[nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sighted society at social gatherings

[David Andrews]

Well, there are plenty of places where you can do a free list, 
googlegroups.com, yahoogroups.com, freelists.org etc.

Nothing is stopping you.

Dave

At 11:29 PM 9/14/2012, you wrote:
>And this is precisely why I wanted to create a separate list to
>discuss these kinds of issues and more. And, at the risk of offending
>people, I wanted it to be a separate list, separate from the NFB or
>ACB, I wanted it to be the place for every blind person, no matter
>their political or social status or whatever, to discuss how they fit
>in with society. Why does it offend you that blind people, whether
>they be men or women, should try to do their best to interact as
>sighted people do? Are there really specific guidelines we have to
>follow? I really want to understand this. I know as well as anyone
>what struggles we have to go through growing up just to be treated
>like human beings. First, we're blind people, then we're young, and
>the stereotypes surrounding young people of our generation are just as
>crippling as those surrounding being blind. So being dealt both as our
>hand in life is kind of a double whammy. I still struggle when someone
>actually treats me as an equal. I want to run away.
>
>On 9/14/12, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I've tried to avoid getting into this thread, but here goes:
> > 1. Blind people acting like sighted people scares the crap out of
> > me because it just does for some reason.
> > 2. Girls' conformity rules are terrible: for instance, girls
> > shouldn't be scientists.  What does that statement say about us
> > girls?  Girls should be married to men with decent jobs.  No, I
> > will not marry a man with any job so I can be taken care of, and
> > this isn't the friggin' 1800's.  Girls and women can take care of
> > themselves, and they can work and support families.  Jason, my
> > current bf, does not work and can't do what society says, be a
> > man and work and get paid for the woman.  Some societies demand
> > that all men work and women stay home.  We, Americans though we
> > are, still have these demands on blind women.  I as a blind woman
> > cannot accept conformity or defeat due to womanhood.  Since Jason
> > can't work and follow society's rules of manhood, it's up to me
> > to do it.  Girls should not always do typing, nursing, or
> > different "womanly" professions where they get paid less than
> > ordinary men.  Jason, due to his disability, does not work.  I,
> > due to mental illness, may never work.  I want to work so bad,
> > but where?  Goodwill is out of the question.  I'm not working for
> > nothing or low wages because I'm a woman.  And no way will I
> > accept sexual harassment because I have breasts and different
> > organs inside me.  I as a blind woman will not accept rules
> > saying "You will be taken care of.  You will be a stay-at-home
> > wife.  You will be poor."  No way.
> > Beth
> >
> >  ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com
> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > Date sent: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:37:00 -0600
> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
> > sighted societyat social gatherings
> >
> > Chris wrote,
> > Therefore, it is important that we know the unwritten rules which
> > our sighted society has made.  If we don't know them and follow
> > them, what does that say about us as blind people? It says we are
> > weird, different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.
> >
> > Alternatively, perhaps it says that those rules are not natural,
> > that they are the product of sighted people simply aping one
> > another, and that they are arbitrary. I believe that such
> > unwritten rules often needlessly cause huge amounts of anxiety,
> > self-loathing, and anguish.
> >
> > We had a similar discussion on this list some time ago,
> > particularly around the subject of so called "blindisms, and I
> > put that term in quotes as a way of acknowledging that it is
> > pejorative. I'm sure it could be found on line by anyone who is
> > interested.
> >
> > Personally, I would rather live in a world where blind people are
> > accepted and respected not simply to the extent that they can
> > look and act like sighted people, but on the grounds that they
> > are human beings possessing dignity and as equally worthy of
> > respect as sighted people. The message shouldn't be, "hey, we can
> > follow your rules, so you should accept us". Instead, the message
> > should be, "we, like you, have many talents and weaknesses, feel
> > pleasure and pain, reach our full potential through the formation
> > of deep and meaningful relationships with other human beings, and
> > your failure to treat us with respect and as equals is unfair,
> > discriminatory, and immoral", to borrow from Mr. Lewis.
> >
> > By the way, I think this goes well beyond blind people fitting
> > into sighted society. We are constantly policing one another's
> > behaviour. Probably one of the more obvious examples of this has
> > to do with gender. There are hundreds if not thousands of mostly
> > unspoken rules about what makes a man a man and how real men
> > ought to behave, and there are twice as many concerning women.
> > These rules are enforced in subtle but effective ways, and the
> > result is often a great deal of suffering for anyone who cannot,
> > or chooses not to, conform. These gender rules are just as
> > arbitrary as those around sighted/blind behaviour, and the effort
> > similarly should be to relax and remove such rules, not to more
> > explicitly and fervently teach boys and girls the so called right
> > way to act.
