[nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
Anmol Bhatia
anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com
Mon Jun 11 14:31:10 UTC 2012
Josh,
Just so you know knowone can can attend ASB past the age of 21.
Anmol
I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze among flowers.
Hellen Keller
--- On Sun, 6/10/12, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu> wrote:
> From: Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Sunday, June 10, 2012, 11:46 AM
> Sophie!
> You don't know how bad schools for the blind are!
> Good grief!
> When I attended the Jumpstart program, at Arkansas School
> for the
> Blind, I was sad to see kids my age, who should've graduated
> from high
> school, who had straight A's, be held back!
> I asked around, and the oldest graduates from the school, in
> 2007, was
> 25 years old!
> That's what one former student told me.
> Sad!
> Blessings, Joshua
>
> On 6/10/12, Sophie Trist <sweetpeareader at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I was very fortunate to have a good TVI for most of my
> life, but
> > when Hurricane Katrina hit, I was forced to leave home
> and attend
> > a school for the blind. I was shocked at how horrible
> it was. On
> > my first day there, I was taken to a VI class and asked
> to read a
> > braille book so that they could evaluate my skills.
> Within five
> > minutes, they sent me right back to class. The TVI's
> there had
> > nothing new to teach me. I was in a third/fourth-grade
> class, and
> > the work was first-grade level. This boils down to we
> need better
> > TVI's and more of them.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu
> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing
> list
> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 02:11:25 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
> >
> > Wow!
> > You're right!
> > I didn't have a real TVI, for 6/12th grade.
> > My TVI, (So called,) was a special Ed teacher, who
> ended up
> > getting
> > trained as a TVI.
> > If she wasn't there to help me, guess where I was
> forced to go!
> > Yup!
> > Special Ed classes!
> > Of course, I enjoyed it, because the instructor knew I
> didn't
> > need to
> > be there, so she allowed me to help her with the kids,
> that
> > actually
> > needed the help.
> > Blessings, Joshua
> >
> > On 6/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > Hello,
> > I'm sure many people who have talked to me before
> know what I'm
> > going to
> > say...
> > It's the educational system that many of these
> problems come
> > down to. We
> > have teachers coming out of school who are not
> inspired to
> > create a new
> > style of teaching. We have teachers who are never
> taught about
> > disabled
> > students. We have blind students who are never
> taught how to ask
> > for
> > accommodations. We have parents who think being
> blind is bad!
> > Honestly, if I could have redone my education as
> a sighted
> > person, I would
> > not have done it. Being blind is such an
> advantage in the United
> > States when
> > going through school. You get extra time on
> everything, you get
> > leniency on
> > all your assignments if you can't finish them on
> time, you get
> > free
> > schooling, you get paid to go through school by
> SSI, you have so
> > many
> > scholarships you can apply for, you can use the
> law to fight for
> > accessibility with little retribution, you become
> great friends
> > with your
> > teachers just because you get to talk to them all
> the time, you
> > are by
> > nature a very active participant in your class,
> you are able to
> > read your
> > books 1000 times faster than all of the other
> students combined,
> > you're able
> > to get tutoring for free, you don't have to feel
> ashamed for
> > taking
> > advantage of any of the above benefits because
> you're disabled
> > and that's
> > what you're expected to do!
> > Also, the expectation of your teachers is rather
> low and when
> > you get 100%
> > on all their hardest tests they get all
> embarrassed, people
> > think it's
> > amazing that you're getting strait As when it's
> nothing,
> > (Stereotypically)
> > blind people are very unsocial so they have lots
> of extra time
> > to do school
> > work, you're able to actually edit your teacher's
> handouts and
> > instructions
> > because Jaws doesn't miss skipped letters, if you
> have a problem
> > with your
> > online test you can blame it on your screen
> reader crashing the
> > web browser,
> > state colleges gobble you up if you have ever
> taken an honors
> > class at a
> > community college and you have good grades and
> you've written
> > one of those
> > inspiring essays, when you write inspiring essays
> you can get
> > the super
> > arrogant feeling for a moment and say "That's me
> in the essay!",
> > you're able
> > to participate in all kinds of extra activities
> through agencies
> > like Global
> > explorers or the Light House, you can participate
> in summer job
> > programs
> > like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, when you
> go to community
> > college or
> > state college you're given a guide through the
> school because
> > you need a
> > mobility lesson and you have the disability
> resource person...
> > I should probably stop, but you get the idea...
> > It's probably because I was homeschooled for the
> first few years
> > of my life
> > and did all kinds of super awesome things with my
> overly amazing
> > parents and
> > didn't enter public school till 5th grade that I
> have this view
> > of school,
> > but I understood that I could learn in public
> school and it was
> > just that
> > either the teacher wasn't teaching me or that I
> wasn't equipped
> > with the
> > skills or technology that was keeping me from
> learning.
