[nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sightedsocietyatsocial gatherings

Beth thebluesisloose at gmail.com
Sat Sep 15 22:56:27 UTC 2012


Very good and well said, Arielle.  I already have counseling and 
therapy and a diagnosis of bipolar and a boyfriend who makes such 
fun of me and call me a drama queen.  That's what I get for 
trying to be a little girl when I was four.  Life isn't rainbows 
and bunnies I know.  And I'm livingfb proof of it.  Life is NOT 
one big party and it's hell if you look hard enough.  I have 
counseling to deal with my problems, but my benefits are about to 
be suspended because I may have to change counelors or doctors, 
and my food stamps went down.  Idk how to deal with those human 
services people and I go humgry.  All because I can't get a place 
to live, a job, etc.
Beth

 ----- Original Message -----
From: Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 15:10:42 -0600
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with 
sightedsocietyatsocial gatherings

Hi all,
Firstly, Beth and Desiree,  I am truly sorry to hear about the 
things
your parents said or did to you regarding your blindness and
conformity to social norms. Beth, what your parents did is 
totally
unacceptable. Of course there is nothing wrong with discussing 
your
love life or with playing princess games when you were little and
those things don't even have anything to do with your being 
blind. If
you haven't yet, I would suggest getting some counseling to help 
you
cope with these experiences you had as it seems they are still
affecting you today.
Desiree, there is no reason for your parents to tell you that you 
will
 end up "fat and worthless" merely because you are blind. These
statements are not only inaccurate and cruel, but they also can't
possibly do you any good. I hope that by being on this list you 
have
learned what blind people have accomplished and what you can
accomplish in your own life. From your posts here, it is clear 
that
you are intelligent, have good ideas, and care about others. I 
hope
that you will get to know some other blind people a little better 
so
that you can discover the kinds of things that blind people are
capable of achieving. Whether it be at an NFB function, an ACB
function, or just a meeting with another blind person who lives 
near
you, I think that our acquaintances with other blind people are 
the
best defense against the kinds of negative messages about 
blindness
and about ourselves that we all get from society at some point. 
The
best way to discover what you  are good at, and what you enjoy 
doing,
is to just try a few different activities. Please don't base your
beliefs about what you can do on the negative statements of 
people who
don't know anything about blindness and who don't believe in 
blind
people.
Finally, I want to make a general comment. We have been talking a 
lot
about whether we should try to conform to the social norms around 
us.
While that is one way to increase our chances of being accepted, 
it
doesn't always work. Another way to increase our chances of being
accepted is to move to a different community or a different 
situation
whose norms are closer to our own. For some of us that might mean
spending more time with other blind people. For others, it might 
mean
moving to a place that has better public transportation so that 
the
fact we can't drive doesn't interfere with our fitting in as 
much. Or,
it could mean moving to an academic field where our intellectual
abilities matter more than what we are wearing, etc.
I grew up in Scottsdale, AZ, a wealthy suburb where the sighted 
women
around me were very much into fashion and beauty. During myteen 
years
my mother tried to ensure I was accepted by urging (or even 
requiring)
me to dress nicely,  do fancy things with my hair and wear 
makeup. I
also have had bad acne since I was 11, and I was put on several
medications to try to clear it up, but none were very effective. 
There
were also a couple of years during my adolescence where I was 
required
to get expensive facials, which involved painful "extractions" to
attempt to treat my acne. (Sorry to be gross!) While I wanted to 
be
accepted at school by sighted people, I eventually concluded that 
it
wasn't worth spending an hour a day straightening my hair, and
enduring the facials only to have my face break out again a few 
weeks
later. Plus, I was a teen, and didn't like having my mother
micromanage my appearance in these ways. I eventually decided 
that all
sighted people were shallow, superficial jerks who weren't worth 
my
time and effort to try and impress. So out of rebellion, I 
started
letting my hair go crazy whenever I could get away with it, and 
spent
all my time with the few blind friends I had. What I didn't know 
at
the time was that my stereotype of all sighted people as shallow
really only applied to sighted people living in Scottsdale. Once 
I
grew up and got the heck out of Scottsdale, I eventually found a 
few
sighted people who accepted me for who I was, even without the 
facials
and with a low-maintenance haircut. I realize now that I really 
didn't
belong in Scottsdale at all, and blindness had some to do with it
(Scottsdale also has horrible public transportation), but it was 
also
about my personality. However, where I live now, I am able to be
accepted without having to change much of who I am.
I think that some of us who are struggling to be accepted might 
be
happier in a different environment--a different part of the 
country,
attending college or volunteering with peers who share our 
interests,
or even just getting out of our parents' homes. I actually 
believe
that voc rehab agencies should subsidize rent costs so that blind
adults who are still living at home can get their own apartments. 
The
family home can be a very restrictive environment for many blind
adults for a variety of reasons: parents who are still
over-protective, family drama, or even just the fact that the 
house is
far from public transportation options. It is also hard to build
blindness skills while living at home, or to date. If you have 
the
means to move out, I would encourage you to do so, as a step 
toward
building a life of your own design.
I know that the teens on the list may have a lot less flexibility 
as
far as choosing your environment. However, even if you are a teen 
and
cannot move out yet, you can perhaps look around your school for 
clubs
to join with people in them who share your interests and views. 
And I
would encourage you to take every opportunity to get to know 
blind
people, both those your age and those who are older who  can 
mentor
you. Of course blind people don't share everything in common, but 
you
may well find that the confidence you gain from being accepted by
blind people spills over into your encounters with sighted 
people.
Best,
Arielle

