[nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sighted society at social gatherings

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Good point!


Sent from my iPad

On Sep 15, 2012, at 7:36 PM, "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:

> Well, there are plenty of places where you can do a free list, googlegroups.com, yahoogroups.com, freelists.org etc.
> 
> Nothing is stopping you.
> 
> Dave
> 
> At 11:29 PM 9/14/2012, you wrote:
>> And this is precisely why I wanted to create a separate list to
>> discuss these kinds of issues and more. And, at the risk of offending
>> people, I wanted it to be a separate list, separate from the NFB or
>> ACB, I wanted it to be the place for every blind person, no matter
>> their political or social status or whatever, to discuss how they fit
>> in with society. Why does it offend you that blind people, whether
>> they be men or women, should try to do their best to interact as
>> sighted people do? Are there really specific guidelines we have to
>> follow? I really want to understand this. I know as well as anyone
>> what struggles we have to go through growing up just to be treated
>> like human beings. First, we're blind people, then we're young, and
>> the stereotypes surrounding young people of our generation are just as
>> crippling as those surrounding being blind. So being dealt both as our
>> hand in life is kind of a double whammy. I still struggle when someone
>> actually treats me as an equal. I want to run away.
>> 
>> On 9/14/12, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I've tried to avoid getting into this thread, but here goes:
>> > 1. Blind people acting like sighted people scares the crap out of
>> > me because it just does for some reason.
>> > 2. Girls' conformity rules are terrible: for instance, girls
>> > shouldn't be scientists.  What does that statement say about us
>> > girls?  Girls should be married to men with decent jobs.  No, I
>> > will not marry a man with any job so I can be taken care of, and
>> > this isn't the friggin' 1800's.  Girls and women can take care of
>> > themselves, and they can work and support families.  Jason, my
>> > current bf, does not work and can't do what society says, be a
>> > man and work and get paid for the woman.  Some societies demand
>> > that all men work and women stay home.  We, Americans though we
>> > are, still have these demands on blind women.  I as a blind woman
>> > cannot accept conformity or defeat due to womanhood.  Since Jason
>> > can't work and follow society's rules of manhood, it's up to me
>> > to do it.  Girls should not always do typing, nursing, or
>> > different "womanly" professions where they get paid less than
>> > ordinary men.  Jason, due to his disability, does not work.  I,
>> > due to mental illness, may never work.  I want to work so bad,
>> > but where?  Goodwill is out of the question.  I'm not working for
>> > nothing or low wages because I'm a woman.  And no way will I
>> > accept sexual harassment because I have breasts and different
>> > organs inside me.  I as a blind woman will not accept rules
>> > saying "You will be taken care of.  You will be a stay-at-home
>> > wife.  You will be poor."  No way.
>> > Beth
>> >
>> >  ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com
>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> > Date sent: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:37:00 -0600
>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
>> > sighted societyat social gatherings
>> >
>> > Chris wrote,
>> > Therefore, it is important that we know the unwritten rules which
>> > our sighted society has made.  If we don't know them and follow
>> > them, what does that say about us as blind people? It says we are
>> > weird, different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.
>> >
>> > Alternatively, perhaps it says that those rules are not natural,
>> > that they are the product of sighted people simply aping one
>> > another, and that they are arbitrary. I believe that such
>> > unwritten rules often needlessly cause huge amounts of anxiety,
>> > self-loathing, and anguish.
>> >
>> > We had a similar discussion on this list some time ago,
>> > particularly around the subject of so called "blindisms, and I
>> > put that term in quotes as a way of acknowledging that it is
>> > pejorative. I'm sure it could be found on line by anyone who is
>> > interested.
