[nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sighted societyatsocial gatherings

Beth thebluesisloose at gmail.com
Sat Sep 15 05:32:37 UTC 2012


Made some sense to me, Arielle.  I agree.  There are plenty of 
people that are labeled "weird", as I was one of them.  My mother 
repeatedly beat me on the head for moving it, screamed at me for 
moving the head back and forth, and threatened violence for 
talking out loud to either myself and people she didn't like.  If 
a subject matter was not pleasing to my parents, they'd 
rigorously criticize me for talking about such things as my love 
life, certain elements of school, etc., and then there were the 
things they didn't like altogether.  My bf thinks I'm making this 
up, but when I was four, I was told that princesses weren't real 
and I would never be one.  Well, little girls like to pretend, 
and I was being a simple little girl, but my mother wanted a 
woman out of me before I was ready for that.  Jason thinks the 
emotional abuse that took place was all stories, but it's not.  
Four-year-old girls play dress up, which is a social norm.  Is it 
not?  Rhetorical question number one.  Number two: just because a 
parent is sitting there picking apart your conversation about a 
certain guy you like to a relative, does that mean you have to 
abide by their rules for talking to relatives?  You can't talk 
about your sweetheart to your family, says my mom or dad.  They 
never knew the NFB philosophy or CCB.  I left them because of all 
the fights over something they did that was totally wrong and 
inconsiderate, and the way Florida VR wanted to play games with 
my life.  When I say my mother threatened violence against my 
head wagging or subject matter infractions, she would hit me hard 
for doing so and cause a load of pain.  She would threaten to do 
it again if I was caught moving it around.  She would often 
threaten to put a sign around my neck saying "Keep your head 
still."  That to me was pure hell.  A for the subject matters, 
grounding or certain itemss taken away such as stereos or 
Internet privilege even when I was over eighteen.
Beth

 ----- Original Message -----
From: Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 22:26:52 -0600
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with 
sighted societyatsocial gatherings

Hi all,
I think it is absolutely critical to point out that "sighted 
society"
is not a uniform group of people who all share identical norms,
attitudes and actions. If it were, there would be no wars, no
religious or political differences, no unique languages, 
cultures,
customs, etc. Rather, "society" as a whole is divided into many
subgroups that all carry different norms. A few norms, like not
killing other people, are near-universal, but most customs 
relating to
dress, mannerisms, speech, nonverbal communication, etc. differ
between cultures and sometimes between subgroups within a culture
(i.e. people dress differently in San Francisco  than they do in
Washington, D.C. and college students dress differently from 
lawyers
etc.) It is impossible to teach blind people a universal set of
nonverbal behaviors to adopt even if we wanted to. And, I believe 
that
blind people should have just as much right as sighted people to 
make
informed choices about what kinds of norms to follow or not 
follow,
just as women can choose whether to be stay-at-home mothers or to 
work
even if being a working woman is not yet "the norm". Of course, 
there
are consequences for failing to "blend in"  and look like 
everybody
else, but sometimes there are things to be gained by doing this, 
or
"blending in" is simply too difficult. As responsible adults we 
need
to weigh the costs and benefits of following the norms for 
specific
situations. For example, if I am interviewing for a job, it is
probably to my advantage to purchase and wear a suit. However, if 
I am
doing something less high-stakes, and money is tight, I can 
probably
get away with just wearing some nice slacks or a dress, even if 
most
of the other people there are wearing suits.
I do think it is useful to give blind students information about 
how
they can learn about the norms present in their particular 
culture,
i.e. how to learn about the dress code for a new job, where to 
read
about current fashions, etc. It is also good to provide a forum 
for
students to ask questions if they wish to learn more about how to
blend in in specific situations. However, I do not think that
preaching to blind students about the importance of blending in 
does
much good. The consequences of not blending in are self-evident, 
and
again, blind students are responsible young adults who need to 
come to
these decisions for ourselves.
Finally, I need to once again speak up on behalf of those blind 
folks
who are labeled "weird" or "socially unskilled" by blind and 
sighted
alike. As a community of blind people with common experiences, we 
need
to stop passing judgment or trying to give these folks social
makeovers, and instead acknowledge that all of us are human 
beings
with different levels of skill and ability in different areas. I
always find myself advocating for this often-misunderstood subset 
of
the blind community because in some ways I am part of that group. 
I
spent much of my childhood being labeled as socially inadequate,
struggled with a few different "blindisms" and today still deal 
with
lifelong gait and posture issues, and challenges with attempting 
eye
contact. Because of these things some may say I look more "blind" 
than
the average successful blind person, yet I am a successful 
graduate
student, financially self-sufficient and in a committed 
relationship.
In my own case I am very very aware of the importance of blending 
in
and of how "different" I look at times, because this was 
emphasized to
me over and over again as a child. My issues are complicated and 
I
have still not determined if the problems I have with posture and
balance are due to an over-protective home environment when I was
learning to walk, an as-yet-undiagnosed balance/coordination
impairment, or both. My problem with eye contact is related to 
the
fact my vision is such that I feel like I am looking at someone's 
face
when I am actually looking slightly down (and if I actually look 
up
toward their face I see nothing). I can correct for this but it 
takes
a ton of effort and focus for me to do so, so most of the time I 
end
up looking down at someone instead of up at them even though I 
have
been told hundreds of times how important it is  to attempt eye
contact. Some others in our community have additional 
disabilities or
mental conditions that make "blending in" by our definition
practically impossible, yet these folks still have a lot to offer 
in
their own way. My point is that so-called social skill deficits 
like
these are often due to a lot more than just not knowing any 
better or
being mentally deficient. It is important to recognize that all
members of our community have strengths and abilities of their 
own,
even if they seem weak or deficient or even "weird" to us, and we
should do what we can to empower these people instead of using 
them as
examples of what's wrong with our community as a whole. I hope 
that
made some sense.
Best,
Arielle