> >
> > This is of course easier said than done, and failing to conform
> > does unfortunately often result in suffering, such as missed
> > social, volunteer, and employment opportunities. So I don't judge
> > or condemn anyone who makes a serious effort to learn the
> > unwritten rules of sighted society, just as I don't judge someone
> > who wants to spend all of his or her time reading medical
> > journals and desperately praying for a cure. It's hard being
> > blind in the particular society in which we live, and conforming
> > can make things a little bit easier. But I still think we should
> > work more on changing attitudes and less on teaching blind people
> > how to look and act like sighted people.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Marc
> > On 2012-09-14, at 3:04 PM, Chris Nusbaum
> > <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >  Hi Brandon and all,
> >
> >  I'm taking the liberty here to change the subject of this
> > thread, as if we're going to discuss the topic which Brandon has
> > brought up in his post, I think it would prevent confusion if we
> > changed the subject to reflect the actual topic of Brandon's
> > message.
> >
> >  Brandon, your idea about the NFB conducting some kind of
> > instructional seminar or workshop on social norms and how we can
> > "fit in" with the sighted public is a great one! I think you
> > should talk with the NFB leadership about this! I believe NOPBC
> > (the parents division) has touched on this topic in their
> > seminars at conventions.  One of the topics at the parents
> > seminar at the Maryland state convention is almost always social
> > skills, especially what sighted society has deemed socially
> > acceptable and how we as blind people can fit in at social
> > gatherings, conforming as best we can to the "norms" of society.
> > I believe this is arguably more important for blind students, as
> > we are often in social gatherings (or want to be in them) at our
> > schools, with our friends, or in our communities.  Therefore, it
> > is important  that we know the unwritten rules which our sighted
> > society has made.  If we don't know them and follow them, what
> > does that say about us as blind people? It says we are weird,
> > different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.  These are the
> > very adjectives we in the Federation have been working to cut out
> > from the vocabulary of the public when in the context of
> > blindness and blind people.  In other words, these are the very
> > things we don't want sighted people thinking about us.  If this
> > is how sighted people perceive us, then it puts our ability to
> > get a job, volunteer in our community, and become first-class
> > citizens at risk.  So, I think this would be a great thing for
> > the NFB to do, and one which I'm kind of surprised we're not
> > doing already.  Also, since this is an important topic for blind
> > students, perhaps "social skills and norms" could be the topic of
> > a future NABS membership call.
> >
> >  Just my thoughts,
> >
> >  Chris
> >
> >  ----- Original Message -----
> >  From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> >  To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >  Date sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:15:16 -0700
> >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
> >
> >  Hello,
> >  We aren't promoting sex among students, we are promoting safe
> > sex.  There is
> >  a huge difference.  If the student division is the only one with
> > some
> >  practical sense about sexual activities, I'm a little scared...
> > :)
> >  I do agree though, sex, dating and excepted socializing among a
> > sighted
> >  community is a very big topic that is often times ignored by the
> > blind
> >  community.
> >  I have been told by sighted TVIs that many blind folks (youth or
> > not) have
> >  some very strange mannerisms and beliefs that are totally
> > against the grain
> >  of sighted society.  My mom in particular, who is a TVI, has
> > suggested that
> >  the NFB should really give some instruction on how the sighted
> > world thinks.
> >  Otherwise what will happen (and what has happened) is the world
> > looks at a
> >  gathering of blind people and cringes because they are so weird.
> > or a
> >  sighted girl sees a blind guy and thinks she wants to talk to
> > him and when
> >  she is about to sit down and say hi, the guy does something
> > really weird and
> >  she turns around and walks a mile away.
> >  This is a little different than the deal with the condoms, but
> > both sexual
> >  health and social issues are topics that are very much in need
> > of attention
> >  among blind individuals, and students in particular.
> >  I feel strongly that having some active workshops on this that
> > aren't meant
> >  to be uncomfortable, but still deal with the taboo problems
> > would greatly
> >  improve convention.
> >  Thank you,
> >
> >  Brandon Keith Biggs
> >  -----Original Message-----
> >  From: Arielle Silverman
> >  Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:18 PM
> >  To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
> >
> >  Hi all,
> >  I have joked in the past about how NABS should sell Brailled
> > Whozit
> >  condoms at convention! Kidding aside, though, there are probably
> > some
> >  NFB leaders with more conservative leanings, who might feel that
> > NABS
> >  selling condoms at convention would be promoting sexual activity
> > among
> >  young or unmarried blind students.  I don't agree with that
> > position,
> >  but some people do and since anything NABS does is, by
> > extension, an
> >  NFB-sanctioned event, we would need to balance the benefits of
> >  providing condoms against possibly upsetting the NFB leadership
> > or
> >  bringing on an unwanted political debate.
