[nabs-l] Grad School
Joshua Lester
jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu
Sun Jun 10 17:29:37 UTC 2012
UA, as in Arkansas?
I'll be in Dallas!
Thanks, Joshua
On 6/10/12, Deb Mendelsohn <deb.mendelsohn at gmail.com> wrote:
> R there any grad students in NAB?
> I'm attending UA in Spring 4 MLS. R any of u going 2 Dallas?
> Deb
>
> Deb Cell (520) 225-8244
> On Jun 10, 2012 10:17 AM, "Joshua Lester" <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> Wow!
>> You'll be moving to Mr Lewis's headquarters.
>> Speaking of which, I'm about to start a new thread about that!
>> Blessings, Joshua
>>
>> On 6/10/12, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > My new boyfriend is from Georgia, so yeah, I have a good idea of
>> > whuaft kind of foods he likes, sort of. :)
>> > Beth
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu
>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 11:49:37 -0500
>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>> >
>> > Beth, the blind cooks list can provide you with the info you
>> > need, to
>> > cook Southern food.
>> > Where is your new boyfriend from?
>> > Thanks, Joshua
>> >
>> > On 6/10/12, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > First off, my boyfriend can't go to an independent living center
>> > out of state. It took that to get me to learn daily living
>> > skills. I live in my own, but I hate to live for two people.
>> > You've got great points, Brandon. My boyfriend will have to do
>> > daily living trainning, maybe I can find a daily living skills
>> > teacher in his state that can help. I tried learning from a
>> > daily living skills teacher, but the teachers I've worked with
>> > never really told my parents they had to be patient. HE's lucky
>> > his girlfriend is blind and can cook just as good as anyone.
>> > Btw, I made a casserole one day, and it's great that I did. If
>> > I
>> > have to move out with my boyffriend, I'll have to learn and
>> > teach
>> > myself how to make deviled eggs and southern fried chicken, some
>> > of his favorites. But I'll be that patient with him and help
>> > him
>> > get on his feet. I'll probably have to learn something, but I
>> > think living in the bay area won't be possible. I have to live
>> > where he is so that his heart doesn't get damaged or whuaftever.
>> > I think we're better than the people at Goodwill, and .. oh
>> > yeah, hopefully, we get good furniture from a furniture resale
>> > store unlike Goodwill.
>> > Beth
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 08:53:30 -0700
>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>> >
>> > Hello Beth,
>> > let me first say that judging by your emails you definitely have
>> > enough
>> > reasoning and writing ability to get what ever degree you wish.
>> > If you've
>> > read literature on human trafficking you have seen the worst.
>> > They shelter
>> > you in schools because they don't want to get sued. That doctor
>> > definitely
>> > has no idea what he's talking about. If I were you, I'd go to
>> > school and get
>> > that counseling degree, then invite that doctor to my
>> > graduation!
>> > If money
>> > is an issue, DOR and the state often have programs that can
>> > fully
>> > cover the
>> > cost of school, minus housing and food.
>> > Don't worry, you sound lots better informed than many people
>> > that
>> > I know
>> > about personal finance. I was looking at the Hadley Business
>> > section and I
>> > was really wondering why they didn't have personal finance and
>> > investing. I
>> > don't know anyone other than brokers who have the education to
>> > really make
>> > something of their money. Sadly though, personal finance is one
>> > of those
>> > things that are expected one learns on their own. Like speaking
>> > and
>> > socializing, it should just be a given that everyone knows about
>> > how to find
>> > banks with high interest rates and low fees, everyone knows how
>> > to budget
>> > effectively, everyone knows how to find the best deals on food
>> > and clothing,
>> > and no one needs any help on running a family in school.
>> > My communication teacher in school said that 99% of all the
>> > students that
>> > come to her class have never had a communication class in their
>> > life, yet
>> > 100% of her students have had to communicate.
>> > We are both a little baffled at this logic, but that's how life
>> > is I
>> > guess...?
>> > Personally I've found that those who have the most power over
>> > people in this
>> > world are those with money and those with exceptional
>> > communication skills.