> > There are many other factors in learning, like
> Gardiner's
> > multiple theory
> > of intelligences that play a factor in if one
> learns in school,
> > but thank
> > goodness I was able to learn that anyone can
> learn from anyone,
> > they just
> > need to know how they learn and learn that way!
> > I can give examples, but this email is already
> super long, so
> > I'll get off
> > education.
> > My point is that most blind people aren’t
> taught about all the
> > above things.
> > I was super lucky because my parents let me run
> my IEP meetings
> > and my mom
> > became a TVI half way through my schooling, but
> every blind
> > person needs to
> > know that school can be amazing! It is worth
> spending 8-12 years
> > of your
> > life there getting your music degree or dentist
> degree.
> >
> > Another factor is that disabled people are fit
> into even a
> > tighter mold of
> > what they are to be when disabled people are the
> most unique of
> > anyone.
> > Blind people do not belong in special ed classes
> because they
> > don't need
> > special ed. Special ed teachers are people who
> teach extreme
> > cases of
> > autistic or other mentally disabled people. If a
> blind person is
> > put into
> > that environment and they don't need it, they
> will go insane!
> > It's like if
> > Stephen Hawking would have been born totally
> disabled and people
> > stuck him
> > into special ed just because he can't talk!
> > Where would cosmology be?
> > Sadly it's those who break out of the mold and
> assimilate their
> > own way into
> > sighted culture in order to evade the label of
> mentally disabled
> > that are
> > fighting for these rights.
> >
> > I keep on telling people that if someone is
> considered weird
> > it's not them
> > that's weird, it's you who's weird for thinking
> that they're
> > weird. It's
> > like you thinking the person in front of you is
> going through
> > time the same
> > way you are!
> >
> > Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we have to
> shuck reason
> > and go for
> > emotion. That's why we write all the super
> inspiring essays and
> > that's why
> > we have to assimilate into the sighted world.
> > Those who end up working in low under minimum
> wage jobs have
> > probably not
> > learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as
> "normal" in the
> > sighted
> > community, so that's probably why they can't get
> the entry level
> > jobs.
> >
> > Before someone gives the line about not needing
> to be anything
> > other than
> > blind because we are blind, let me just say that
> most of this
> > world likes to
> > think they are sighted and normal. Most people
> like to walk with
> > the crowd.
> > Those who never learn to walk with the crowd are
> considered
> > weird, those who
> > learn how to walk with the crowd then figure out
> how to rise
> > above it are
> > considered great.
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Brandon Keith Biggs
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Arielle Silverman
> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM
> > To: National Association of Blind Students
> mailing list
> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
> >
> > Hi Brandon,
> > These are all good points. I like your statement
> about blind
> > people
> > who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally
> disabled" as I
> > have
> > met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit
> that description.
> > The problem is that there is no objective test to
> determine what
> > a
> > person is or is not capable of doing. Even
> so-called objective
> > tests
> > like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't
> account for
> > environmental factors that artificially limit
> people's abilities
> > or
> > knowledge, like what is expected of them by
> parents and
> > teachers, or
> > what skills they are or are not taught. There is
> research
> > showing that
> > when people are expected to behave or perform in
> a certain way,
> > they
> > tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called
> a
> > "self-fulfilling
> > prophesy; if you're interested in the research,
> look up
> > "Pygmalian
> > effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that
> some kids are
> > smarter than others, they tend to treat those
> "smart" kids
> > differently
> > without even realizing it and eventually the
> "smart" kids end up
> > performing better than the other kids. The
> reverse pattern too
> > often
> > happens with disabilities. People have so many
> assumptions about
> > how
> > disabilities limit potential, and people in
> authority can act in
> > ways
> > that make those assumptions come true.
> > I also agree that people with disabilities would
> be much more
> > productive in sheltered jobs if they did work
> that was
> > intrinsically
> > interesting to them and if the work was in a
> field they were
> > actually
> > good at. It is common knowledge that people of
> all ages and
> > mental
> > abilities will do a better job at any task if
> they find the task
> > enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered
> jobs are simply
> > too
> > boring to really engage people. Also, people with
> disabilities
> > have
> > their own talents that are rarely utilized in
> sheltered jobs. I
> > have
> > figured out that if I were forced to do a
> sheltered workshop
> > job, I
> > would probably be the one losing them money if
> they paid me at
> > minimum
> > wage, because I have never been good at making
> stuff with my
> > hands or
> > using machines. Not only would I be bored to
> tears, but I just
> > wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at
> writing and thinking
> > and
> > doing math, so I hope that society will let me
> use those skills
> > instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled
> at.
