[nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
Ashley Bramlett
bookwormahb at earthlink.net
Sun Jun 10 20:49:41 UTC 2012
All,
There are some good things about schools for the blind. IMO we cannot
generalize as quality varies from school to school.
I think a huge factor in the lack of quality of them is money and money. In
fact some are shut down with budget cuts.
So, be careful about saying all are bad. Change subject lines too.
-----Original Message-----
From: Joshua Lester
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 12:46 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
Sophie!
You don't know how bad schools for the blind are!
Good grief!
When I attended the Jumpstart program, at Arkansas School for the
Blind, I was sad to see kids my age, who should've graduated from high
school, who had straight A's, be held back!
I asked around, and the oldest graduates from the school, in 2007, was
25 years old!
That's what one former student told me.
Sad!
Blessings, Joshua
On 6/10/12, Sophie Trist <sweetpeareader at gmail.com> wrote:
> I was very fortunate to have a good TVI for most of my life, but
> when Hurricane Katrina hit, I was forced to leave home and attend
> a school for the blind. I was shocked at how horrible it was. On
> my first day there, I was taken to a VI class and asked to read a
> braille book so that they could evaluate my skills. Within five
> minutes, they sent me right back to class. The TVI's there had
> nothing new to teach me. I was in a third/fourth-grade class, and
> the work was first-grade level. This boils down to we need better
> TVI's and more of them.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2012 02:11:25 -0500
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>
> Wow!
> You're right!
> I didn't have a real TVI, for 6/12th grade.
> My TVI, (So called,) was a special Ed teacher, who ended up
> getting
> trained as a TVI.
> If she wasn't there to help me, guess where I was forced to go!
> Yup!
> Special Ed classes!
> Of course, I enjoyed it, because the instructor knew I didn't
> need to
> be there, so she allowed me to help her with the kids, that
> actually
> needed the help.
> Blessings, Joshua
>
> On 6/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> Hello,
> I'm sure many people who have talked to me before know what I'm
> going to
> say...
> It's the educational system that many of these problems come
> down to. We
> have teachers coming out of school who are not inspired to
> create a new
> style of teaching. We have teachers who are never taught about
> disabled
> students. We have blind students who are never taught how to ask
> for
> accommodations. We have parents who think being blind is bad!
> Honestly, if I could have redone my education as a sighted
> person, I would
> not have done it. Being blind is such an advantage in the United
> States when
> going through school. You get extra time on everything, you get
> leniency on
> all your assignments if you can't finish them on time, you get
> free
> schooling, you get paid to go through school by SSI, you have so
> many
> scholarships you can apply for, you can use the law to fight for
> accessibility with little retribution, you become great friends
> with your
> teachers just because you get to talk to them all the time, you
> are by
> nature a very active participant in your class, you are able to
> read your
> books 1000 times faster than all of the other students combined,
> you're able
> to get tutoring for free, you don't have to feel ashamed for
> taking
> advantage of any of the above benefits because you're disabled
> and that's
> what you're expected to do!
> Also, the expectation of your teachers is rather low and when
> you get 100%
> on all their hardest tests they get all embarrassed, people
> think it's
> amazing that you're getting strait As when it's nothing,
> (Stereotypically)
> blind people are very unsocial so they have lots of extra time
> to do school
> work, you're able to actually edit your teacher's handouts and
> instructions
> because Jaws doesn't miss skipped letters, if you have a problem
> with your
> online test you can blame it on your screen reader crashing the
> web browser,
> state colleges gobble you up if you have ever taken an honors
> class at a
> community college and you have good grades and you've written
> one of those
> inspiring essays, when you write inspiring essays you can get
> the super
> arrogant feeling for a moment and say "That's me in the essay!",
> you're able
> to participate in all kinds of extra activities through agencies
> like Global
> explorers or the Light House, you can participate in summer job
> programs
> like YES1 and YES2 in Washington State, when you go to community
> college or
> state college you're given a guide through the school because
> you need a
> mobility lesson and you have the disability resource person...
> I should probably stop, but you get the idea...
> It's probably because I was homeschooled for the first few years
> of my life
> and did all kinds of super awesome things with my overly amazing
> parents and
> didn't enter public school till 5th grade that I have this view
> of school,
> but I understood that I could learn in public school and it was
> just that
> either the teacher wasn't teaching me or that I wasn't equipped
> with the
> skills or technology that was keeping me from learning.