>> > I would recommend everyone move to the Bay area here in CA and
>> > go
>> > to
>> > Foothill College. The teachers there are exceptional and the
>> > disability
>> > center is the best in the west. They also give oober
>> > scholarships
>> > to those
>> > students who come off as serious students *Points at his 9 grand
>> > in
>> > scholarships*.
>> > Also, you don't need DOR to pay for any part of school, as one
>> > can get
>> > renewable scholarships at a community college to pay for every
>> > part of
>> > school, except for $47 by just being on SSI.
>> > Beth, Here in the bay area we have a giant human trafficking
>> > problem as we
>> > are one of the major connection points for overseas travel. It's
>> > on the
>> > radio lots how they've caught slavers here and there, but
>> > besides
>> > that, the
>> > Bay Area is so much for women's studies, I've not seen any
>> > general college
>> > that doesn't offer a degree in women's studies.
>> > If I were anyone, I would totally move here to SF or go to NY,
>> > because not
>> > only is the blindness support so great, but public
>> > transportation
>> > is the
>> > best in the nation for both those places.
>> > But enough on me pushing SF...!
>> > Beth, your boyfriend sounds like he could do with a liberal dose
>> > of Daily
>> > living skills. Here where I live, there is a center called the
>> > "Vista
>> > Center" and DOR contracts out teachers to help you become
>> > independent. I
>> > love those teachers, because with their help, I was able to move
>> > out on my
>> > own when I was 18.
>> > I believe the Light House also has programs like this, and
>> > Justin
>> > was saying
>> > something about attending a program that also teaches living
>> > skills. But my
>> > teacher says she encounters two types of people. There are those
>> > who go
>> > above and beyond what they were asked and actually do what they
>> > were taught
>> > on their own, then there are those who do the minimum possible.
>> > They expect
>> > everything to be spoon fed to them. The first group are the ones
>> > who
>> > generally make it in the world as successful individuals. Beth,
>> > if I were
>> > you, I'd have a down to earth talk with your Boyfriend, letting
>> > him know
>> > that as it stands people don't believe in his ability to take
>> > care of
>> > himself. He may think that he could take care of himself, but
>> > you
>> > can let
>> > him know that he will have to prove it first. If he agrees, than
>> > it's time
>> > to look for a daily living skills teacher. If not, he may want
>> > to
>> > be sent to
>> > one of the independent living facilities, so he can see first
>> > hand why he
>> > must learn living skills in order to be free.
>> > I don't believe marriage should be really talked about until
>> > after your
>> > Boyfriend proves his stuff. Because Beth, you've got your life
>> > to
>> > live and
>> > you should not be forced to live for two people which you would
>> > be doing if
>> > you married and moved out with your boyfriend as things are now.
>> >
>> > I know what you mean about not going to prom. I never went to
>> > prom with a
>> > girl when I was in High school. I actually didn't get a
>> > girlfriend till my
>> > last year of High School and I broke up with her 5 months later.
>> > I didn't
>> > have another till a little over a year after that. It was with
>> > that second
>> > girlfriend that I went to prom. Frankly, school dances are the
>> > worst things
>> > since the invention of eyes.
>> > If you like loud music beating so loud that you can't hear
>> > yourself think,
>> > let alone hear your date talking, and if you like being squeezed
>> > together on
>> > all sides by grinding individuals, and if you're being shown how
>> > to dance by
>> > your partner, the only word I can label this, is hell.
>> > The romantic things before and after the dance are great, but
>> > the
>> > dance
>> > itself is terrible. So let me assure you that except for the
>> > romantic part,
>> > you did not miss much at the prom. They didn't even play the
>> > Blue
>> > Danube at
>> > the prom I went to! I thought that was required in order to have
>> > a dance to
>> > call themselves a dance?
>> > anyways, in my opinion the education is much more important when
>> > you're
>> > going through school than the social aspects. In college though,
>> > guys become
>> > much smarter and women become way more emotionally sound, just
>> > because they
>> > have lived and learned much more through their life.
