[nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sighted societyatsocial gatherings
Brandon Keith Biggs
brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
Wed Sep 19 15:41:24 UTC 2012
Hello,
This is not really the idea. You are talking of stereotypes, we are talking
about rules. It is more like women should not ask the guy on the date unless
they wanted to be labeled as forward. Women should be free to hug and touch
as much as they want for affection, but guys should leave their social
touching to be used for great effect.
In America it isn't that odd for women to kiss women if they are both best
friends, but guys should not kiss one another unless they are from a
different culture (French or something) where they have a special way of
kissing on both cheeks, or want to be seen as gay.
Stereotypical ideas of being a stay at home mom, finding a man who has a job
and what not is more a lifestyle choice that says something about you being
a go-getter or not.
Frankly though, some stay at home parents are pretty amazing. Now with the
advenchan of the internet, stay at home moms or dads can work from the home
if they want, they are often leaders in PTAs, are very big in politics and
do unbelievable amounts of things that working people could never do. But it
is only a reflection of one's personality. How willing is one to doggedly
search for answers to questions, learn new things, attend appointments, get
up in the morning and actually get things done rather than falling into the
pointless actions of playing games, watching TV, sitting and reading books
or listening to the radio.
Of course people can multi task and often times that is what people do, but
again that takes discipline and many people don't have much of it.
But it wouldn't heart to menschen the image that being a stay at home parent
gives vs. working and the image marrying a man with a good job gives vs.
not. Other than that it is personal choice like always. But because we
aren't able to see bodies, I believe bodily and early adolescent and College
behavioral norms should be studied first.
(I don't know anyone except for very old people, who think women should not
go into STEM... Some of the most world changing discoveries strictly came
from women, especially in astronomy. (Has anyone heard of stars being more
than 60 thousand light years away? That was because of a woman... :)
I think the largest stereotype we need to break is that:
Blind people look blind, are odd, helpless, can't work, don't do anything
impressive except for the inspirations, shouldn't be displayed in public as
standards of excellence, are ugly, are not safe, can't handle stairs and are
not acceptable in the sighted world except under the label of blind.
Blindness is only an inconvenience when you don't look blind, otherwise it
is a label.
I have met people who are convinced that I'm not blind. I've gone into
auditions where people have no idea that I'm blind till I ask them if they
have questions about my blindness. This is what it means for blindness to be
an inconvenience. Oh yeah, by the way, I'm blind... "You're blind? Really?
You don't look blind..."
Thanks,
Brandon Keith Biggs
-----Original Message-----
From: Beth
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 8:22 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sighted
societyatsocial gatherings
I've tried to avoid getting into this thread, but here goes:
1. Blind people acting like sighted people scares the crap out of
me because it just does for some reason.
2. Girls' conformity rules are terrible: for instance, girls
shouldn't be scientists. What does that statement say about us
girls? Girls should be married to men with decent jobs. No, I
will not marry a man with any job so I can be taken care of, and
this isn't the friggin' 1800's. Girls and women can take care of
themselves, and they can work and support families. Jason, my
current bf, does not work and can't do what society says, be a
man and work and get paid for the woman. Some societies demand
that all men work and women stay home. We, Americans though we
are, still have these demands on blind women. I as a blind woman
cannot accept conformity or defeat due to womanhood. Since Jason
can't work and follow society's rules of manhood, it's up to me
to do it. Girls should not always do typing, nursing, or
different "womanly" professions where they get paid less than
ordinary men. Jason, due to his disability, does not work. I,
due to mental illness, may never work. I want to work so bad,
but where? Goodwill is out of the question. I'm not working for
nothing or low wages because I'm a woman. And no way will I
accept sexual harassment because I have breasts and different
organs inside me. I as a blind woman will not accept rules
saying "You will be taken care of. You will be a stay-at-home
wife. You will be poor." No way.
Beth
----- Original Message -----
From: Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:37:00 -0600
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
sighted societyat social gatherings
Chris wrote,
Therefore, it is important that we know the unwritten rules which
our sighted society has made. If we don't know them and follow
them, what does that say about us as blind people? It says we are
weird, different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.