On 9/15/12, wmodnl wmodnl <wmodnl at hotmail.com> wrote:
 Good morning all,
 My message here is not exactly blindness related; however, it is 
on a topic
 we are discussing.  That is the topic of posture.  I thought of 
this since
 posture is a issue for us as blind people.
 There is a study here in Boston for working with lower back 
pain.  I bring
 this up because bad back pain from surgical operations.  Many 
back
 conditions, cause one to have bad posture.  I have really bad 
posture since
 I had surgery that has caused me to stand on a slant.
 The study offers treatment for one to have free PT and yoga, 
Reky.
 Wright me off-list for more information.


 Sent from my iPad

 On Sep 15, 2012, at 9:42 AM, "Rania Ismail CMT" 
<raniaismail04 at gmail.com
 wrote:

 I have issues with balance and posture so my yoga instructor is 
working
 on
 that with me. Working with a yoga instructor to correct your 
posture is
 another idea. I am also working on straingthening my muscles in 
yoga.
 Massage can also help by relaxing the muscles and improving 
range of
 motion
 so you can learn how to move and change your posture.
 Rania,

 -----Original Message-----
 From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
 Behalf
 Of Ashley Bramlett
 Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 2:47 AM
 To: Nationstrengthening my muscles in yoga as well. Even getting 
a
 massage
 Association of Blind Students mailing list
 Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with 
sighted
 societyats.. could help ocial gatherings

 Arielle,
 I think a seminar could be held without seeming like preaching.
 I said to Chris that norms differ based on the situation.
 We'd have to be careful though; we do not want participants to 
feel that
 every situation is very scripted. As I said before, social 
gatherings,
 particularly among young people, are relaxed and informal.

 If you did such a seminar the format could be lecture based, 
modeling, and

 question and answer. People could even submit questions 
anonymously for
 the
 discussion part.
 What could be covered are standard rules of etiquette. My dad 
feels that
 blind people are not as polite and in crowds are quick to shove 
each other

 aside, and sadly this is partly true.
 Its not about acting like sighted people, its about being 
courteous and
 blending in.
 You could talk about it briefly and role play situations. Topics 
like
 manners, what to do when you greet a new person,
 how you are supposed to wait in line for many things, clothing 
tips,
 nonverbal communication like gestures, and acceptable ways of 
fidgiting.
 Blindisms are not acceptable, but there are acceptable ways of 
fidgiting
 or
 self stimulation that are.

 We want to come across as approachable and nice people. 
Nonverbal
 communication includes correct posture. I suppose if it's a 
chronic issue,

 one might want to ask a doctor about it to ensure no underlying
 coordination disorder exists. You could also work with a 
physical
 theripist
 if a muscular problem is present preventing you from having 
correct
 posture.

 My guess is a lot of blind people look down as they do not have 
visual
 stimulation to look up and around. Then it's a habit to be bent 
over at
 the
 shoulders which is hard to correct. Another theory I have is 
that blind
 kids

 were sheltered and kept from moving about freely; eventually, 
this affects

 posture because your body adapts to a still position; muscles 
can shorten,

 lose their elasticity, become stiff and disjointed.