>> > Most of the girls I've thought about dating have not been mature
>> > enough in
>> > some aspect of their life. My last girlfriend was too immature
>> > when it came
>> > to being focused and I learned the hard way that you should
>> > never
>> > expect
>> > people to change. So part of my problem about having a small
>> > social life is
>> > that even now, I find that the women I'm attracted to are still
>> > much to
>> > immature in some way for any kind of relationship to work.
>> > But for high school, I was not socially mature and even now I'm
>> > not socially
>> > mature enough to really fit in the sighted world. This is the
>> > biggest
>> > problem I've found, blind people are not able to pass themselves
>> > off as good
>> > relationship material in the sighted world. If the world was
>> > only
>> > blind this
>> > would be different, but because we live in a sight run culture,
>> > being able
>> > to be socially mature to those who are sighted is crucial if one
>> > wants to
>> > make it in anything other than strictly working in something
>> > like
>> > the NFB or
>> > Goodwill.
>> > We have to work extra hard at understanding what sighted people
>> > think and
>> > how sighted people do things in order to live as the sighted
>> > people. Once
>> > we're able to pass ourselves off enough so no one believes we're
>> > blind, we
>> > should then and only then, begin to emphasize the fact that we
>> > are blind.
>> > Because if we establish to people that we're blind first, they
>> > will look no
>> > farther than our disability. In sighted human evolution, being
>> > disabled is
>> > repulsive and we've got to fight against nature in order to do
>> > anything in
>> > the sighted world. Once one is able to show that they are a
>> > sighted person
>> > first, then they can show they are blind and at that point, one
>> > is able to
>> > make blindness something to be desired and interesting, not
>> > repulsive and
>> > weird.
>> > Thank you,
>> >
>> > Brandon Keith Biggs
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Beth
>> > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 1:01 AM
>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>> >
>> > Great points, Brandon. As someone who is both blind and
>> > mentally
>> > ill, I understand how it feels to be considered weird. I've
>> > been
>> > called a creep, told by some girl to my boyfriend's face that he
>> > could do better due to my disorder, and then threatened with all
>> > kinds of emotional attack and abuse. Due to blindness, I was
>> > told by the docs I'd be a vegetable. Huh? My dad says I'm a
>> > genius. I don't know, but my last IQ check said I was a 133,
>> > superior without all the visual battery of tests. But then
>> > again, IQ isn't everything. I live in Denver, alone, with no
>> > roommate to pander to my every need. I probably should say that
>> > with the right support and good friends around me, I could
>> > thrive. I could become a "normal" woman, work a "normal" job,
>> > and get "normal" wages. I could take care of children, my own
>> > children, and raise them to be good people, productive citizens
>> > of the United States of America, and I'd look forward to good
>> > days and bad days along the way. My old cane teacher is a
>> > fountain of wisdom when it comes to life's miseries, and the
>> > rapids of life don't get any higher than what they are. I could
>> > get deeper and say that God doesn't put us in a river with
>> > rapids
>> > that could not be handled by the rider. One of the biggest
>> > "whitewater rapids" so to speak is the employment and wages
>> > thing. Brandon and Arielle, you guys make a good point in that
>> > blind people are trained to act like mentally disabled people.
>> > My boyfriend doesn't know money. I wonder if I can possibly
>> > teach him the basics of money management and budgeting. I
>> > struggle with it myself because SSI is too little to live off
>> > of,
>> > and I was given a plane ticket, but not the money for baggage
>> > fees and cab fare to get to and from the airport. So I'm stuck
>> > paying for that. My boyfriend also doesn't know how to keep
>> > track of his own wages, and if he becomes a big-time producer
>> > for
>> > all sorts of rappers who would run to him, I don't know how he's
>> > going to run the household and help me pay my bills too. What
>> > if
>> > I'm incapacitated for real this time? I mean, like, Terry
>> > Shiavo? How's Jason, who I may designate as a healthcare
>> > surrogate, going to make that decision? My hope is that he
>> > won't
>> > have to do that, but if that happens, I need someone that I feel
>> > can be trusted to make the decisions about my bills and stuff.