> There are many other factors in learning, like Gardiner's
> multiple theory
> of intelligences that play a factor in if one learns in school,
> but thank
> goodness I was able to learn that anyone can learn from anyone,
> they just
> need to know how they learn and learn that way!
> I can give examples, but this email is already super long, so
> I'll get off
> education.
> My point is that most blind people aren’t taught about all the
> above things.
> I was super lucky because my parents let me run my IEP meetings
> and my mom
> became a TVI half way through my schooling, but every blind
> person needs to
> know that school can be amazing! It is worth spending 8-12 years
> of your
> life there getting your music degree or dentist degree.
>
> Another factor is that disabled people are fit into even a
> tighter mold of
> what they are to be when disabled people are the most unique of
> anyone.
> Blind people do not belong in special ed classes because they
> don't need
> special ed. Special ed teachers are people who teach extreme
> cases of
> autistic or other mentally disabled people. If a blind person is
> put into
> that environment and they don't need it, they will go insane!
> It's like if
> Stephen Hawking would have been born totally disabled and people
> stuck him
> into special ed just because he can't talk!
> Where would cosmology be?
> Sadly it's those who break out of the mold and assimilate their
> own way into
> sighted culture in order to evade the label of mentally disabled
> that are
> fighting for these rights.
>
> I keep on telling people that if someone is considered weird
> it's not them
> that's weird, it's you who's weird for thinking that they're
> weird. It's
> like you thinking the person in front of you is going through
> time the same
> way you are!
>
> Sadly the world is not reasonable, so we have to shuck reason
> and go for
> emotion. That's why we write all the super inspiring essays and
> that's why
> we have to assimilate into the sighted world.
> Those who end up working in low under minimum wage jobs have
> probably not
> learned how to assimilate enough to pass off as "normal" in the
> sighted
> community, so that's probably why they can't get the entry level
> jobs.
>
> Before someone gives the line about not needing to be anything
> other than
> blind because we are blind, let me just say that most of this
> world likes to
> think they are sighted and normal. Most people like to walk with
> the crowd.
> Those who never learn to walk with the crowd are considered
> weird, those who
> learn how to walk with the crowd then figure out how to rise
> above it are
> considered great.
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Arielle Silverman
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 9:27 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>
> Hi Brandon,
> These are all good points. I like your statement about blind
> people
> who are "nurtured to act like they are mentally disabled" as I
> have
> met a few people who unfortunately seem to fit that description.
> The problem is that there is no objective test to determine what
> a
> person is or is not capable of doing. Even so-called objective
> tests
> like IQ tests are incredibly biased and don't account for
> environmental factors that artificially limit people's abilities
> or
> knowledge, like what is expected of them by parents and
> teachers, or
> what skills they are or are not taught. There is research
> showing that
> when people are expected to behave or perform in a certain way,
> they
> tend to fulfill that expectation (this is called a
> "self-fulfilling
> prophesy; if you're interested in the research, look up
> "Pygmalian
> effect"). So when teachers are randomly told that some kids are
> smarter than others, they tend to treat those "smart" kids
> differently
> without even realizing it and eventually the "smart" kids end up
> performing better than the other kids. The reverse pattern too
> often
> happens with disabilities. People have so many assumptions about
> how
> disabilities limit potential, and people in authority can act in
> ways
> that make those assumptions come true.
> I also agree that people with disabilities would be much more
> productive in sheltered jobs if they did work that was
> intrinsically
> interesting to them and if the work was in a field they were
> actually
> good at. It is common knowledge that people of all ages and
> mental
> abilities will do a better job at any task if they find the task
> enjoyable and motivating. Too often, sheltered jobs are simply
> too
> boring to really engage people. Also, people with disabilities
> have
> their own talents that are rarely utilized in sheltered jobs. I
> have
> figured out that if I were forced to do a sheltered workshop
> job, I
> would probably be the one losing them money if they paid me at
> minimum
> wage, because I have never been good at making stuff with my
> hands or
> using machines. Not only would I be bored to tears, but I just
> wouldn't be good at it. I am much better at writing and thinking
> and
> doing math, so I hope that society will let me use those skills
> instead of forcing me to do work I'm not skilled at.