>> >
>> > Personally, I would rather live in a world where blind people are
>> > accepted and respected not simply to the extent that they can
>> > look and act like sighted people, but on the grounds that they
>> > are human beings possessing dignity and as equally worthy of
>> > respect as sighted people. The message shouldn't be, "hey, we can
>> > follow your rules, so you should accept us". Instead, the message
>> > should be, "we, like you, have many talents and weaknesses, feel
>> > pleasure and pain, reach our full potential through the formation
>> > of deep and meaningful relationships with other human beings, and
>> > your failure to treat us with respect and as equals is unfair,
>> > discriminatory, and immoral", to borrow from Mr. Lewis.
>> >
>> > By the way, I think this goes well beyond blind people fitting
>> > into sighted society. We are constantly policing one another's
>> > behaviour. Probably one of the more obvious examples of this has
>> > to do with gender. There are hundreds if not thousands of mostly
>> > unspoken rules about what makes a man a man and how real men
>> > ought to behave, and there are twice as many concerning women.
>> > These rules are enforced in subtle but effective ways, and the
>> > result is often a great deal of suffering for anyone who cannot,
>> > or chooses not to, conform. These gender rules are just as
>> > arbitrary as those around sighted/blind behaviour, and the effort
>> > similarly should be to relax and remove such rules, not to more
>> > explicitly and fervently teach boys and girls the so called right
>> > way to act.
>> >
>> > This is of course easier said than done, and failing to conform
>> > does unfortunately often result in suffering, such as missed
>> > social, volunteer, and employment opportunities. So I don't judge
>> > or condemn anyone who makes a serious effort to learn the
>> > unwritten rules of sighted society, just as I don't judge someone
>> > who wants to spend all of his or her time reading medical
>> > journals and desperately praying for a cure. It's hard being
>> > blind in the particular society in which we live, and conforming
>> > can make things a little bit easier. But I still think we should
>> > work more on changing attitudes and less on teaching blind people
>> > how to look and act like sighted people.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Marc
>> > On 2012-09-14, at 3:04 PM, Chris Nusbaum
>> > <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >  Hi Brandon and all,
>> >
>> >  I'm taking the liberty here to change the subject of this
>> > thread, as if we're going to discuss the topic which Brandon has
>> > brought up in his post, I think it would prevent confusion if we
>> > changed the subject to reflect the actual topic of Brandon's
>> > message.
>> >
>> >  Brandon, your idea about the NFB conducting some kind of
>> > instructional seminar or workshop on social norms and how we can
>> > "fit in" with the sighted public is a great one! I think you
>> > should talk with the NFB leadership about this! I believe NOPBC
>> > (the parents division) has touched on this topic in their
>> > seminars at conventions.  One of the topics at the parents
>> > seminar at the Maryland state convention is almost always social
>> > skills, especially what sighted society has deemed socially
>> > acceptable and how we as blind people can fit in at social
>> > gatherings, conforming as best we can to the "norms" of society.
>> > I believe this is arguably more important for blind students, as
>> > we are often in social gatherings (or want to be in them) at our
>> > schools, with our friends, or in our communities.  Therefore, it
>> > is important  that we know the unwritten rules which our sighted
>> > society has made.  If we don't know them and follow them, what
>> > does that say about us as blind people? It says we are weird,
>> > different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.  These are the
>> > very adjectives we in the Federation have been working to cut out
>> > from the vocabulary of the public when in the context of
>> > blindness and blind people.  In other words, these are the very
>> > things we don't want sighted people thinking about us.  If this
>> > is how sighted people perceive us, then it puts our ability to
>> > get a job, volunteer in our community, and become first-class
>> > citizens at risk.  So, I think this would be a great thing for
>> > the NFB to do, and one which I'm kind of surprised we're not
>> > doing already.  Also, since this is an important topic for blind
>> > students, perhaps "social skills and norms" could be the topic of
>> > a future NABS membership call.
>> >
>> >  Just my thoughts,
>> >
>> >  Chris
>> >
>> >  ----- Original Message -----
>> >  From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>> >  To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >  Date sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:15:16 -0700
>> >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>> >
>> >  Hello,
>> >  We aren't promoting sex among students, we are promoting safe
>> > sex.  There is
>> >  a huge difference.  If the student division is the only one with
>> > some
>> >  practical sense about sexual activities, I'm a little scared...