>> > I
>> > was asked by my boyfriend's mom of all people to help her with
>> > him a bit. Just to think of Jason in the situation he's in just
>> > makes me so sick. I want him to manage his own wages, cook me a
>> > meal if I get sick, and fry me some chicken or grill a burger on
>> > Memorial Day. He has the potential to do those things, and the
>> > weird part is that his parents are open to us having a
>> > relationship. Most disabled people's parents, including but not
>> > limited to my own, are not as open about relations with poorer
>> > people. Both Jason and I are poor, but I think we can live
>> > together successfully with all the right supports, and if we
>> > can't find jobs, so what? We need family support to get by.
>> > But
>> > I really do dream of having my own private house, being able to
>> > manage my bills, being able to buy foods that are nutritious to
>> > my children and so on, and feeding the baby and having Jason
>> > there to have breakfast with in the mornings, and not his old
>> > mother. Not to say she's bad, but it's a dream I want to have.
>> > My mother should not have to manage my money. Yes, I'm not so
>> > good at money management, but I've learned a few lessons like
>> > how
>> > to go back and look at your payment history every time if you
>> > get
>> > suspicious about a charge. Like if the bills are on autopay,
>> > you
>> > have to look back and see if the weird corporate robbers, if I
>> > may use such a cold term, are stealing your money. I felt
>> > Comcast was robbing me of my precious money, and especially this
>> > month
>> > because of a trip, and next month because of a move I have to
>> > do,
>> > I can't afford a $70 internet bill. That's just too much unless
>> > you're really living in low income housing. I know a lot about
>> > disabled or low income housing. Boy, my boyfriend has a lot to
>> > learn, and he'll learn lots while I'm with him. Lots of times,
>> > blind people are sheltered by their parents, and of course, the
>> > parents I had were good parents, no doubt, but they had their
>> > flaws. Jason is lucky in some ways, but his parents said the
>> > same stuff that all sighted people say, "He has it made. We
>> > wait
>> > on him hand and foot ..." And so on. This creates a problem.
>> > Blind people need to not be waited on hand and foot. We can't
>> > necessarily be pandered to our every need like little Veruca
>> > Salt
>> > in charlie and the Chocolate Factory if I may reference a
>> > spoiled
>> > literary figure. We can't be pandered or revered as Helen
>> > Keller
>> > was by her family in her early years. Unlike Jason, Helen was
>> > deaf and in me and Jason's time, jobs are ample, and skills are
>> > ample thanks to technology. With Helen Keller's time, there
>> > were
>> > no jobs open, and marriage and motherhood were closed to Helen.
>> > I as a blind woman am thankful that marriage is open to
>> > me--hence
>> > the boyfriend I currently have--and relationships period. Jobs
>> > and technology have risen while I was growing up. It only seems
>> > like yesterday that I would not be sending this superbly long
>> > email. Thanks to emails and Facebook and Twitter, I feel much
>> > more connected to my friends and family, and especially to my
>> > dear cousin Sarah, but yet she never calls me. Ha ha. But
>> > thanks to cell phones, I can go anywhere and give everyone a
>> > text
>> > message. Imagine poor blind Beth texting! It only seems like
>> > yesterday that my parents didn't think I needed an accessible
>> > phone, but when I fought to get an accessible phone, and my
>> > ex-boyfriend taught me how to write letters on the phone, which
>> > is a skill I still fail at sometimes (lol), I have texted my
>> > friends and I can receive texts from people. I would hate to
>> > change my address, but I do that. I will be in Denver for a
>> > good
>> > while so I can do my college and keep the ducks in a row as I
>> > would hear my mother say. When I get my ducks in a row, I plan
>> > to move on to bigger and better things, and I want to get a job
>> > helping human trafficking victims. Denver has a strong victim
>> > advocate program, but that's only the Muslim Family Services
>> > that
>> > may have that. I'd heard that Atlanta has a big problem with
>> > human trafficking. Well, so do some areas of Florida, but if
>> > there's slavery and trafficking, I'll be there to stop it. I'd
>> > like to give former slaves and prostitutes a chance at life, but
>> > where will I go without a college degree in women's studies and
>> > a
>> > good background in such matters? I was never trafficked, but I
>> > have read countless literature, and have seen it firsthand or
>> > through others, what sorts of cruelty exist in the world.