Alternatively, perhaps it says that those rules are not natural,
that they are the product of sighted people simply aping one
another, and that they are arbitrary. I believe that such
unwritten rules often needlessly cause huge amounts of anxiety,
self-loathing, and anguish.
We had a similar discussion on this list some time ago,
particularly around the subject of so called "blindisms, and I
put that term in quotes as a way of acknowledging that it is
pejorative. I'm sure it could be found on line by anyone who is
interested.
Personally, I would rather live in a world where blind people are
accepted and respected not simply to the extent that they can
look and act like sighted people, but on the grounds that they
are human beings possessing dignity and as equally worthy of
respect as sighted people. The message shouldn't be, "hey, we can
follow your rules, so you should accept us". Instead, the message
should be, "we, like you, have many talents and weaknesses, feel
pleasure and pain, reach our full potential through the formation
of deep and meaningful relationships with other human beings, and
your failure to treat us with respect and as equals is unfair,
discriminatory, and immoral", to borrow from Mr. Lewis.
By the way, I think this goes well beyond blind people fitting
into sighted society. We are constantly policing one another's
behaviour. Probably one of the more obvious examples of this has
to do with gender. There are hundreds if not thousands of mostly
unspoken rules about what makes a man a man and how real men
ought to behave, and there are twice as many concerning women.
These rules are enforced in subtle but effective ways, and the
result is often a great deal of suffering for anyone who cannot,
or chooses not to, conform. These gender rules are just as
arbitrary as those around sighted/blind behaviour, and the effort
similarly should be to relax and remove such rules, not to more
explicitly and fervently teach boys and girls the so called right
way to act.
This is of course easier said than done, and failing to conform
does unfortunately often result in suffering, such as missed
social, volunteer, and employment opportunities. So I don't judge
or condemn anyone who makes a serious effort to learn the
unwritten rules of sighted society, just as I don't judge someone
who wants to spend all of his or her time reading medical
journals and desperately praying for a cure. It's hard being
blind in the particular society in which we live, and conforming
can make things a little bit easier. But I still think we should
work more on changing attitudes and less on teaching blind people
how to look and act like sighted people.
Regards,
Marc
On 2012-09-14, at 3:04 PM, Chris Nusbaum
<dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Brandon and all,
I'm taking the liberty here to change the subject of this
thread, as if we're going to discuss the topic which Brandon has
brought up in his post, I think it would prevent confusion if we
changed the subject to reflect the actual topic of Brandon's
message.
Brandon, your idea about the NFB conducting some kind of
instructional seminar or workshop on social norms and how we can
"fit in" with the sighted public is a great one! I think you
should talk with the NFB leadership about this! I believe NOPBC
(the parents division) has touched on this topic in their
seminars at conventions. One of the topics at the parents
seminar at the Maryland state convention is almost always social
skills, especially what sighted society has deemed socially
acceptable and how we as blind people can fit in at social
gatherings, conforming as best we can to the "norms" of society.
I believe this is arguably more important for blind students, as
we are often in social gatherings (or want to be in them) at our
schools, with our friends, or in our communities. Therefore, it
is important that we know the unwritten rules which our sighted
society has made. If we don't know them and follow them, what
does that say about us as blind people? It says we are weird,
different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc. These are the
very adjectives we in the Federation have been working to cut out
from the vocabulary of the public when in the context of
blindness and blind people. In other words, these are the very
things we don't want sighted people thinking about us. If this
is how sighted people perceive us, then it puts our ability to
get a job, volunteer in our community, and become first-class
citizens at risk. So, I think this would be a great thing for
the NFB to do, and one which I'm kind of surprised we're not
doing already. Also, since this is an important topic for blind
students, perhaps "social skills and norms" could be the topic of
a future NABS membership call.
Just my thoughts,
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:15:16 -0700
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
Hello,
We aren't promoting sex among students, we are promoting safe
sex. There is
a huge difference. If the student division is the only one with
some
practical sense about sexual activities, I'm a little scared...
:)
I do agree though, sex, dating and excepted socializing among a
sighted
community is a very big topic that is often times ignored by the
blind
community.