 I do pretty good with posture. But, I do struggle with eye 
contact. I have

 some vision and if I try to focus for a long time, my eyes start 
their
 nystagmus fit, meaning they shake involuntarily. Another thing 
is my
 parents

 tell me I look like I'm staring at people; I don't mean too, but 
its
 simply
 that I'm looking around  to see what I can.
 Another thing is while I have stopped rocking since my folks 
worked on
 that
 as I was young, I do it occasionally. I do so involuntarily for 
balance
 probably without knowing I'm doing it. So, its impossible for me 
to stop
 rocking totally; I simply cannot control a behavior I do not 
realize I'm
 doing. If I concentrate on walking upright and still, I won't do 
it. But I

 won't do this most of the time; I simply have too much to think 
about
 rather

 than asking myself, am I walking straight, walking upright, and 
is my head

 still.


 I think its important for us to find out about norms and find 
out where to

 find such information. The seminar should include that. Online 
resources
 about fashion trends and etiquette is an idea; asking people 
around us is

 another, and
 finally magazines would be another. I also wonder if there are 
existing
 videos either for the public, or for us specifically, on this. 
Maybe AFB
 or
 APH would have something, or maybe a video with good 
descriptions exists
 for

 the general audience. I don't know.

 Speaking of nonverbal communication, I'd really like to learn 
gestures.
 Someday, if I take public speaking, I'm going to ask the teacher 
to teach
 me

 this.

 Ashley

 -----Original Message-----
 From: Arielle Silverman
 Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 12:26 AM
 To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
 Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with 
sighted
 societyat

 social gatherings

 Hi all,
 I think it is absolutely critical to point out that "sighted 
society"
 is not a uniform group of people who all share identical norms,
 attitudes and actions. If it were, there would be no wars, no
 religious or political differences, no unique languages, 
cultures,
 customs, etc. Rather, "society" as a whole is divided into many
 subgroups that all carry different norms. A few norms, like not
 killing other people, are near-universal, but most customs 
relating to
 dress, mannerisms, speech, nonverbal communication, etc. differ
 between cultures and sometimes between subgroups within a 
culture
 (i.e. people dress differently in San Francisco  than they do in
 Washington, D.C. and college students dress differently from 
lawyers
 etc.) It is impossible to teach blind people a universal set of
 nonverbal behaviors to adopt even if we wanted to. And, I 
believe that
 blind people should have just as much right as sighted people to 
make
 informed choices about what kinds of norms to follow or not 
follow,
 just as women can choose whether to be stay-at-home mothers or 
to work
 even if being a working woman is not yet "the norm". Of course, 
there
 are consequences for failing to "blend in"  and look like 
everybody
 else, but sometimes there are things to be gained by doing this, 
or
 "blending in" is simply too difficult. As responsible adults we 
need
 to weigh the costs and benefits of following the norms for 
specific
 situations. For example, if I am interviewing for a job, it is
 probably to my advantage to purchase and wear a suit. However, 
if I am
 doing something less high-stakes, and money is tight, I can 
probably
 get away with just wearing some nice slacks or a dress, even if 
most
 of the other people there are wearing suits.
 I do think it is useful to give blind students information about 
how
 they can learn about the norms present in their particular 
culture,
 i.e. how to learn about the dress code for a new job, where to 
read
 about current fashions, etc. It is also good to provide a forum 
for
 students to ask questions if they wish to learn more about how 
to
 blend in in specific situations. However, I do not think that
 preaching to blind students about the importance of blending in 
does
 much good. The consequences of not blending in are self-evident, 
and
 again, blind students are responsible young adults who need to 
come to
 these decisions for ourselves.
 Finally, I need to once again speak up on behalf of those blind 
folks
 who are labeled "weird" or "socially unskilled" by blind and 
sighted
 alike. As a community of blind people with common experiences, 
we need
 to stop passing judgment or trying to give these folks social
 makeovers, and instead acknowledge that all of us are human 
beings
 with different levels of skill and ability in different areas. I
 always find myself advocating for this often-misunderstood 
subset of
 the blind community because in some ways I am part of that 
group. I
 spent much of my childhood being labeled as socially inadequate,
 struggled with a few different "blindisms" and today still deal 
with
 lifelong gait and posture issues, and challenges with attempting 
eye
 contact. Because of these things some may say I look more 
"blind" than
 the average successful blind person, yet I am a successful 
graduate
 student, financially self-sufficient and in a committed 
relationship.
 In my own case I am very very aware of the importance of 
blending in
 and of how "different" I look at times, because this was 
emphasized to
 me over and over again as a child. My issues are complicated and 
I
 have still not determined if the problems I have with posture 
and
 balance are due to an over-protective home environment when I 
was
 learning to walk, an as-yet-undiagnosed balance/coordination
 impairment, or both. My problem with eye contact is related to 
the
 fact my vision is such that I feel like I am looking at 
someone's face
 when I am actually looking slightly down (and if I actually look 
up
 toward their face I see nothing). I can correct for this but it 
takes
 a ton of effort and focus for me to do so, so most of the time I 
end
 up looking down at someone instead of up at them even though I 
have
 been told hundreds of times how important it is  to attempt eye
 contact. Some others in our community have additional 
disabilities or
 mental conditions that make "blending in" by our definition
 practically impossible, yet these folks still have a lot to 
offer in
 their own way. My point is that so-called social skill deficits 
like
 these are often due to a lot more than just not knowing any 
better or
 being mentally deficient. It is important to recognize that all
 members of our community have strengths and abilities of their 
own,
 even if they seem weak or deficient or even "weird" to us, and 
we
 should do what we can to empower these people instead of using 
them as
 examples of what's wrong with our community as a whole. I hope 
that
 made some sense.
 Best,
 Arielle