>> > To keep the message on topic, I want to say that such a job
>> > helping human trafficking victims shouldn't require a social
>> > work
>> > degree, which the doc says I'm too messed up to do. I want to
>> > advise all of us to please take suspicious statements like,
>> > "She's pretending to be a certain ethnic group" or "She's not
>> > fit
>> > to do something because of mental deficiencies." What sort of
>> > nonsensical statements these are! DVR in Colorado doesn't seem
>> > to get it. They tell me I'm too messed up for college but they
>> > don't seem to understand that the importance of college is more
>> > to me than anybody. My brothers are taking college classes, and
>> > they will graduate, marry, and have families as expected. But
>> > what will I do? My parents will dictate who I will marry due to
>> > gender and blindness, they will tell me what talents I have
>> > because I'm so "malleable", as some people think blind people
>> > are, and then my teachers, doctors, psychologists, social
>> > workers, and case managers will either take my babies or let me
>> > keep them with sighted supervision, and so on. But going
>> > through
>> > school is not easy. Brandon, you said school is great, but you
>> > don't realize that as a blind person in a million living in a
>> > small town, nobody cared to dance with me at homecoming or prom.
>> > That's the price I paid for being blind. Nobody cared to offer
>> > me flowers on a date. I didn't have the normal teenager things
>> > that every teenage girl dreams about. If I have a daughter, I
>> > want to dress her up for prom and her wedding day with such
>> > pride
>> > a mother would share with her spouse and daughter alike. My
>> > mother never got that opportunity with me. She would help me
>> > into my chorus dresses, but those were mere obligations to the
>> > school. My mom believed that prom was for dates only, and
>> > summer
>> > jobs? Out of the question. I can't get a good experience if I
>> > am not allowed to work. Titusville is a small town in Florida,
>> > and I and another man were the only blind people in it. I being
>> > the only and youngest blind woman in the town couldn't be
>> > offered
>> > a job. The only jobs offered were at the hospital, where
>> > medical
>> > experience was required, and the Space Center, where engineering
>> > degrees were preferred. My dad can attest to the people he's
>> > interviewed for jobs, and unfortunately, there's not enough
>> > blind
>> > computer engineers, except those in the underground geek
>> > industry
>> > as I like to call it, to go around. We also need to learn to
>> > communicate with others who are sighted, speak their language so
>> > to speak.
>> > Ok, my rant is over.
>> > Beth
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> > Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun 2012 23:57:32 -0700
>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>> >
>> > Hello,
>> > I'm sure many people who have talked to me before know what I'm
>> > going to
>> > say...
>> > It's the educational system that many of these problems come
>> > down
>> > to. We
>> > have teachers coming out of school who are not inspired to
>> > create
>> > a new
>> > style of teaching. We have teachers who are never taught about
>> > disabled
>> > students. We have blind students who are never taught how to ask
>> > for
>> > accommodations. We have parents who think being blind is bad!
>> > Honestly, if I could have redone my education as a sighted
>> > person, I would
>> > not have done it. Being blind is such an advantage in the United
>> > States when
>> > going through school. You get extra time on everything, you get
>> > leniency on
>> > all your assignments if you can't finish them on time, you get
>> > free
>> > schooling, you get paid to go through school by SSI, you have so
>> > many
>> > scholarships you can apply for, you can use the law to fight for
>> > accessibility with little retribution, you become great friends
>> > with your
>> > teachers just because you get to talk to them all the time, you
>> > are by
>> > nature a very active participant in your class, you are able to
>> > read your
>> > books 1000 times faster than all of the other students combined,
>> > you're able
>> > to get tutoring for free, you don't have to feel ashamed for
>> > taking
>> > advantage of any of the above benefits because you're disabled
>> > and that's
>> > what you're expected to do!