I have been told by sighted TVIs that many blind folks (youth or
not) have
some very strange mannerisms and beliefs that are totally
against the grain
of sighted society. My mom in particular, who is a TVI, has
suggested that
the NFB should really give some instruction on how the sighted
world thinks.
Otherwise what will happen (and what has happened) is the world
looks at a
gathering of blind people and cringes because they are so weird.
or a
sighted girl sees a blind guy and thinks she wants to talk to
him and when
she is about to sit down and say hi, the guy does something
really weird and
she turns around and walks a mile away.
This is a little different than the deal with the condoms, but
both sexual
health and social issues are topics that are very much in need
of attention
among blind individuals, and students in particular.
I feel strongly that having some active workshops on this that
aren't meant
to be uncomfortable, but still deal with the taboo problems
would greatly
improve convention.
Thank you,
Brandon Keith Biggs
-----Original Message-----
From: Arielle Silverman
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:18 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
Hi all,
I have joked in the past about how NABS should sell Brailled
Whozit
condoms at convention! Kidding aside, though, there are probably
some
NFB leaders with more conservative leanings, who might feel that
NABS
selling condoms at convention would be promoting sexual activity
among
young or unmarried blind students. I don't agree with that
position,
but some people do and since anything NABS does is, by
extension, an
NFB-sanctioned event, we would need to balance the benefits of
providing condoms against possibly upsetting the NFB leadership
or
bringing on an unwanted political debate.
I would be more likely to support a NABS breakout session, at
Washington Seminar or elsewhere, about sexuality in general, and
perhaps include an opportunity to try putting a condom on the
proverbial banana or some such. When I was 15, I went to a
diversity
camp (for sighted teens) and there was a sexuality workshop
available
as one of several choices. They passed around condoms and in
fact,
this was the first time I actually felt one. A general workshop
about
sex, dating and etiquette, etc. might be worth having.
Arielle
On 9/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
wrote:
Hello,
This would be an awesome idea! Not only because many people have
never
seen
a condom, so they could finger the packages with labels without
having to
be
embarrassed, but when I was at the hotel I didn't run into any
condoms in
the store. Granted I wasn't looking for them, but I was
browsing...
Condoms,
lube and Dental Dams, all labeled in Braille! We would also
probably need
to
provide guides for people on how to find the right way to put on
a condom
or
use a dental dam.
Another thing I didn't see at the NABS table is hot serial. The
packing
guide in the nabs newsletter said to pack a ton of things and I
for one
don't keep hot serial in the house and I don't shop at places
that sell
hot
serial, so wasn't able to grab a box. But I would have loved to
buy a box
for even $10 or more, the breakfasts there were $10 alone...
(Then of
course
we could sell bole and spoon packs for the poor folks who didn't
bring
their
own utensil's).
Thanks,
Brandon Keith Biggs
-----Original Message-----
From: Anmol Bhatia
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:28 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
You would be a good place to sell and buy condoms? At the NFB
convention...
Perhaps Nabs should sell condoms at the NABS table. We can even
braille
them
so the perso can know what kind of condoms they have. lol
Anmol
I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad.
Perhaps
there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague,
like a breeze
among flowers.
Hellen Keller
--- On Sun, 9/9/12, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net>
wrote:
From: Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>, "National Association of Blind Students
mailing
list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Date: Sunday, September 9, 2012, 10:54 PM
Hi, Brandon,
I went into a place in Denver to buy a dildo yes, on
the bigger, ribbed side to use in the old fashioned bath tub
I had at the time, to get myself off with the faucet.
Traditionally, I need something in my ass, to cum. If I
remember, the folks in their wer very cool, look at the
blind girl going to by herself a dildo! Don't worry! If
you're relaxed, and cool about what you're doing so will be
the bookstore, personnel. Let us know how goes it,
okay? At 04:52 PM 9/8/2012, SA Mobile wrote:
Those are the best places to get stuff as the staff are
professional and are trained to make customers feel at ease.
Just make sure the shop is of good repute.
Respectfully,
Jedi
Sent from my iPhone
On 08/09/2012, at 12:36 PM, "Brandon Keith Biggs"
<brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
wrote:
Hello,
Thank goodness my father was a nurse and when I
turned 18, he said addio to being in with me at the doctor.