>> > :)
>> >  I do agree though, sex, dating and excepted socializing among a
>> > sighted
>> >  community is a very big topic that is often times ignored by the
>> > blind
>> >  community.
>> >  I have been told by sighted TVIs that many blind folks (youth or
>> > not) have
>> >  some very strange mannerisms and beliefs that are totally
>> > against the grain
>> >  of sighted society.  My mom in particular, who is a TVI, has
>> > suggested that
>> >  the NFB should really give some instruction on how the sighted
>> > world thinks.
>> >  Otherwise what will happen (and what has happened) is the world
>> > looks at a
>> >  gathering of blind people and cringes because they are so weird.
>> > or a
>> >  sighted girl sees a blind guy and thinks she wants to talk to
>> > him and when
>> >  she is about to sit down and say hi, the guy does something
>> > really weird and
>> >  she turns around and walks a mile away.
>> >  This is a little different than the deal with the condoms, but
>> > both sexual
>> >  health and social issues are topics that are very much in need
>> > of attention
>> >  among blind individuals, and students in particular.
>> >  I feel strongly that having some active workshops on this that
>> > aren't meant
>> >  to be uncomfortable, but still deal with the taboo problems
>> > would greatly
>> >  improve convention.
>> >  Thank you,
>> >
>> >  Brandon Keith Biggs
>> >  -----Original Message-----
>> >  From: Arielle Silverman
>> >  Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:18 PM
>> >  To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>> >
>> >  Hi all,
>> >  I have joked in the past about how NABS should sell Brailled
>> > Whozit
>> >  condoms at convention! Kidding aside, though, there are probably
>> > some
>> >  NFB leaders with more conservative leanings, who might feel that
>> > NABS
>> >  selling condoms at convention would be promoting sexual activity
>> > among
>> >  young or unmarried blind students.  I don't agree with that
>> > position,
>> >  but some people do and since anything NABS does is, by
>> > extension, an
>> >  NFB-sanctioned event, we would need to balance the benefits of
>> >  providing condoms against possibly upsetting the NFB leadership
>> > or
>> >  bringing on an unwanted political debate.
>> >  I would be more likely to support a NABS breakout session, at
>> >  Washington Seminar or elsewhere, about sexuality in general, and
>> >  perhaps include an opportunity to try putting a condom on the
>> >  proverbial banana or some such.  When I was 15, I went to a
>> > diversity
>> >  camp (for sighted teens) and there was a sexuality workshop
>> > available
>> >  as one of several choices.  They passed around condoms and in
>> > fact,
>> >  this was the first time I actually felt one.  A general workshop
>> > about
>> >  sex, dating and etiquette, etc.  might be worth having.
>> >  Arielle
>> >
>> >  On 9/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >  Hello,
>> >  This would be an awesome idea! Not only because many people have
>> > never
>> >  seen
>> >
>> >  a condom, so they could finger the packages with labels without
>> > having to
>> >  be
>> >
>> >  embarrassed, but when I was at the hotel I didn't run into any
>> > condoms in
>> >  the store.  Granted I wasn't looking for them, but I was
>> > browsing...
>> >  Condoms,
>> >
>> >  lube and Dental Dams, all labeled in Braille! We would also
>> > probably need
>> >  to
>> >
>> >  provide guides for people on how to find the right way to put on
>> > a condom
>> >  or
>> >
>> >  use a dental dam.
>> >  Another thing I didn't see at the NABS table is hot serial.  The
>> > packing
>> >  guide in the nabs newsletter  said to pack a ton of things and I
>> > for one
>> >  don't keep hot serial in the house and I don't shop at places
>> > that sell
>> >  hot
>> >
>> >  serial, so wasn't able to grab a box.  But I would have loved to
>> > buy a box
>> >  for even $10 or more, the breakfasts there were $10 alone...