 On 9/14/12, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
 I've tried to avoid getting into this thread, but here goes:
 1. Blind people acting like sighted people scares the crap out 
of
 me because it just does for some reason.
 2. Girls' conformity rules are terrible: for instance, girls
 shouldn't be scientists.  What does that statement say about us
 girls?  Girls should be married to men with decent jobs.  No, I
 will not marry a man with any job so I can be taken care of, and
 this isn't the friggin' 1800's.  Girls and women can take care 
of
 themselves, and they can work and support families.  Jason, my
 current bf, does not work and can't do what society says, be a
 man and work and get paid for the woman.  Some societies demand
 that all men work and women stay home.  We, Americans though we
 are, still have these demands on blind women.  I as a blind 
woman
 cannot accept conformity or defeat due to womanhood.  Since 
Jason
 can't work and follow society's rules of manhood, it's up to me
 to do it.  Girls should not always do typing, nursing, or
 different "womanly" professions where they get paid less than
 ordinary men.  Jason, due to his disability, does not work.  I,
 due to mental illness, may never work.  I want to work so bad,
 but where?  Goodwill is out of the question.  I'm not working 
for
 nothing or low wages because I'm a woman.  And no way will I
 accept sexual harassment because I have breasts and different
 organs inside me.  I as a blind woman will not accept rules
 saying "You will be taken care of.  You will be a stay-at-home
 wife.  You will be poor."  No way.
 Beth

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com
 To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
 <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
 Date sent: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:37:00 -0600
 Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
 sighted societyat social gatherings

 Chris wrote,
 Therefore, it is important that we know the unwritten rules 
which
 our sighted society has made.  If we don't know them and follow
 them, what does that say about us as blind people? It says we 
are
 weird, different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.

 Alternatively, perhaps it says that those rules are not natural,
 that they are the product of sighted people simply aping one
 another, and that they are arbitrary. I believe that such
 unwritten rules often needlessly cause huge amounts of anxiety,
 self-loathing, and anguish.

 We had a similar discussion on this list some time ago,
 particularly around the subject of so called "blindisms, and I
 put that term in quotes as a way of acknowledging that it is
 pejorative. I'm sure it could be found on line by anyone who is
 interested.

 Personally, I would rather live in a world where blind people 
are
 accepted and respected not simply to the extent that they can
 look and act like sighted people, but on the grounds that they
 are human beings possessing dignity and as equally worthy of
 respect as sighted people. The message shouldn't be, "hey, we 
can
 follow your rules, so you should accept us". Instead, the 
message
 should be, "we, like you, have many talents and weaknesses, feel
 pleasure and pain, reach our full potential through the 
formation
 of deep and meaningful relationships with other human beings, 
and
 your failure to treat us with respect and as equals is unfair,
 discriminatory, and immoral", to borrow from Mr. Lewis.