> >  I would be more likely to support a NABS breakout session, at
> >  Washington Seminar or elsewhere, about sexuality in general, and
> >  perhaps include an opportunity to try putting a condom on the
> >  proverbial banana or some such.  When I was 15, I went to a
> > diversity
> >  camp (for sighted teens) and there was a sexuality workshop
> > available
> >  as one of several choices.  They passed around condoms and in
> > fact,
> >  this was the first time I actually felt one.  A general workshop
> > about
> >  sex, dating and etiquette, etc.  might be worth having.
> >  Arielle
> >
> >  On 9/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >  Hello,
> >  This would be an awesome idea! Not only because many people have
> > never
> >  seen
> >
> >  a condom, so they could finger the packages with labels without
> > having to
> >  be
> >
> >  embarrassed, but when I was at the hotel I didn't run into any
> > condoms in
> >  the store.  Granted I wasn't looking for them, but I was
> > browsing...
> >  Condoms,
> >
> >  lube and Dental Dams, all labeled in Braille! We would also
> > probably need
> >  to
> >
> >  provide guides for people on how to find the right way to put on
> > a condom
> >  or
> >
> >  use a dental dam.
> >  Another thing I didn't see at the NABS table is hot serial.  The
> > packing
> >  guide in the nabs newsletter  said to pack a ton of things and I
> > for one
> >  don't keep hot serial in the house and I don't shop at places
> > that sell
> >  hot
> >
> >  serial, so wasn't able to grab a box.  But I would have loved to
> > buy a box
> >  for even $10 or more, the breakfasts there were $10 alone...
> > (Then of
> >  course
> >
> >  we could sell bole and spoon packs for the poor folks who didn't
> > bring
> >  their
> >
> >  own utensil's).
> >  Thanks,
> >
> >  Brandon Keith Biggs
> >  -----Original Message-----
> >  From: Anmol Bhatia
> >  Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:28 AM
> >  To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
> >
> >
> >  You would be a good place to sell and buy condoms? At the NFB
> >  convention...
> >
> >  Perhaps Nabs should sell condoms at the NABS table.  We can even
> > braille
> >  them
> >
> >  so the perso can know what kind of condoms they have.  lol
> >
> >  Anmol
> >
> >  I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad.
> > Perhaps
> >  there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague,
> > like a breeze
> >  among flowers.
> >  Hellen Keller
> >
> >
> >  --- On Sun, 9/9/12, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> >  From: Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
> >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
> >  To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> >  <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>, "National Association of Blind Students
> > mailing
> >  list"
> >
> >  <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >  Date: Sunday, September 9, 2012, 10:54 PM
> >  Hi, Brandon,
> >
> >  I went into a place in Denver to  buy a dildo yes, on
> >  the bigger, ribbed side to use in the old fashioned bath tub
> >  I had at the time, to get myself off with the faucet.
> >  Traditionally, I need something in my ass, to cum.  If I
> >  remember, the folks in their wer very cool, look at the
> >  blind girl going to by herself a dildo! Don't worry! If
> >  you're relaxed, and cool about what you're doing so will be
> >  the bookstore, personnel.  Let us know how goes it,
> >  okay?  At 04:52 PM 9/8/2012, SA Mobile wrote:
> >  Those are the best places to get stuff as the staff are
> >  professional and are trained to make customers feel at ease.
> >  Just make sure the shop is of good repute.
> >
> >  Respectfully,
> >  Jedi
> >
> >  Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >  On 08/09/2012, at 12:36 PM, "Brandon Keith Biggs"
> >  <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> >  wrote:
> >
> >  Hello,
> >  Thank goodness my father was a nurse and when I
> >  turned 18, he said addio to being in with me at the doctor.
> >  I do find it amusing though that some doctors are actually
> >  really uncomfortable touching me because I'm blind...  That
> >  only happened after my dad started leaving the room.
> >  Thank you Arielle for those websites.  I don't feel
> >  that condoms are something I want to buy from a website I've
> >  never heard of before unless someone I know has gotten or
> >  knows that site is trust worthy.
> >  I was told that flavored condoms were only to be
> >  used in oral intercourse.  The same is not for lube I
> >  presume?
> >  Also, has anyone ever gone into a sex store? How
> >  was it as a blind shopper? Even from sighted people I hear
> >  the experience is often not pleasant.