I do find it amusing though that some doctors are actually
really uncomfortable touching me because I'm blind... That
only happened after my dad started leaving the room.
Thank you Arielle for those websites. I don't feel
that condoms are something I want to buy from a website I've
never heard of before unless someone I know has gotten or
knows that site is trust worthy.
I was told that flavored condoms were only to be
used in oral intercourse. The same is not for lube I
presume?
Also, has anyone ever gone into a sex store? How
was it as a blind shopper? Even from sighted people I hear
the experience is often not pleasant.
Thanks,
Brandon Keith Biggs
-----Original Message----- From: Arielle
Silverman
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2012 10:00 AM
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Subject: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
Hi all,
I know the recent discussions about sex and dating
are kind of in a
gray area as to whether or not they're on-topic
for this list, since
most of the issues Koby brought up are not really
unique to blindness.
So if the moderators or Dave feel this is getting
too far afield, I
will happily respect your judgment. However, I
also think that
Brandon's question about where to get condoms is a
legitimate one and
that there might be other blind people out here,
including teenagers,
who have similar concerns about how to get
condoms, birth control or
sexual health information without a lot of
awkwardness or
embarrassment. It can be particularly difficult if
you have to depend
on someone else (especially parents) for
transportation which can make
going to a clinic or drugstore difficult.
There are a few places to buy condoms online,
including
www.condomania.com
www.undercovercondoms.com
and
www.condomdepot.com
Believe it or not, they also have some condom
choices at
www.amazon.com
If you go to your health center on campus for any
reason, it shouldn't
be a problem to ask a doctor or nurse there
about condoms.
I cannot answer the questions about when to begin
having sex with a
partner because that is a highly individual
decision. However, I feel
it important that anyone who is considering having
sex for the first
time ensure you understand what all of your
options are for preventing
pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases, the
advantages and
disadvantages of each option, and the proper way
to use condoms and
birth control. There are a couple different
websites with this kind
of information:
www.plannedparenthood.org
(includes live chat with a sexual health educator)
or
www.scarleteen.com
This issue is particularly close to my heart at
the moment because my
boyfriend's sister just had an unintended
pregnancy at a very
inopportune time (while still in college, with a
guy she had only
known for a few months) and was apparently taking
birth control pills,
but had not been taking them consistently. While I
don't believe that
sex should be feared, it is something that
takes some responsibility,
planning and foresight to ensure it is enjoyable
while minimizing the
risks. Also, while I won't go into details here,
there are other ways
to be physically intimate with someone that are
less risky, which
these online forums will talk about.
I also want to bring up an issue that is
somewhat relevant to sexual
health, which I experienced and I think that some
of you might also be
struggling with. This is the issue of having your
parents drive you to
doctors' appointments and then having them want to
sit in or even
participate in your appointments. Since I attended
college in my home
city, my mother always wanted to drive me to my
doctors' appointments
and would then want to come in and chat with the
doctor while he/she
was examining me. This was partly because my
parents and I saw many of
the same doctors and she often thought it was a
good opportunity to
ask the doctor a quick question about her own
health while she was
there, or because she was curious to see what the
doctor recommended
to me about a particular issue. I eventually
realized that while it
wasn't ill-intentioned, it was a violation of my
privacy as an adult
patient and I asked her to wait in the waiting
room while I was seeing
the doctor. I didn't actually take this stand
until I was 21 and in
hindsight I wish I had done it much earlier.
By the time you are 18,
unless you have a serious cognitive disability,
you have a right to
privacy of your medical information and it is
important to establish a
good doctor-patient relationship without a third
person interfering.
This is especially true when it comes to sexual
health and by the time
you are 18 or even 16, you will want to start
discussing your sexual
activities or questions with your doctors without
your parents being
around. You might also want to consider getting a
driver or even
taking the bus to medical appointments to avoid
this problem.
On a related note, by the time you are in high
school, you should know
the names of all medications you take on a
regular basis and any
chronic medical conditions you may have. If you
ever have to go to the
emergency room, this kind of information may
be requested of you.
Best,
Arielle
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