> > Regarding your comment about unemployment among
> the blind, it is
> > true
> > that many fields are accessible to the blind
> these days, yet the
> > unemployment rate is still staggering. There are
> many reasons
> > for
> > unemployment among the blind. I think one reason
> is that
> > employers
> > want to hire applicants with relevant experience,
> and in many
> > fields,
> > the entry-level position that people get at first
> to gain
> > experience
> > isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be
> true with
> > programming, but in some fields it is really hard
> to get your
> > foot in
> > the door even if it's easier to work at higher
> levels. For
> > example,
> > before becoming a teacher, you need to do student
> teaching,
> > which
> > means you are working under someone else who
> might not use
> > accessible
> > materials or who will doubt your ability to do
> the job. Without
> > experience, it's harder to allay people's initial
> discriminatory
> > doubts and fears about hiring a blind person.
> Also, even within
> > an
> > accessible field, individual employers might use
> materials that
> > aren't
> > accessible to the blind. So even though
> programming is very
> > accessible, if some employers require you to use
> languages or
> > scripts
> > that aren't accessible, this will limit job
> options.
> > Arielle
> >
> > On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > Hello,
> > It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what
> it's like
> > being mentally
> > disabled and it's hard to say what mentally
> disabled can or can
> > not do. We
> > also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to
> act like
> > mentally
> > disabled
> > people really are mentally disabled.
> > *That's a mouthful!*
> > I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people
> are way under
> > employed
> > and
> > jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job
> for many of
> > them. But I'm
> > not a professional and I can only say from
> personal experience
> > that many
> > mentally disabled people can do what they want
> quite well and
> > often it's
> > because they are babied and misunderstood
> that they are
> > pressured into
> > doing jobs they aren’t good at.
> >
> > I do wonder the need of blind adults to be
> working at good will
> > in the
> > first
> > place though when it's not that hard learning
> programming and
> > it's pretty
> > easy to get reeducated for free in the United
> States as a blind
> > person. If
> > your career isn't working out, I don't see why
> one wouldn't just
> > take a
> > class at their community college and change their
> job. I believe
> > SSI is
> > for
> > college students and those fresh out of college,
> or for a back
> > up when
> > work
> > isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I
> have for sure
> > jobs if I
> > go
> > into programming or being a TVI. So other than
> the moral
> > issues, I'm not
> > sure why capable blind people are working at
> goodwill.
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Brandon Keith Biggs
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Arielle Silverman
> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM
> > To: National Association of Blind Students
> mailing list
> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
> >
> > Hi all,
> > I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was
> regularly donating
> > items
> > like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do
> as well. A
> > customer
> > boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott
> would probably
> > hurt
> > them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's
> arguments very
> > persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all
> branches
> > nationally, we
> > make it very clear that what we want is a change
> to national
> > policy.
> > Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a
> woman (I'll
> > call her
> > S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in
> caretaker for a woman
> > with
> > Down's syndrome and significant mental
> retardation (I'll call
> > her C).
> > Since I rented the apartment right below theirs,
> I got to know
> > both S
> > and C quite well and learned a bit about C's
> situation.
> > Apparently C
> > is employed by a program for people with
> intellectual
> > disabilities
> > similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill
> itself. I think S.
> > told
> > me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing
> an extremely
> > menial
> > job although I don't remember what that job was
> exactly.
> > However, I
> > don't think C. had any living expenses at all
> because she lived
> > rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay
> for groceries.
> > The
> > program she was in was very custodial and I'm not
> sure she even
> > had
> > independent access to the money she earned at her
> job.
> > I don't think I can really judge whether people
> with
> > disabilities like
> > C.'s are capable of living without custodial care
> or spending
> > their
> > own money, any more than a deaf person should be
> able to judge
> > how
> > independent blind people can be. I do suspect
> that people like
> > C.
> > would achieve more if they were held to higher
> expectations, and
> > higher expectations should come with higher wages
> and more
> > freedom.
> > I definitely believe that anyone who lives
> independently should
> > be
> > paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is
> clear that
> > blindness
> > by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living
> independently.
> > However, I
> > do wonder if minimum wage is necessary for those
> who don't have
> > living
> > expenses or who don't manage their own finances
> because they are
> > living in custodial care situations. I'm sure
> there are people
> > in
> > these custodial arrangements who shouldn't be
> there, but that
> > almost
> > sounds like a separate issue. These people aren't
> in custodial
> > care
> > because they are earning low wages, but because
> their parents or
> > others acting on their behalf have decided they
> don't have the
> > intellect or the maturity to make adult
> decisions. Again, this
> > should
> > never be said about people who are just blind
> without other
> > disabilities. As far as intellectual disabilities
> go, in some
> > cases
> > this judgment might be right; in other cases it
> might be wrong.
