your class, you are able to
> read your
> books 1000 times faster than all of the other students combined,
> you're able
> to get tutoring for free, you don't have to feel ashamed for
> taking
> advantage of any of the above benefits because you're disabled
> and that's
> what you're expected to do!
> Also, the expectation of your teachers is rather low and when you
> get 100%
> on all their hardest tests they get all embarrassed, people think
> it's
> amazing that you're getting strait As when it's nothing,
> (Stereotypically)
> blind people are very unsocial so they have lots of extra time to
> do school
> work, you're able to actually edit your teacher's handouts and
> instructions
> because Jaws doesn't miss skipped letters, if you have a problem
> with your
> online test you can blame it on your screen reader crashing the
> web browser,
> state colleges gobble you up if you have ever taken an honors
> class at a
> community college and you have good grades and you've written one
> of those
> inspiring essays, when you write inspiring essays you can get the
> super
> arrogant feeling for a moment and say "That's me in the essay!",
> you're able
> to participate in all kinds of extra activities through agencies
> like Global
> explorers or the Light House, you can participate in summer job
> programs
> like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, when you go to community
> college or
> state college you're given a guide through the school because you
> need a
> mobility lesson and you have the disability resource person.
> I should probably stop, but you get the idea...
> It's probably because I was homeschooled for the first few years
> of my life
> and did all kinds of super awesome things with my overly amazing
> parents and
> didn't enter public school till 5th grade that I have this view
> of school,
> but I understood that I could learn in public school and it was
> just that
> either the teacher wasn't teaching me or that I wasn't equipped
> with the
> skills or technology that was keeping me from learning.
> There are many other factors in learning, like Gardiner's
> multiple  theory
> of intelligences that play a factor in if one learns in school,
> but thank
> goodness I was able to learn that anyone can learn from anyone,
> they just
> need to know how they learn and learn that way!
> I can give examples, but this email is already super long, so
> I'll get off
> education.
> My point is that most blind people aren?셳 taught about all the
> above things.
> I was super lucky because my parents let me run my IEP meetings
> and my mom
> became a TVI half way through my schooling, but every blind
> person needs to
> know that school can be amazing! It is worth spending 8-12 years
> of your
> life there getting your music degree or dentist degree.
>
> Another factor is that disabled people are fit into even a
> tighter mold of
> what they are to be when disabled people are the most unique of
> anyone.
> Blind people do not belong in special ed classes because they
> don't need
> special ed. Special ed teachers are people who teach extreme
> cases of
> autistic or other mentally disabled people. If a blind person is
> put into
> that environment and they don't need it, they will go insane!
> It's like if
> Stephen Hawking would have been born totally disabled and people
> stuck him
> into special ed just because he can't talk!
> Where would cosmology be?
> Sadly it's those who break out of the mold and assimilate their
> own way into
> sighted culture in order to evade the label of mentally disabled
> that are
> fighting for these rights.
>
> I keep on telling people that if someone is considered weird it's
> not them
> that's weird, it's you who's weird for thinking that they're
> weird. It's
> like you thinking the person in front of you is going through
> time the same
> way you are!
>
> Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we have to shuck reason and
> go for
> emotion. That's why we write all the super inspiring essays and
> that's why
> we have to assimilate into the sighted world.
> Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have
> probably not
> learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the
> sighted
> community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level
> jobs.
>
> Before someone gives the line about not needing to be anything
> other than
> blind because we are blind, let me just say that most of this
> world likes to
> think they are sighted and normal. Most people like to walk with
> the crowd.
> Those who never learn to walk with the crowd are considered
> weird, those who
> learn how to walk with the crowd then figure out how to rise
> above it are
> considered great.
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Arielle Silverman
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>
> Hi Brandon,
> These are all good points. I like your statement about blind
> people
> who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I
> have
> met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description.
> The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what
> a
> person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective
> tests
> like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for
> environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities
> or
> knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and teachers,
> or
> what skills they are or are not taught. There is research showing
> that
> when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way,
> they
> tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a
> "self-fulfilling
> prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up
> "Pygmalian
> effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are
> smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids
> differently
> without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up
> performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too
> often
> happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about
> how
> disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in
> ways
> that make those assumptions come true.
> I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more
> productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was
> intrinsically
> interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were
> actually
> good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and
> mental
> abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task
> enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply
> too
> boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities
> have
> their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I
> have
> figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop job,
> I
> would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at
> minimum
> wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my
> hands or
> using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just
> wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking
> and
> doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills
> instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at.
> Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is
> true
> that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the
> unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons for
> unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that
> employers
> want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many
> fields,
> the entry-level position that people get at first to gain
> experience
> isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with
> programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your
> foot in
> the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For
> example,
> before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching, which
> means you are working under someone else who might not use
> accessible
> materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without
> experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory
> doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within
> an
> accessible field, individual employers might use materials that
> aren't
> accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very
> accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or
> scripts
> that aren't accessible, this will limit job options.
> Arielle
>
> On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> wrote:
> Hello,
> It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like
> being mentally
> disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can
> not do. We
> also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like
> mentally
> disabled
> people really are mentally  disabled.
> *That's a mouthful!*
> I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under
> employed
> and
> jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of
> them. But I'm
> not a professional and I can only say from personal experience
> that many
> mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and
> often it's
> because they are babied and misunderstood  that they are
> pressured into
> doing jobs they aren?셳 good at.