>> > Also, the expectation of your teachers is rather low and when
>> > you
>> > get 100%
>> > on all their hardest tests they get all embarrassed, people
>> > think
>> > it's
>> > amazing that you're getting strait As when it's nothing,
>> > (Stereotypically)
>> > blind people are very unsocial so they have lots of extra time
>> > to
>> > do school
>> > work, you're able to actually edit your teacher's handouts and
>> > instructions
>> > because Jaws doesn't miss skipped letters, if you have a problem
>> > with your
>> > online test you can blame it on your screen reader crashing the
>> > web browser,
>> > state colleges gobble you up if you have ever taken an honors
>> > class at a
>> > community college and you have good grades and you've written
>> > one
>> > of those
>> > inspiring essays, when you write inspiring essays you can get
>> > the
>> > super
>> > arrogant feeling for a moment and say "That's me in the essay!",
>> > you're able
>> > to participate in all kinds of extra activities through agencies
>> > like Global
>> > explorers or the Light House, you can participate in summer job
>> > programs
>> > like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, when you go to community
>> > college or
>> > state college you're given a guide through the school because
>> > you
>> > need a
>> > mobility lesson and you have the disability resource person.
>> > I should probably stop, but you get the idea...
>> > It's probably because I was homeschooled for the first few years
>> > of my life
>> > and did all kinds of super awesome things with my overly amazing
>> > parents and
>> > didn't enter public school till 5th grade that I have this view
>> > of school,
>> > but I understood that I could learn in public school and it was
>> > just that
>> > either the teacher wasn't teaching me or that I wasn't equipped
>> > with the
>> > skills or technology that was keeping me from learning.
>> > There are many other factors in learning, like Gardiner's
>> > multiple theory
>> > of intelligences that play a factor in if one learns in school,
>> > but thank
>> > goodness I was able to learn that anyone can learn from anyone,
>> > they just
>> > need to know how they learn and learn that way!
>> > I can give examples, but this email is already super long, so
>> > I'll get off
>> > education.
>> > My point is that most blind people aren?셳 taught about all
>> > the
>> > above things.
>> > I was super lucky because my parents let me run my IEP meetings
>> > and my mom
>> > became a TVI half way through my schooling, but every blind
>> > person needs to
>> > know that school can be amazing! It is worth spending 8-12 years
>> > of your
>> > life there getting your music degree or dentist degree.
>> >
>> > Another factor is that disabled people are fit into even a
>> > tighter mold of
>> > what they are to be when disabled people are the most unique of
>> > anyone.
>> > Blind people do not belong in special ed classes because they
>> > don't need
>> > special ed. Special ed teachers are people who teach extreme
>> > cases of
>> > autistic or other mentally disabled people. If a blind person is
>> > put into
>> > that environment and they don't need it, they will go insane!
>> > It's like if
>> > Stephen Hawking would have been born totally disabled and people
>> > stuck him
>> > into special ed just because he can't talk!
>> > Where would cosmology be?
>> > Sadly it's those who break out of the mold and assimilate their
>> > own way into
>> > sighted culture in order to evade the label of mentally disabled
>> > that are
>> > fighting for these rights.
>> >
>> > I keep on telling people that if someone is considered weird
>> > it's
>> > not them
>> > that's weird, it's you who's weird for thinking that they're
>> > weird. It's
>> > like you thinking the person in front of you is going through
>> > time the same
>> > way you are!
>> >
>> > Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we have to shuck reason
>> > and
>> > go for
>> > emotion. That's why we write all the super inspiring essays and
>> > that's why
>> > we have to assimilate into the sighted world.
>> > Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have
>> > probably not
>> > learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the
>> > sighted
>> > community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level
>> > jobs.
>> >
>> > Before someone gives the line about not needing to be anything
>> > other than
>> > blind because we are blind, let me just say that most of this
>> > world likes to
>> > think they are sighted and normal. Most people like to walk with
>> > the crowd.
>> > Those who never learn to walk with the crowd are considered
>> > weird, those who
>> > learn how to walk with the crowd then figure out how to rise
>> > above it are
>> > considered great.