 By the way, I think this goes well beyond blind people fitting
 into sighted society. We are constantly policing one another's
 behaviour. Probably one of the more obvious examples of this has
 to do with gender. There are hundreds if not thousands of mostly
 unspoken rules about what makes a man a man and how real men
 ought to behave, and there are twice as many concerning women.
 These rules are enforced in subtle but effective ways, and the
 result is often a great deal of suffering for anyone who cannot,
 or chooses not to, conform. These gender rules are just as
 arbitrary as those around sighted/blind behaviour, and the 
effort
 similarly should be to relax and remove such rules, not to more
 explicitly and fervently teach boys and girls the so called 
right
 way to act.

 This is of course easier said than done, and failing to conform
 does unfortunately often result in suffering, such as missed
 social, volunteer, and employment opportunities. So I don't 
judge
 or condemn anyone who makes a serious effort to learn the
 unwritten rules of sighted society, just as I don't judge 
someone
 who wants to spend all of his or her time reading medical
 journals and desperately praying for a cure. It's hard being
 blind in the particular society in which we live, and conforming
 can make things a little bit easier. But I still think we should
 work more on changing attitudes and less on teaching blind 
people
 how to look and act like sighted people.

 Regards,

 Marc
 On 2012-09-14, at 3:04 PM, Chris Nusbaum
 <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:

 Hi Brandon and all,

 I'm taking the liberty here to change the subject of this
 thread, as if we're going to discuss the topic which Brandon has
 brought up in his post, I think it would prevent confusion if we
 changed the subject to reflect the actual topic of Brandon's
 message.

 Brandon, your idea about the NFB conducting some kind of
 instructional seminar or workshop on social norms and how we can
 "fit in" with the sighted public is a great one! I think you
 should talk with the NFB leadership about this! I believe NOPBC
 (the parents division) has touched on this topic in their
 seminars at conventions.  One of the topics at the parents
 seminar at the Maryland state convention is almost always social
 skills, especially what sighted society has deemed socially
 acceptable and how we as blind people can fit in at social
 gatherings, conforming as best we can to the "norms" of society.
 I believe this is arguably more important for blind students, as
 we are often in social gatherings (or want to be in them) at our
 schools, with our friends, or in our communities.  Therefore, it
 is important  that we know the unwritten rules which our sighted
 society has made.  If we don't know them and follow them, what
 does that say about us as blind people? It says we are weird,
 different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.  These are the
 very adjectives we in the Federation have been working to cut 
out
 from the vocabulary of the public when in the context of
 blindness and blind people.  In other words, these are the very
 things we don't want sighted people thinking about us.  If this
 is how sighted people perceive us, then it puts our ability to
 get a job, volunteer in our community, and become first-class
 citizens at risk.  So, I think this would be a great thing for
 the NFB to do, and one which I'm kind of surprised we're not
 doing already.  Also, since this is an important topic for blind
 students, perhaps "social skills and norms" could be the topic 
of
 a future NABS membership call.

 Just my thoughts,

 Chris

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
 To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
 <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
 Date sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:15:16 -0700
 Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health

 Hello,
 We aren't promoting sex among students, we are promoting safe
 sex.  There is
 a huge difference.  If the student division is the only one with
 some
 practical sense about sexual activities, I'm a little scared...
 :)
 I do agree though, sex, dating and excepted socializing among a
 sighted
 community is a very big topic that is often times ignored by the
 blind
 community.
 I have been told by sighted TVIs that many blind folks (youth or
 not) have
 some very strange mannerisms and beliefs that are totally
 against the grain
 of sighted society.  My mom in particular, who is a TVI, has
 suggested that
 the NFB should really give some instruction on how the sighted
 world thinks.
 Otherwise what will happen (and what has happened) is the world
 looks at a
 gathering of blind people and cringes because they are so weird.
 or a
 sighted girl sees a blind guy and thinks she wants to talk to
 him and when
 she is about to sit down and say hi, the guy does something
 really weird and
 she turns around and walks a mile away.
 This is a little different than the deal with the condoms, but
 both sexual
 health and social issues are topics that are very much in need
 of attention
 among blind individuals, and students in particular.
 I feel strongly that having some active workshops on this that
 aren't meant
 to be uncomfortable, but still deal with the taboo problems
 would greatly
 improve convention.
 Thank you,