On 9/14/12, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
 I've tried to avoid getting into this thread, but here goes:
 1. Blind people acting like sighted people scares the crap out 
of
 me because it just does for some reason.
 2. Girls' conformity rules are terrible: for instance, girls
 shouldn't be scientists.  What does that statement say about us
 girls?  Girls should be married to men with decent jobs.  No, I
 will not marry a man with any job so I can be taken care of, and
 this isn't the friggin' 1800's.  Girls and women can take care 
of
 themselves, and they can work and support families.  Jason, my
 current bf, does not work and can't do what society says, be a
 man and work and get paid for the woman.  Some societies demand
 that all men work and women stay home.  We, Americans though we
 are, still have these demands on blind women.  I as a blind 
woman
 cannot accept conformity or defeat due to womanhood.  Since 
Jason
 can't work and follow society's rules of manhood, it's up to me
 to do it.  Girls should not always do typing, nursing, or
 different "womanly" professions where they get paid less than
 ordinary men.  Jason, due to his disability, does not work.  I,
 due to mental illness, may never work.  I want to work so bad,
 but where?  Goodwill is out of the question.  I'm not working 
for
 nothing or low wages because I'm a woman.  And no way will I
 accept sexual harassment because I have breasts and different
 organs inside me.  I as a blind woman will not accept rules
 saying "You will be taken care of.  You will be a stay-at-home
 wife.  You will be poor."  No way.
 Beth

  ----- Original Message -----
 From: Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com
 To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
 <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
 Date sent: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:37:00 -0600
 Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
 sighted societyat social gatherings

 Chris wrote,
 Therefore, it is important that we know the unwritten rules 
which
 our sighted society has made.  If we don't know them and follow
 them, what does that say about us as blind people? It says we 
are
 weird, different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.

 Alternatively, perhaps it says that those rules are not natural,
 that they are the product of sighted people simply aping one
 another, and that they are arbitrary. I believe that such
 unwritten rules often needlessly cause huge amounts of anxiety,
 self-loathing, and anguish.

 We had a similar discussion on this list some time ago,
 particularly around the subject of so called "blindisms, and I
 put that term in quotes as a way of acknowledging that it is
 pejorative. I'm sure it could be found on line by anyone who is
 interested.

 Personally, I would rather live in a world where blind people 
are
 accepted and respected not simply to the extent that they can
 look and act like sighted people, but on the grounds that they
 are human beings possessing dignity and as equally worthy of
 respect as sighted people. The message shouldn't be, "hey, we 
can
 follow your rules, so you should accept us". Instead, the 
message
 should be, "we, like you, have many talents and weaknesses, feel
 pleasure and pain, reach our full potential through the 
formation
 of deep and meaningful relationships with other human beings, 
and
 your failure to treat us with respect and as equals is unfair,
 discriminatory, and immoral", to borrow from Mr. Lewis.