> Regarding your comment about unemployment among the blind, it is
> true
> that many fields are accessible to the blind these days, yet the
> unemployment rate is still staggering. There are many reasons
> for
> unemployment among the blind. I think one reason is that
> employers
> want to hire applicants with relevant experience, and in many
> fields,
> the entry-level position that people get at first to gain
> experience
> isn't accessible to the blind. This might not be true with
> programming, but in some fields it is really hard to get your
> foot in
> the door even if it's easier to work at higher levels. For
> example,
> before becoming a teacher, you need to do student teaching,
> which
> means you are working under someone else who might not use
> accessible
> materials or who will doubt your ability to do the job. Without
> experience, it's harder to allay people's initial discriminatory
> doubts and fears about hiring a blind person. Also, even within
> an
> accessible field, individual employers might use materials that
> aren't
> accessible to the blind. So even though programming is very
> accessible, if some employers require you to use languages or
> scripts
> that aren't accessible, this will limit job options.
> Arielle
>
> On 6/9/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> Hello,
> It's a tricky situation. We can't really say what it's like
> being mentally
> disabled and it's hard to say what mentally disabled can or can
> not do. We
> also can't tell if the blind who are nurtured to act like
> mentally
> disabled
> people really are mentally disabled.
> *That's a mouthful!*
> I am of the opinion that mentally disabled people are way under
> employed
> and
> jobs like Goodwill are completely the wrong job for many of
> them. But I'm
> not a professional and I can only say from personal experience
> that many
> mentally disabled people can do what they want quite well and
> often it's
> because they are babied and misunderstood that they are
> pressured into
> doing jobs they aren’t good at.
>
> I do wonder the need of blind adults to be working at good will
> in the
> first
> place though when it's not that hard learning programming and
> it's pretty
> easy to get reeducated for free in the United States as a blind
> person. If
> your career isn't working out, I don't see why one wouldn't just
> take a
> class at their community college and change their job. I believe
> SSI is
> for
> college students and those fresh out of college, or for a back
> up when
> work
> isn't coming. I am still a student, but I know I have for sure
> jobs if I
> go
> into programming or being a TVI. So other than the moral
> issues, I'm not
> sure why capable blind people are working at goodwill.
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Arielle Silverman
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 8:32 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>
> Hi all,
> I don't shop at Goodwill either, but I was regularly donating
> items
> like used clothes to Goodwill, and my parents do as well. A
> customer
> boycott might not matter much but a donor boycott would probably
> hurt
> them considerably. I have to say I found Justin's arguments very
> persuasive. I just hope that if we boycott all branches
> nationally, we
> make it very clear that what we want is a change to national
> policy.
> Interestingly, I used to rent an apartment from a woman (I'll
> call her
> S) whose full-time job was to be a live-in caretaker for a woman
> with
> Down's syndrome and significant mental retardation (I'll call
> her C).
> Since I rented the apartment right below theirs, I got to know
> both S
> and C quite well and learned a bit about C's situation.
> Apparently C
> is employed by a program for people with intellectual
> disabilities
> similar to Goodwill's but it wasn't Goodwill itself. I think S.
> told
> me that C. was paid around $1 per hour for doing an extremely
> menial
> job although I don't remember what that job was exactly.
> However, I
> don't think C. had any living expenses at all because she lived
> rent-free with S. She may have been helping pay for groceries.
> The
> program she was in was very custodial and I'm not sure she even
> had
> independent access to the money she earned at her job.
> I don't think I can really judge whether people with
> disabilities like
> C.'s are capable of living without custodial care or spending
> their
> own money, any more than a deaf person should be able to judge
> how
> independent blind people can be. I do suspect that people like
> C.
> would achieve more if they were held to higher expectations, and
> higher expectations should come with higher wages and more
> freedom.
> I definitely believe that anyone who lives independently should
> be
> paid at least the minimum wage, and I think it is clear that
> blindness
> by itself doesn't prevent anyone from living independently.
> However, I
> do wonder if minimum wage is necessary for those who don't have
> living
> expenses or who don't manage their own finances because they are
> living in custodial care situations. I'm sure there are people
> in
> these custodial arrangements who shouldn't be there, but that
> almost
> sounds like a separate issue. These people aren't in custodial
> care
> because they are earning low wages, but because their parents or
> others acting on their behalf have decided they don't have the
> intellect or the maturity to make adult decisions. Again, this
> should
> never be said about people who are just blind without other
> disabilities. As far as intellectual disabilities go, in some
> cases
> this judgment might be right; in other cases it might be wrong.