>> > (Then of
>> >  course
>> >
>> >  we could sell bole and spoon packs for the poor folks who didn't
>> > bring
>> >  their
>> >
>> >  own utensil's).
>> >  Thanks,
>> >
>> >  Brandon Keith Biggs
>> >  -----Original Message-----
>> >  From: Anmol Bhatia
>> >  Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:28 AM
>> >  To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>> >
>> >
>> >  You would be a good place to sell and buy condoms? At the NFB
>> >  convention...
>> >
>> >  Perhaps Nabs should sell condoms at the NABS table.  We can even
>> > braille
>> >  them
>> >
>> >  so the perso can know what kind of condoms they have.  lol
>> >
>> >  Anmol
>> >
>> >  I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad.
>> > Perhaps
>> >  there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague,
>> > like a breeze
>> >  among flowers.
>> >  Hellen Keller
>> >
>> >
>> >  --- On Sun, 9/9/12, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >  From: Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
>> >  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>> >  To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> >  <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>, "National Association of Blind Students
>> > mailing
>> >  list"
>> >
>> >  <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >  Date: Sunday, September 9, 2012, 10:54 PM
>> >  Hi, Brandon,
>> >
>> >  I went into a place in Denver to  buy a dildo yes, on
>> >  the bigger, ribbed side to use in the old fashioned bath tub
>> >  I had at the time, to get myself off with the faucet.
>> >  Traditionally, I need something in my ass, to cum.  If I
>> >  remember, the folks in their wer very cool, look at the
>> >  blind girl going to by herself a dildo! Don't worry! If
>> >  you're relaxed, and cool about what you're doing so will be
>> >  the bookstore, personnel.  Let us know how goes it,
>> >  okay?  At 04:52 PM 9/8/2012, SA Mobile wrote:
>> >  Those are the best places to get stuff as the staff are
>> >  professional and are trained to make customers feel at ease.
>> >  Just make sure the shop is of good repute.
>> >
>> >  Respectfully,
>> >  Jedi
>> >
>> >  Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> >  On 08/09/2012, at 12:36 PM, "Brandon Keith Biggs"
>> >  <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>> >  wrote:
>> >
>> >  Hello,
>> >  Thank goodness my father was a nurse and when I
>> >  turned 18, he said addio to being in with me at the doctor.
>> >  I do find it amusing though that some doctors are actually
>> >  really uncomfortable touching me because I'm blind...  That
>> >  only happened after my dad started leaving the room.
>> >  Thank you Arielle for those websites.  I don't feel
>> >  that condoms are something I want to buy from a website I've
>> >  never heard of before unless someone I know has gotten or
>> >  knows that site is trust worthy.
>> >  I was told that flavored condoms were only to be
>> >  used in oral intercourse.  The same is not for lube I
>> >  presume?
>> >  Also, has anyone ever gone into a sex store? How
>> >  was it as a blind shopper? Even from sighted people I hear
>> >  the experience is often not pleasant.
>> >  Thanks,
>> >
>> >  Brandon Keith Biggs
>> >  -----Original Message----- From: Arielle
>> >  Silverman
>> >  Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2012 10:00 AM
>> >  To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >  Subject: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>> >
>> >  Hi all,
>> >  I know the recent discussions about sex and dating
>> >  are kind of in a
>> >  gray area as to whether or not they're on-topic
>> >  for this list, since
>> >  most of the issues Koby brought up are not really
>> >  unique to blindness.
>> >  So if the moderators or Dave feel this is getting
>> >  too far afield, I
>> >  will happily respect your judgment.  However, I
>> >  also think that
>> >  Brandon's question about where to get condoms is a
>> >  legitimate one and
>> >  that there might be other blind people out here,
>> >  including teenagers,
>> >  who have similar concerns about how to get
>> >  condoms, birth control or
>> >  sexual health information without a lot of
>> >  awkwardness or
>> >  embarrassment.  It can be particularly difficult if
>> >  you have to depend
>> >  on someone else (especially parents) for
>> >  transportation which can make
>> >  going to a clinic or drugstore difficult.