 By the way, I think this goes well beyond blind people fitting
 into sighted society. We are constantly policing one another's
 behaviour. Probably one of the more obvious examples of this has
 to do with gender. There are hundreds if not thousands of mostly
 unspoken rules about what makes a man a man and how real men
 ought to behave, and there are twice as many concerning women.
 These rules are enforced in subtle but effective ways, and the
 result is often a great deal of suffering for anyone who cannot,
 or chooses not to, conform. These gender rules are just as
 arbitrary as those around sighted/blind behaviour, and the 
effort
 similarly should be to relax and remove such rules, not to more
 explicitly and fervently teach boys and girls the so called 
right
 way to act.

 This is of course easier said than done, and failing to conform
 does unfortunately often result in suffering, such as missed
 social, volunteer, and employment opportunities. So I don't 
judge
 or condemn anyone who makes a serious effort to learn the
 unwritten rules of sighted society, just as I don't judge 
someone
 who wants to spend all of his or her time reading medical
 journals and desperately praying for a cure. It's hard being
 blind in the particular society in which we live, and conforming
 can make things a little bit easier. But I still think we should
 work more on changing attitudes and less on teaching blind 
people
 how to look and act like sighted people.

 Regards,

 Marc
 On 2012-09-14, at 3:04 PM, Chris Nusbaum
 <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:

  Hi Brandon and all,

  I'm taking the liberty here to change the subject of this
 thread, as if we're going to discuss the topic which Brandon has
 brought up in his post, I think it would prevent confusion if we
 changed the subject to reflect the actual topic of Brandon's
 message.

  Brandon, your idea about the NFB conducting some kind of
 instructional seminar or workshop on social norms and how we can
 "fit in" with the sighted public is a great one! I think you
 should talk with the NFB leadership about this! I believe NOPBC
 (the parents division) has touched on this topic in their
 seminars at conventions.  One of the topics at the parents
 seminar at the Maryland state convention is almost always social
 skills, especially what sighted society has deemed socially
 acceptable and how we as blind people can fit in at social
 gatherings, conforming as best we can to the "norms" of society.
 I believe this is arguably more important for blind students, as
 we are often in social gatherings (or want to be in them) at our
 schools, with our friends, or in our communities.  Therefore, it
 is important  that we know the unwritten rules which our sighted
 society has made.  If we don't know them and follow them, what
 does that say about us as blind people? It says we are weird,
 different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.  These are the
 very adjectives we in the Federation have been working to cut 
out
 from the vocabulary of the public when in the context of
 blindness and blind people.  In other words, these are the very
 things we don't want sighted people thinking about us.  If this
 is how sighted people perceive us, then it puts our ability to
 get a job, volunteer in our community, and become first-class
 citizens at risk.  So, I think this would be a great thing for
 the NFB to do, and one which I'm kind of surprised we're not
 doing already.  Also, since this is an important topic for blind
 students, perhaps "social skills and norms" could be the topic 
of
 a future NABS membership call.

  Just my thoughts,

  Chris

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
  To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
 <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
  Date sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:15:16 -0700
  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health

  Hello,
  We aren't promoting sex among students, we are promoting safe
 sex.  There is
  a huge difference.  If the student division is the only one 
with
 some
  practical sense about sexual activities, I'm a little scared...
 :)
  I do agree though, sex, dating and excepted socializing among a
 sighted
  community is a very big topic that is often times ignored by 
the
 blind
  community.
  I have been told by sighted TVIs that many blind folks (youth 
or
 not) have
  some very strange mannerisms and beliefs that are totally
 against the grain
  of sighted society.  My mom in particular, who is a TVI, has
 suggested that
  the NFB should really give some instruction on how the sighted
 world thinks.
  Otherwise what will happen (and what has happened) is the world
 looks at a
  gathering of blind people and cringes because they are so 
weird.
 or a
  sighted girl sees a blind guy and thinks she wants to talk to
 him and when
  she is about to sit down and say hi, the guy does something
 really weird and
  she turns around and walks a mile away.
  This is a little different than the deal with the condoms, but
 both sexual
  health and social issues are topics that are very much in need
 of attention
  among blind individuals, and students in particular.
  I feel strongly that having some active workshops on this that
 aren't meant
  to be uncomfortable, but still deal with the taboo problems
 would greatly
  improve convention.
  Thank you,