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Brandon Keith Biggs
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Arielle Silverman
>> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM
>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>> >
>> > Hi Brandon,
>> > These are all good points. I like your statement about blind
>> > people
>> > who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I
>> > have
>> > met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description.
>> > The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what
>> > a
>> > person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective
>> > tests
>> > like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for
>> > environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities
>> > or
>> > knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and
>> > teachers,
>> > or
>> > what skills they are or are not taught. There is research
>> > showing
>> > that
>> > when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way,
>> > they
>> > tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a
>> > "self-fulfilling
>> > prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up
>> > "Pygmalian
>> > effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are
>> > smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids
>> > differently
>> > without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up
>> > performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too
>> > often
>> > happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about
>> > how
>> > disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in
>> > ways
>> > that make those assumptions come true.
>> > I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more
>> > productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was
>> > intrinsically
>> > interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were
>> > actually
>> > good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and
>> > mental
>> > abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task
>> > enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply
>> > too
>> > boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities
>> > have
>> > their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I
>> > have
>> > figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop
>> > job,
>> > I
>> > would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at
>> > minimum
>> > wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my
>> > hands or
>> > using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just
>> > wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking
>> > and
>> > doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills
>> > instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at.
>> > Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is
>> > true
>> > that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the
>> > unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons
>> > for
>> > unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that
>> > employers
>> > want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many
>> > fields,
>> > the entry-level position that people get at first to gain
>> > experience
>> > isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with
>> > programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your
>> > foot in
>> > the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For
>> > example,
>> > before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching,
>> > which
>> > means you are working under someone else who might not use
>> > accessible
>> > materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without
>> > experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory
>> > doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within
>> > an
>> > accessible field, individual employers might use materials that
>> > aren't
>> > accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very
>> > accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or
>> > scripts
>> > that aren't accessible, this will limit job options.
>> > Arielle
>> >
>> > On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>> > Hello,
>> > It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like
>> > being mentally
>> > disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can
>> > not do. We
>> > also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like
>> > mentally
>> > disabled
>> > people really are mentally disabled.
>> > *That's a mouthful!*
>> > I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under
>> > employed
>> > and
>> > jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of
>> > them. But I'm
>> > not a professional and I can only say from personal experience
>> > that many
>> > mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and
>> > often it's
>> > because they are babied and misunderstood that they are
>> > pressured into
>> > doing jobs they aren?셳 good at.
>> >
>> > I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will
>> > in the
>> > first
>> > place though when it's not that hard learning programming and
>> > it's pretty
>> > easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind
>> > person. If
>> > your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just
>> > take a
>> > class at their community college and change their job. I believe
>> > SSI is
>> > for
>> > college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back
>> > up when
>> > work
>> > isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure
>> > jobs if I
>> > go
>> > into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral
>> > issues, I'm not
>> > sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill.
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Brandon Keith Biggs
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Arielle Silverman
>> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM
>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>> >
>> > Hi all,
>> > I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating
>> > items
>> > like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A
>> > customer
>> > boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably
>> > hurt
>> > them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very
>> > persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches
>> > nationally, we
>> > make it very clear that what we want is a change to national
>> > policy.
>> > Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll
>> > call her
>> > S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman
>> > with
>> > Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call
>> > her C).
>> > Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know
>> > both S
>> > and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation.
>> > Apparently C
>> > is employed by a program for people with intellectual
>> > disabilities
>> > similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S.
>> > told
>> > me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely
>> > menial
>> > job although I don't remember what that job was exactly.
>> > However, I
>> > don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived
>> > rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries.
>> > The
>> > program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even
>> > had
>> > independent access to the money she earned at her job.
>> > I don't think I can really judge whether people with
>> > disabilities like
>> > C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending
>> > their
>> > own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge
>> > how
>> > independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like
>> > C.
>> > would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and
>> > higher expectations should come with higher wages and more
>> > freedom.
>> > I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should
>> > be
>> > paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that
>> > blindness
>> > by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently
>> >
>>
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