>> >  There are a few places to buy condoms online,
>> >  including
>> >  www.condomania.com
>> >  www.undercovercondoms.com
>> >  and
>> >  www.condomdepot.com
>> >  Believe it or not, they also have some condom
>> >  choices at
>> >  www.amazon.com
>> >  If you go to your health center on campus for any
>> >  reason, it shouldn't
>> >  be a problem  to ask a doctor or nurse there
>> >  about condoms.
>> >  I cannot answer the questions about when to begin
>> >  having sex with a
>> >  partner because that is a highly individual
>> >  decision.  However, I feel
>> >  it important that anyone who is considering having
>> >  sex for the first
>> >  time ensure you understand what all of your
>> >  options are for preventing
>> >  pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases, the
>> >  advantages and
>> >  disadvantages of each option, and the proper way
>> >  to use condoms  and
>> >  birth control.  There are  a couple different
>> >  websites with this kind
>> >  of information:
>> >  www.plannedparenthood.org
>> >  (includes live chat with a sexual health educator)
>> >  or
>> >  www.scarleteen.com
>> >  This issue is particularly close to my heart at
>> >  the moment because my
>> >  boyfriend's sister just had an unintended
>> >  pregnancy at a very
>> >  inopportune time (while still in college, with a
>> >  guy she had only
>> >  known for a few months) and was apparently taking
>> >  birth control pills,
>> >  but had not been taking them consistently.  While I
>> >  don't believe that
>> >  sex  should be feared, it is something that
>> >  takes some responsibility,
>> >  planning and foresight to ensure it is enjoyable
>> >  while minimizing the
>> >  risks.  Also, while I won't go into details here,
>> >  there are other ways
>> >  to be physically intimate with someone that are
>> >  less risky, which
>> >  these online forums will talk about.
>> >  I also want to bring up  an issue that is
>> >  somewhat relevant to sexual
>> >  health, which I experienced and I think that some
>> >  of you might also be
>> >  struggling with.  This is the issue of having your
>> >  parents drive you to
>> >  doctors' appointments and then having them want to
>> >  sit in or even
>> >  participate in your appointments.  Since I attended
>> >  college in my home
>> >  city, my mother always wanted to drive me to my
>> >  doctors' appointments
>> >  and would then want to come in and chat with the
>> >  doctor while he/she
>> >  was examining me.  This was partly because my
>> >  parents and I saw many of
>> >  the same doctors and she often thought it was a
>> >  good opportunity to
>> >  ask the doctor a quick question about her own
>> >  health while she was
>> >  there, or because she was curious to see what the
>> >  doctor recommended
>> >  to me about a particular issue.  I eventually
>> >  realized that while it
>> >  wasn't ill-intentioned, it was a violation of my
>> >  privacy as an adult
>> >  patient and I asked her to wait in the waiting
>> >  room while I was seeing
>> >  the doctor.  I didn't actually take this stand
>> >  until I was 21 and in
>> >  hindsight I wish I had done  it much earlier.
>> >  By the time you are 18,
>> >  unless you have a serious cognitive disability,
>> >  you have a right to
>> >  privacy of your medical information and it is
>> >  important to establish a
>> >  good doctor-patient relationship without a third
>> >  person interfering.
>> >  This is especially true when it comes to sexual
>> >  health and by the time
>> >  you are 18 or even 16, you will want to start
>> >  discussing your sexual
>> >  activities or questions with your doctors without
>> >  your parents being
>> >  around.  You might also want to consider getting a
>> >  driver or even
>> >  taking the bus to medical appointments to avoid
>> >  this problem.
>> >  On a related note, by the time you are in high
>> >  school, you should know
>> >  the names of all medications you take on  a
>> >  regular basis and any
>> >  chronic medical conditions you may have.  If you
>> >  ever have to go to the
>> >  emergency room, this kind  of information may
>> >  be requested of you.
>> >  Best,
>> >  Arielle
> 
> 
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