  Brandon Keith Biggs
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Arielle Silverman
  Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:18 PM
  To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health

  Hi all,
  I have joked in the past about how NABS should sell Brailled
 Whozit
  condoms at convention! Kidding aside, though, there are 
probably
 some
  NFB leaders with more conservative leanings, who might feel 
that
 NABS
  selling condoms at convention would be promoting sexual 
activity
 among
  young or unmarried blind students.  I don't agree with that
 position,
  but some people do and since anything NABS does is, by
 extension, an
  NFB-sanctioned event, we would need to balance the benefits of
  providing condoms against possibly upsetting the NFB leadership
 or
  bringing on an unwanted political debate.
  I would be more likely to support a NABS breakout session, at
  Washington Seminar or elsewhere, about sexuality in general, 
and
  perhaps include an opportunity to try putting a condom on the
  proverbial banana or some such.  When I was 15, I went to a
 diversity
  camp (for sighted teens) and there was a sexuality workshop
 available
  as one of several choices.  They passed around condoms and in
 fact,
  this was the first time I actually felt one.  A general 
workshop
 about
  sex, dating and etiquette, etc.  might be worth having.
  Arielle

  On 9/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
 wrote:
  Hello,
  This would be an awesome idea! Not only because many people 
have
 never
  seen

  a condom, so they could finger the packages with labels without
 having to
  be

  embarrassed, but when I was at the hotel I didn't run into any
 condoms in
  the store.  Granted I wasn't looking for them, but I was
 browsing...
  Condoms,

  lube and Dental Dams, all labeled in Braille! We would also
 probably need
  to

  provide guides for people on how to find the right way to put 
on
 a condom
  or

  use a dental dam.
  Another thing I didn't see at the NABS table is hot serial.  
The
 packing
  guide in the nabs newsletter  said to pack a ton of things and 
I
 for one
  don't keep hot serial in the house and I don't shop at places
 that sell
  hot

  serial, so wasn't able to grab a box.  But I would have loved 
to
 buy a box
  for even $10 or more, the breakfasts there were $10 alone...
 (Then of
  course

  we could sell bole and spoon packs for the poor folks who 
didn't
 bring
  their

  own utensil's).
  Thanks,

  Brandon Keith Biggs
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Anmol Bhatia
  Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:28 AM
  To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health


  You would be a good place to sell and buy condoms? At the NFB
  convention...

  Perhaps Nabs should sell condoms at the NABS table.  We can 
even
 braille
  them

  so the perso can know what kind of condoms they have.  lol

  Anmol

  I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me 
sad.
 Perhaps
  there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague,
 like a breeze
  among flowers.
  Hellen Keller


  --- On Sun, 9/9/12, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
 wrote:

  From: Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
  To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
  <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>, "National Association of Blind Students
 mailing
  list"

  <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
  Date: Sunday, September 9, 2012, 10:54 PM
  Hi, Brandon,

  I went into a place in Denver to  buy a dildo yes, on
  the bigger, ribbed side to use in the old fashioned bath tub
  I had at the time, to get myself off with the faucet.
  Traditionally, I need something in my ass, to cum.  If I
  remember, the folks in their wer very cool, look at the
  blind girl going to by herself a dildo! Don't worry! If
  you're relaxed, and cool about what you're doing so will be
  the bookstore, personnel.  Let us know how goes it,
  okay?  At 04:52 PM 9/8/2012, SA Mobile wrote:
  Those are the best places to get stuff as the staff are
  professional and are trained to make customers feel at ease.
  Just make sure the shop is of good repute.