>
> I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will
> in the
> first
> place though when it's not that hard learning programming and
> it's pretty
> easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind
> person. If
> your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just
> take a
> class at their community college and change their job. I believe
> SSI is
> for
> college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back
> up when
> work
> isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure
> jobs if I
> go
> into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral
> issues, I'm not
> sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill.
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Arielle Silverman
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>
> Hi all,
> I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating
> items
> like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A
> customer
> boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably
> hurt
> them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very
> persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches
> nationally, we
> make it very clear that what we want is a change to national
> policy.
> Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll
> call her
> S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman
> with
> Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call
> her C).
> Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know
> both S
> and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation.
> Apparently C
> is employed by a program for people with intellectual
> disabilities
> similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S.
> told
> me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely
> menial
> job although I don't remember what that job was exactly.
> However, I
> don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived
> rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries.
> The
> program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even
> had
> independent access to the money she earned at her job.
> I don't think I can really judge whether people with
> disabilities like
> C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending
> their
> own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge
> how
> independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like
> C.
> would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and
> higher expectations should come with higher wages and more
> freedom.
> I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should
> be
> paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that
> blindness
> by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently.
> However, I
> do wonder if minimum wage is necessary for those who don't have
> living
> expenses or who don't manage their own finances because they are
> living in custodial care situations. I'm sure there are people
> in
> these custodial arrangements who shouldn't be there, but that
> almost
> sounds like a separate issue. These people aren't in custodial
> care
> because they are earning low wages, but because their parents or
> others acting on their behalf have decided they don't have the
> intellect or the maturity to make adult decisions. Again, this
> should
> never be said about people who are just blind without other
> disabilities. As far as intellectual disabilities go, in some
> cases
> this judgment might be right; in other cases it might be wrong.
> But if
> someone is clearly not able to manage adult expenses, should
> they be
> paid adult wages? It's tricky.
> I can also understand the argument that if noncompetitive
> employment
> programs for the disabled raise wages, they can't hire as many
> workers. This ultimately means that instead of a bunch of
> disabled
> workers earning crappy wages, some will earn a decent wage and
> others
> will earn nothing. Of course, we hope that the reduction in
> noncompetitive jobs might bring more disabled workers into the
> competitive job market. A mandatory minimum wage would also
> force
> companies with high salaries at the top to redistribute their
> payscale
> more fairly.
> Arielle
>
> On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you say comes true. However,
> there's a
> lot of change we need to make in order for this to happen. Even
> if we
> overturn the subminimum wage provision, and I hope and pray that
> we do,
> we
> can't possibly tell employers that they have to hire people with
> disabilities. So, we need to change the beliefs and the
> attidudes of
> society, including employers, about the competence of blind
> people. I
> know,
> it's a big job, but I think we've made a lot of progress so far.
>
> Just my thoughts,
>
> Chris
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Humberto Avila
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM
> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>
> Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the
> boycott to
> this
> company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to
> put
> pressure
> on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well
> as
> organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end
> up
> spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages
> and they
> could even see that people with disabilities and including blind
> people
> are
> capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential
> employers
> see this change happening, those employers will have a light
> bulb lit up,
> and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then
> will hire
> them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from
> my
> personal
> opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sophie Trist
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>
> Justin,
>
> I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted
> universally,
> it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled workers
> fair
> wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage policy and
> gave
> their
> workers fair wages, other corporations might follow their lead.
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
> From: Justin Salisbury <PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu
> To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun
> 2012
> 23:19:15 +0000
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>
> One more note: I think that local business decision-makers
> within
> Goodwill
> Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change simply
> by the
> fact
> that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries adopted a
> universal
> fair
> wage policy (if they did), so that would help with the
> education, too.
>
> Justin M. Salisbury
> Class of 2012
> B.A. in Mathematics
> East Carolina University
> president at alumni.ecu.edu
>
> 諛죇ver doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens
> can change the world; indeed, it萸?the only thing that ever
> has.?
> 毓뢅RGARET MEAD
> ________________________________________
> From: Justin Salisbury
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Goodwill Boycott
>
> Arielle, Gabe, and all:
>
> I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage
> policies
> and
> rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a
> benefit to
> boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill
> Industries
> would create a centralized
> (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers
> fair wages?
>
> I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill
> Industries to
> adopt
> a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the
> approach
> that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the decisions
> in
> individual locations.  I do understand the point of leading
> local
> business
> leaders to undergo philosophical change and choose to pay their
> workers
> fair wages, but which item is the top priority: education of
> individuals
> or
>
> achievement of fair wages?   That's not a rhetorical question; I
> want to hear opinions on it.
>
> Justin
>
> Justin M. Salisbury
> Class of 2012
> B.A. in Mathematics
> East Carolina University
> president at alumni.ecu.edu
>
> 諛죇ver doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens
> can change the world; indeed, it萸?the only thing that ever
> has.?
> 毓뢅RGARET MEAD
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
> nabs-
> l:
>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade
> r%40gmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
> nabs-l:
>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb
> iggs%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
> nabs-l:
>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g
> mail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for
> nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb
> iggs%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloo
> se%40gmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for
> nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb
> iggs%40gmail.com
>
>
>
>