[nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 71, Issue 28
Conchita Hernandez Legorreta
hernandezlegorreta at gmail.com
Wed Sep 19 18:10:20 UTC 2012
Hi Brandon Keith Biggs
About your question about reading braille. You should try reading wtih
more fingers. Using one finger at a time to read can be very slow.
Also you need to make sure to read at least 10 pages every single day
in order to get your speed up. The best answer is to just practice.
But make sure to use both hands and more than one finger, that may be
what is slowing you down. It will be a bit strange at first, but if
you keep on practicing your fingers will get a better feel and start
reading. Also, a way to read faster is to feel the shapes of the
letters. Once you do that you can start to feel the shape of wholw
sords. If you concentrate on individual letters you will not get
faster. The shape of a word is a great way to go. And the way to learn
this is to just practice and read a lot every day. Hope this helps.
Conchita Hernandez
On 9/19/12, nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org <nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: JAWS 13 issues? (Katie Wang)
> 2. Re: JAWS 13 issues? (Jewel)
> 3. two questions about the ipad and the braillenote apex (vejas)
> 4. Off Topic Trecker Breeze, used pac-mate, and Eyepal, and
> Duxbury. (Trey Bradley)
> 5. Re: JAWS 13 issues? (David Andrews)
> 6. Speeding Up Reading? (Brandon Keith Biggs)
> 7. Re: JAWS 13 issues? (Katie Wang)
> 8. Re: JAWS 13 issues? (Sarah)
> 9. Re: accessible phones (Brandon Keith Biggs)
> 10. having a hard time fitting in at church (Andrew Edgcumbe)
> 11. Re: accessible phones (Sarah)
> 12. Re: accessible phones (Rania Ismail LMT)
> 13. Re: social norms: how we can fit in with sighted societyat
> social gatherings (Brandon Keith Biggs)
> 14. Re: social norms: how we can fit in with sighted
> societyatsocial gatherings (Brandon Keith Biggs)
> 15. Re: social norms: how we can fit in with sighted societyat
> social gatherings (Brandon Keith Biggs)
> 16. Re: social norms: how we can fit in with sighted
> societyatsocial gatherings (Brandon Keith Biggs)
> 17. Re: social norms: how we can fit in with sighted
> societyatsocial gatherings (Brandon Keith Biggs)
> 18. Re: social norms: how we canfitinwithsightedsocietyatsocial
> gatherings (Brandon Keith Biggs)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:49:56 -0400
> From: Katie Wang <bunnykatie6 at gmail.com>
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] JAWS 13 issues?
> Message-ID:
> <CA+6VNgOQPhTP5znWx=RvpFj3YGdrWAkaA4GMFFn_xDWHtrp3sQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hi Arielle and all,
>
> I actually just came across a news story on-line stating that Google
> is dropping support for IE 8 after mid-November. This means that IE 8
> will not work with any Google services, such as Search or Mail, so
> going back to the older version of the browser may not be the best
> option at this point. I use JAWS 13 and IE 9 on a Windows 7 laptop and
> everything works fine, but I understand that you may not want to shell
> out a few hundred dolloars for a JAWS upgrade if JAWS 11 can do
> everything else you need. All things considered, Firefox might still
> be your best alternative!
>
> Katie
>
>
> On 9/18/12, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
>> Windows 7 does support IE8, I use them together every day -- but I
>> don't know if you can go back from IE9?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> At 03:08 PM 9/17/2012, you wrote:
>>>Hi Steve,
>>>If I am using a Windows 7 machine with IE 9 installed on it, will this
>>>windows update trick still work? I don't think so because I actually
>>>tried installing IE 8 and was told that Windows 7 didn't support IE 8.