  Respectfully,
  Jedi

  Sent from my iPhone

  On 08/09/2012, at 12:36 PM, "Brandon Keith Biggs"
  <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
  wrote:

  Hello,
  Thank goodness my father was a nurse and when I
  turned 18, he said addio to being in with me at the doctor.
  I do find it amusing though that some doctors are actually
  really uncomfortable touching me because I'm blind...  That
  only happened after my dad started leaving the room.
  Thank you Arielle for those websites.  I don't feel
  that condoms are something I want to buy from a website I've
  never heard of before unless someone I know has gotten or
  knows that site is trust worthy.
  I was told that flavored condoms were only to be
  used in oral intercourse.  The same is not for lube I
  presume?
  Also, has anyone ever gone into a sex store? How
  was it as a blind shopper? Even from sighted people I hear
  the experience is often not pleasant.
  Thanks,

  Brandon Keith Biggs
  -----Original Message----- From: Arielle
  Silverman
  Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2012 10:00 AM
  To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
  Subject: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health

  Hi all,
  I know the recent discussions about sex and dating
  are kind of in a
  gray area as to whether or not they're on-topic
  for this list, since
  most of the issues Koby brought up are not really
  unique to blindness.
  So if the moderators or Dave feel this is getting
  too far afield, I
  will happily respect your judgment.  However, I
  also think that
  Brandon's question about where to get condoms is a
  legitimate one and
  that there might be other blind people out here,
  including teenagers,
  who have similar concerns about how to get
  condoms, birth control or
  sexual health information without a lot of
  awkwardness or
  embarrassment.  It can be particularly difficult if
  you have to depend
  on someone else (especially parents) for
  transportation which can make
  going to a clinic or drugstore difficult.
  There are a few places to buy condoms online,
  including
  www.condomania.com
  www.undercovercondoms.com
  and
  www.condomdepot.com
  Believe it or not, they also have some condom
  choices at
  www.amazon.com
  If you go to your health center on campus for any
  reason, it shouldn't
  be a problem  to ask a doctor or nurse there
  about condoms.
  I cannot answer the questions about when to begin
  having sex with a
  partner because that is a highly individual
  decision.  However, I feel
  it important that anyone who is considering having
  sex for the first
  time ensure you understand what all of your
  options are for preventing
  pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases, the
  advantages and
  disadvantages of each option, and the proper way
  to use condoms  and
  birth control.  There are  a couple different
  websites with this kind
  of information:
  www.plannedparenthood.org
  (includes live chat with a sexual health educator)
  or
  www.scarleteen.com
  This issue is particularly close to my heart at
  the moment because my
  boyfriend's sister just had an unintended
  pregnancy at a very
  inopportune time (while still in college, with a
  guy she had only
  known for a few months) and was apparently taking
  birth control pills,
  but had not been taking them consistently.  While I
  don't believe that
  sex  should be feared, it is something that
  takes some responsibility,
  planning and foresight to ensure it is enjoyable
  while minimizing the
  risks.  Also, while I won't go into details here,
  there are other ways
  to be physically intimate with someone that are
  less risky, which
  these online forums will talk about.
  I also want to bring up  an issue that is
  somewhat relevant to sexual
  health, which I experienced and I think that some
  of you might also be
  struggling with.  This is the issue of having your
  parents drive you to
  doctors' appointments and then having them want to
  sit in or even
  participate in your appointments.  Since I attended
  college in my home
  city, my mother always wanted to drive me to my
  doctors' appointments
  and would then want to come in and chat with the
  doctor while he/she
  was examining me.  This was partly because my
  parents and I saw many of
  the same doctors and she often thought it was a
  good opportunity to
  ask the doctor a quick question about her own
  health while she was
  there, or because she was curious to see what the
  doctor recommended
  to me about a particular issue.  I eventually
  realized that while it
  wasn't ill-intentioned, it was a violation of my
  privacy as an adult
  patient and I asked her to wait in the waiting
  room while I was seeing
  the doctor.  I didn't actually take this stand
  until I was 21 and in
  hindsight I wish I had done  it much earlier.
  By the time you are 18,
  unless you have a serious cognitive disability,
  you have a right to
  privacy of your medical information and it is
  important to establish a
  good doctor-patient relationship without a third
  person interfering.
  This is especially true when it comes to sexual
  health and by the time
  you are 18 or even 16, you will want to start
  discussing your sexual
  activities or questions with your doctors without
  your parents being
  around.  You might also want to consider getting a
  driver or even
  taking the bus to medical appointments to avoid
  this problem.
  On a related note, by the time you are in high
  school, you should know
  the names of all medications you take on  a
  regular basis and any
  chronic medical conditions you may have.  If you
  ever have to go to the
  emergency room, this kind  of information may
  be requested of you.
  Best,
  Arielle

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