 Brandon Keith Biggs
 -----Original Message-----
 From: Arielle Silverman
 Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:18 PM
 To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
 Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health

 Hi all,
 I have joked in the past about how NABS should sell Brailled
 Whozit
 condoms at convention! Kidding aside, though, there are probably
 some
 NFB leaders with more conservative leanings, who might feel that
 NABS
 selling condoms at convention would be promoting sexual activity
 among
 young or unmarried blind students.  I don't agree with that
 position,
 but some people do and since anything NABS does is, by
 extension, an
 NFB-sanctioned event, we would need to balance the benefits of
 providing condoms against possibly upsetting the NFB leadership
 or
 bringing on an unwanted political debate.
 I would be more likely to support a NABS breakout session, at
 Washington Seminar or elsewhere, about sexuality in general, and
 perhaps include an opportunity to try putting a condom on the
 proverbial banana or some such.  When I was 15, I went to a
 diversity
 camp (for sighted teens) and there was a sexuality workshop
 available
 as one of several choices.  They passed around condoms and in
 fact,
 this was the first time I actually felt one.  A general workshop
 about
 sex, dating and etiquette, etc.  might be worth having.
 Arielle

 On 9/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
 wrote:
 Hello,
 This would be an awesome idea! Not only because many people have
 never
 seen

 a condom, so they could finger the packages with labels without
 having to
 be

 embarrassed, but when I was at the hotel I didn't run into any
 condoms in
 the store.  Granted I wasn't looking for them, but I was
 browsing...
 Condoms,

 lube and Dental Dams, all labeled in Braille! We would also
 probably need
 to

 provide guides for people on how to find the right way to put on
 a condom
 or

 use a dental dam.
 Another thing I didn't see at the NABS table is hot serial.  The
 packing
 guide in the nabs newsletter  said to pack a ton of things and I
 for one
 don't keep hot serial in the house and I don't shop at places
 that sell
 hot

 serial, so wasn't able to grab a box.  But I would have loved to
 buy a box
 for even $10 or more, the breakfasts there were $10 alone...
 (Then of
 course

 we could sell bole and spoon packs for the poor folks who didn't
 bring
 their

 own utensil's).
 Thanks,

 Brandon Keith Biggs
 -----Original Message-----
 From: Anmol Bhatia
 Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:28 AM
 To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
 Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health


 You would be a good place to sell and buy condoms? At the NFB
 convention...

 Perhaps Nabs should sell condoms at the NABS table.  We can even
 braille
 them

 so the perso can know what kind of condoms they have.  lol

 Anmol

 I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad.
 Perhaps
 there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague,
 like a breeze
 among flowers.
 Hellen Keller


 --- On Sun, 9/9/12, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
 wrote:

 From: Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
 Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
 To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
 <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>, "National Association of Blind Students
 mailing
 list"

 <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
 Date: Sunday, September 9, 2012, 10:54 PM
 Hi, Brandon,

 I went into a place in Denver to  buy a dildo yes, on
 the bigger, ribbed side to use in the old fashioned bath tub
 I had at the time, to get myself off with the faucet.
 Traditionally, I need something in my ass, to cum.  If I
 remember, the folks in their wer very cool, look at the
 blind girl going to by herself a dildo! Don't worry! If
 you're relaxed, and cool about what you're doing so will be
 the bookstore, personnel.  Let us know how goes it,
 okay?  At 04:52 PM 9/8/2012, SA Mobile wrote:
 Those are the best places to get stuff as the staff are
 professional and are trained to make customers feel at ease.
 Just make sure the shop is of good repute.