> > But if
> > someone is clearly not able to manage adult
> expenses, should
> > they be
> > paid adult wages? It's tricky.
> > I can also understand the argument that if
> noncompetitive
> > employment
> > programs for the disabled raise wages, they can't
> hire as many
> > workers. This ultimately means that instead of a
> bunch of
> > disabled
> > workers earning crappy wages, some will earn a
> decent wage and
> > others
> > will earn nothing. Of course, we hope that the
> reduction in
> > noncompetitive jobs might bring more disabled
> workers into the
> > competitive job market. A mandatory minimum wage
> would also
> > force
> > companies with high salaries at the top to
> redistribute their
> > payscale
> > more fairly.
> > Arielle
> >
> > On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you say comes
> true. However,
> > there's a
> > lot of change we need to make in order for this
> to happen. Even
> > if we
> > overturn the subminimum wage provision, and I
> hope and pray that
> > we do,
> > we
> > can't possibly tell employers that they have to
> hire people with
> > disabilities. So, we need to change the beliefs
> and the
> > attidudes of
> > society, including employers, about the
> competence of blind
> > people. I
> > know,
> > it's a big job, but I think we've made a lot of
> progress so far.
> >
> > Just my thoughts,
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
> > Behalf Of Humberto Avila
> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM
> > To: 'National Association of Blind Students
> mailing list'
> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
> >
> > Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by
> doing the
> > boycott to
> > this
> > company, in the national / universal spectrum, we
> are able to
> > put
> > pressure
> > on employers, and on other companies and
> corporations, as well
> > as
> > organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could
> eventually end
> > up
> > spreading the word of stopping companies to pay
> subminimum wages
> > and they
> > could even see that people with disabilities and
> including blind
> > people
> > are
> > capable of being paid like the sighted
> population. If potential
> > employers
> > see this change happening, those employers will
> have a light
> > bulb lit up,
> > and will be able to see that blind people are
> competent, then
> > will hire
> > them. Then we can make more change. I see this
> happening, from
> > my
> > personal
> > opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]
> On
> > Behalf Of Sophie Trist
> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM
> > To: National Association of Blind Students
> mailing list
> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
> >
> > Justin,
> >
> > I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill
> was boycotted
> > universally,
> > it would put more pressure on them to pay their
> disabled workers
> > fair
> > wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized
> wage policy and
> > gave
> > their
> > workers fair wages, other corporations might
> follow their lead.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Justin Salisbury <PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu
> > To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun
> > 2012
> > 23:19:15 +0000
> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
> >
> > One more note: I think that local business
> decision-makers
> > within
> > Goodwill
> > Industries would be educated/led to philosophical
> change simply
> > by the
> > fact
> > that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries
> adopted a
> > universal
> > fair
> > wage policy (if they did), so that would help
> with the
> > education, too.
> >
> > Justin M. Salisbury
> > Class of 2012
> > B.A. in Mathematics
> > East Carolina University
> > president at alumni.ecu.edu
> >
> > 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful,
> committed
> > citizens
> > can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only
> thing that ever
> > has.?
> > 뾏ARGARET MEAD
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Justin Salisbury
> > Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM
> > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > Subject: Goodwill Boycott
> >
> > Arielle, Gabe, and all:
> >
> > I like the point that you've made about the
> decentralized wage
> > policies
> > and
> > rewarding good locations, but do you think that
> perhaps a
> > benefit to
> > boycotting universally would be a possibility
> that Goodwill
> > Industries
> > would create a centralized
> > (universal) policy that all locations must pay
> their workers
> > fair wages?
> >
> > I feel like the end result that we want is for
> Goodwill
> > Industries to
> > adopt
> > a universal standard of paying all workers fair
> wages, and the
> > approach
> > that you all have mentioned seems to me to
> address the decisions
> > in
> > individual locations. I do understand the
> point of leading
> > local
> > business
> > leaders to undergo philosophical change and
> choose to pay their
> > workers
> > fair wages, but which item is the top priority:
> education of
> > individuals
> > or
> >
> > achievement of fair
> wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I
> > want to hear opinions on it.
> >
> > Justin
> >
> > Justin M. Salisbury
> > Class of 2012
> > B.A. in Mathematics
> > East Carolina University
> > president at alumni.ecu.edu
> >
> > 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful,
> committed
> > citizens
> > can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only
> thing that ever
> > has.?
> > 뾏ARGARET MEAD
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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> > r%40gmail.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
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