> But if
> someone is clearly not able to manage adult expenses, should
> they be
> paid adult wages? It's tricky.
> I can also understand the argument that if noncompetitive
> employment
> programs for the disabled raise wages, they can't hire as many
> workers. This ultimately means that instead of a bunch of
> disabled
> workers earning crappy wages, some will earn a decent wage and
> others
> will earn nothing. Of course, we hope that the reduction in
> noncompetitive jobs might bring more disabled workers into the
> competitive job market. A mandatory minimum wage would also
> force
> companies with high salaries at the top to redistribute their
> payscale
> more fairly.
> Arielle
>
> On 6/9/12, Chris Nusbaum <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree, Humberto, and I hope what you say comes true. However,
> there's a
> lot of change we need to make in order for this to happen. Even
> if we
> overturn the subminimum wage provision, and I hope and pray that
> we do,
> we
> can't possibly tell employers that they have to hire people with
> disabilities. So, we need to change the beliefs and the
> attidudes of
> society, including employers, about the competence of blind
> people. I
> know,
> it's a big job, but I think we've made a lot of progress so far.
>
> Just my thoughts,
>
> Chris
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Humberto Avila
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 10:10 PM
> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>
> Hello, I agree with this as well. I hope that by doing the
> boycott to
> this
> company, in the national / universal spectrum, we are able to
> put
> pressure
> on employers, and on other companies and corporations, as well
> as
> organizations who pay subminimum wages. We could eventually end
> up
> spreading the word of stopping companies to pay subminimum wages
> and they
> could even see that people with disabilities and including blind
> people
> are
> capable of being paid like the sighted population. If potential
> employers
> see this change happening, those employers will have a light
> bulb lit up,
> and will be able to see that blind people are competent, then
> will hire
> them. Then we can make more change. I see this happening, from
> my
> personal
> opinion. Let's hope that the NFB does this.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Sophie Trist
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 6:57 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>
> Justin,
>
> I agree with the points you've made. If Goodwill was boycotted
> universally,
> it would put more pressure on them to pay their disabled workers
> fair
> wages. Plus, if Goodwill developed a centralized wage policy and
> gave
> their
> workers fair wages, other corporations might follow their lead.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Justin Salisbury <PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu.edu
> To: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org Date sent: Sat, 9 Jun
> 2012
> 23:19:15 +0000
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Goodwill Boycott
>
> One more note: I think that local business decision-makers
> within
> Goodwill
> Industries would be educated/led to philosophical change simply
> by the
> fact
> that the corporate leaders of Goodwill Industries adopted a
> universal
> fair
> wage policy (if they did), so that would help with the
> education, too.
>
> Justin M. Salisbury
> Class of 2012
> B.A. in Mathematics
> East Carolina University
> president at alumni.ecu.edu
>
> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens
> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever
> has.?
> 뾏ARGARET MEAD
> ________________________________________
> From: Justin Salisbury
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 7:13 PM
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Goodwill Boycott
>
> Arielle, Gabe, and all:
>
> I like the point that you've made about the decentralized wage
> policies
> and
> rewarding good locations, but do you think that perhaps a
> benefit to
> boycotting universally would be a possibility that Goodwill
> Industries
> would create a centralized
> (universal) policy that all locations must pay their workers
> fair wages?
>
> I feel like the end result that we want is for Goodwill
> Industries to
> adopt
> a universal standard of paying all workers fair wages, and the
> approach
> that you all have mentioned seems to me to address the decisions
> in
> individual locations. I do understand the point of leading
> local
> business
> leaders to undergo philosophical change and choose to pay their
> workers
> fair wages, but which item is the top priority: education of
> individuals
> or
>
> achievement of fair wages? That's not a rhetorical question; I
> want to hear opinions on it.
>
> Justin
>
> Justin M. Salisbury
> Class of 2012
> B.A. in Mathematics
> East Carolina University
> president at alumni.ecu.edu
>
> 밡ever doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens
> can change the world; indeed, it뭩 the only thing that ever
> has.?
> 뾏ARGARET MEAD
>
>
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