 Respectfully,
 Jedi

 Sent from my iPhone

 On 08/09/2012, at 12:36 PM, "Brandon Keith Biggs"
 <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
 wrote:

 Hello,
 Thank goodness my father was a nurse and when I
 turned 18, he said addio to being in with me at the doctor.
 I do find it amusing though that some doctors are actually
 really uncomfortable touching me because I'm blind...  That
 only happened after my dad started leaving the room.
 Thank you Arielle for those websites.  I don't feel
 that condoms are something I want to buy from a website I've
 never heard of before unless someone I know has gotten or
 knows that site is trust worthy.
 I was told that flavored condoms were only to be
 used in oral intercourse.  The same is not for lube I
 presume?
 Also, has anyone ever gone into a sex store? How
 was it as a blind shopper? Even from sighted people I hear
 the experience is often not pleasant.
 Thanks,

 Brandon Keith Biggs
 -----Original Message----- From: Arielle
 Silverman
 Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2012 10:00 AM
 To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
 Subject: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health

 Hi all,
 I know the recent discussions about sex and dating
 are kind of in a
 gray area as to whether or not they're on-topic
 for this list, since
 most of the issues Koby brought up are not really
 unique to blindness.
 So if the moderators or Dave feel this is getting
 too far afield, I
 will happily respect your judgment.  However, I
 also think that
 Brandon's question about where to get condoms is a
 legitimate one and
 that there might be other blind people out here,
 including teenagers,
 who have similar concerns about how to get
 condoms, birth control or
 sexual health information without a lot of
 awkwardness or
 embarrassment.  It can be particularly difficult if
 you have to depend
 on someone else (especially parents) for
 transportation which can make
 going to a clinic or drugstore difficult.
 There are a few places to buy condoms online,
 including
 www.condomania.com
 www.undercovercondoms.com
 and
 www.condomdepot.com
 Believe it or not, they also have some condom
 choices at
 www.amazon.com
 If you go to your health center on campus for any
 reason, it shouldn't
 be a problem  to ask a doctor or nurse there
 about condoms.
 I cannot answer the questions about when to begin
 having sex with a
 partner because that is a highly individual
 decision.  However, I feel
 it important that anyone who is considering having
 sex for the first
 time ensure you understand what all of your
 options are for preventing
 pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases, the
 advantages and
 disadvantages of each option, and the proper way
 to use condoms  and
 birth control.  There are  a couple different
 websites with this kind
 of information:
 www.plannedparenthood.org
 (includes live chat with a sexual health educator)
 or
 www.scarleteen.com
 This issue is particularly close to my heart at
 the moment because my
 boyfriend's sister just had an unintended
 pregnancy at a very
 inopportune time (while still in college, with a
 guy she had only
 known for a few months) and was apparently taking
 birth control pills,
 but had not been taking them consistently.  While I
 don't believe that
 sex  should be feared, it is something that
 takes some responsibility,
 planning and foresight to ensure it is enjoyable
 while minimizing the
 risks.  Also, while I won't go into details here,
 there are other ways
 to be physically intimate with someone that are
 less risky, which
 these online forums will talk about.
 I also want to bring up  an issue that is
 somewhat relevant to sexual
 health, which I experienced and I think that some
 of you might also be
 struggling with.  This is the issue of having your
 parents drive you to
 doctors' appointments and then having them want to
 sit in or even
 participate in your appointments.  Since I attended
 college in my home
 city, my mother always wanted to drive me to my
 doctors' appointments
 and would then want to come in and chat with the
 doctor while he/she
 was examining me.  This was partly because my
 parents and I saw many of
 the same doctors and she often thought it was a
 good opportunity to
 ask the doctor a quick question about her own
 health while she was
 there, or because she was curious to see what the
 doctor recommended
 to me about a particular issue.  I eventually
 realized that while it
 wasn't ill-intentioned, it was a violation of my
 privacy as an adult
 patient and I asked her to wait in the waiting
 room while I was seeing
 the doctor.  I didn't actually take this stand
 until I was 21 and in
 hindsight I wish I had done  it much earlier.
 By the time you are 18,
 unless you have a serious cognitive disability,
 you have a right to
 privacy of your medical information and it is
 important to establish a
 good doctor-patient relationship without a third
 person interfering.
 This is especially true when it comes to sexual
 health and by the time
 you are 18 or even 16, you will want to start
 discussing your sexual
 activities or questions with your doctors without
 your parents being
 around.  You might also want to consider getting a
 driver or even
 taking the bus to medical appointments to avoid
 this problem.
 On a related note, by the time you are in high
 school, you should know
 the names of all medications you take on  a
 regular basis and any
 chronic medical conditions you may have.  If you
 ever have to go to the
 emergency room, this kind  of information may
 be requested of you.
 Best,
 Arielle

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