> >  Thanks,
> >
> >  Brandon Keith Biggs
> >  -----Original Message----- From: Arielle
> >  Silverman
> >  Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2012 10:00 AM
> >  To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >  Subject: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
> >
> >  Hi all,
> >  I know the recent discussions about sex and dating
> >  are kind of in a
> >  gray area as to whether or not they're on-topic
> >  for this list, since
> >  most of the issues Koby brought up are not really
> >  unique to blindness.
> >  So if the moderators or Dave feel this is getting
> >  too far afield, I
> >  will happily respect your judgment.  However, I
> >  also think that
> >  Brandon's question about where to get condoms is a
> >  legitimate one and
> >  that there might be other blind people out here,
> >  including teenagers,
> >  who have similar concerns about how to get
> >  condoms, birth control or
> >  sexual health information without a lot of
> >  awkwardness or
> >  embarrassment.  It can be particularly difficult if
> >  you have to depend
> >  on someone else (especially parents) for
> >  transportation which can make
> >  going to a clinic or drugstore difficult.
> >  There are a few places to buy condoms online,
> >  including
> >  www.condomania.com
> >  www.undercovercondoms.com
> >  and
> >  www.condomdepot.com
> >  Believe it or not, they also have some condom
> >  choices at
> >  www.amazon.com
> >  If you go to your health center on campus for any
> >  reason, it shouldn't
> >  be a problem  to ask a doctor or nurse there
> >  about condoms.
> >  I cannot answer the questions about when to begin
> >  having sex with a
> >  partner because that is a highly individual
> >  decision.  However, I feel
> >  it important that anyone who is considering having
> >  sex for the first
> >  time ensure you understand what all of your
> >  options are for preventing
> >  pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases, the
> >  advantages and
> >  disadvantages of each option, and the proper way
> >  to use condoms  and
> >  birth control.  There are  a couple different
> >  websites with this kind
> >  of information:
> >  www.plannedparenthood.org
> >  (includes live chat with a sexual health educator)
> >  or
> >  www.scarleteen.com
> >  This issue is particularly close to my heart at
> >  the moment because my
> >  boyfriend's sister just had an unintended
> >  pregnancy at a very
> >  inopportune time (while still in college, with a
> >  guy she had only
> >  known for a few months) and was apparently taking
> >  birth control pills,
> >  but had not been taking them consistently.  While I
> >  don't believe that
> >  sex  should be feared, it is something that
> >  takes some responsibility,
> >  planning and foresight to ensure it is enjoyable
> >  while minimizing the
> >  risks.  Also, while I won't go into details here,
> >  there are other ways
> >  to be physically intimate with someone that are
> >  less risky, which
> >  these online forums will talk about.
> >  I also want to bring up  an issue that is
> >  somewhat relevant to sexual
> >  health, which I experienced and I think that some
> >  of you might also be
> >  struggling with.  This is the issue of having your
> >  parents drive you to
> >  doctors' appointments and then having them want to
> >  sit in or even
> >  participate in your appointments.  Since I attended
> >  college in my home
> >  city, my mother always wanted to drive me to my
> >  doctors' appointments
> >  and would then want to come in and chat with the
> >  doctor while he/she
> >  was examining me.  This was partly because my
> >  parents and I saw many of
> >  the same doctors and she often thought it was a
> >  good opportunity to
> >  ask the doctor a quick question about her own
> >  health while she was
> >  there, or because she was curious to see what the
> >  doctor recommended
> >  to me about a particular issue.  I eventually
> >  realized that while it
> >  wasn't ill-intentioned, it was a violation of my
> >  privacy as an adult
> >  patient and I asked her to wait in the waiting
> >  room while I was seeing
> >  the doctor.  I didn't actually take this stand
> >  until I was 21 and in
> >  hindsight I wish I had done  it much earlier.
> >  By the time you are 18,
> >  unless you have a serious cognitive disability,
> >  you have a right to
> >  privacy of your medical information and it is
> >  important to establish a
> >  good doctor-patient relationship without a third
> >  person interfering.
> >  This is especially true when it comes to sexual
> >  health and by the time
> >  you are 18 or even 16, you will want to start
> >  discussing your sexual
> >  activities or questions with your doctors without
> >  your parents being
> >  around.  You might also want to consider getting a
> >  driver or even
> >  taking the bus to medical appointments to avoid
> >  this problem.
> >  On a related note, by the time you are in high
> >  school, you should know
> >  the names of all medications you take on  a
> >  regular basis and any
> >  chronic medical conditions you may have.  If you
> >  ever have to go to the
> >  emergency room, this kind  of information may
> >  be requested of you.
> >  Best,
> >  Arielle