>>>Arielle
>>>
>>>On 9/17/12, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>> > Another approach is to go back to Internet Explorer 8. This is fairly
>>> > easy
>>> > to do. Go in to Windows Update and then go to Update
>>> > History and look for the Internet Explorer 9 update. I know of no
>>> > easy
>>> > way
>>> > to find it other than to arrow down through the list
>>> > until you find it. Once you find it, press the "applications" key,
>>> > sometimes called the "context" key which is usually just to
>>> > the left of the right control key. This should bring up a menu that
>>> > includes "remove" or "uninstall." I don't remember the exact
>>> > wording. Press ENTER on that selection and follow any prompts. You
>>> > will
>>> > not need to install IE 8 again because removing the
>>> > update to IE 9 rolls back to IE 8.
>>> >
>>> > There were major changes to how IE 9 displays web pages and this has
>>> > caused
>>> > some problems for screen readers. Certainly using
>>> > FireFox is another good option as well.
>>> >
>>> > Best regards,
>>> >
>>> > Steve Jacobson
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:52:03 -0600, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>Hi Jewel,
>>> >>Are you using Internet Explorer 9? I have JAWS 11 still, but I've
>>> >>encountered the exact same problems you describe when I try to use IE
>>> >>9. I don't believe there's a fix yet except to use Firefox instead of
>>> >>IE on pages that have buttons or check boxes since JAWS has trouble
>>> >>detecting them with IE 9. I too am frustrated by this problem so if
>>> >>anyone has figured out how to make IE 9 work with buttons and check
>>> >>boxes, please let me know.
>>> >>Best,
>>> >>Arielle
>>> >
>>> >>On 9/17/12, Katie Wang <bunnykatie6 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>> Hi Jewel,
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I don't believe that this is a known issue with JAWS 13- I have
>>> >>> never
>>> >>> encountered this problem myself nor heard about it from anyone else
>>> >>> who uses the program. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to try
>>> >>> reinstalling JAWS 13? You might need some sighted assistance with
>>> >>> this
>>> >>> process since you will need to remove JAWS first before attempting a
>>> >>> new installation and I'm not sure if it would fix your issue, but
>>> >>> from
>>> >>> past experience JAWS upgrades can be finicky sometimes and don't
>>> >>> always install properly. Just a suggestion- Sorry I can't be of more
>>> >>> specific help!
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Katie
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On 9/17/12, Jewel <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>> Hey guys,
>>> >>>> Ever since I upgraded to JAWS 13, I have noticed a lot more blanks
>>> >>>> between text (of any kind, link or non-link). Instead of having say
>>> >>>> Home, and then I arrow down and it goes to the next link, I get
>>> >>>> "Home,
>>> >>>> blank, blank, blank, Other Link).
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Another issue I have found is that it seems to be missing some
>>> >>>> buttons. For example, in Bookshare, I have to get a sighted person
>>> >>>> to
>>> >>>> click the "Download" button, because JAWS doesn't read it. I tried
>>> >>>> JAWS cursor, and that was no good. I don't know what else to try.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Does anyone know if this is a known problem with JAWS 13, or is it
>>> >>>> just me? What can I do about this?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Wondering,
>>> >>>> Jewel
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 15:42:19 -0400
> From: Jewel <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] JAWS 13 issues?
> Message-ID:
> <CABORmNs7T98cA_S4P38-NUkmDFtD4WGtzXdvxXbE3bEth8=CWQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hey Katie,
> Thank you so much for letting me know about that! I use Google search
> and Gmail and Google groups and all, so not being able to use Google
> services would be disasterous fir me! I think I'll put up with IE 9
> and hope they fix things
>
> You say everything works for you. I have the same set-up qas you
> do...do you have any trouble with Bookshare? It's not showing the
> Download button. I have a similar problem with BARD...not being able
> to browse by author, title letter, or subject...those two things
> really cut into my ability to find books and download them
> independently.
>
> I tried re-upgrading my JAWS and that didn't work...what else should I
> try, or should I write to someone about this, like Microsoft or
> Freedom Scientific?
>
> Perplexed by this problem,
> Jewel
>
> On 9/18/12, Katie Wang <bunnykatie6 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Arielle and all,
>>
>> I actually just came across a news story on-line stating that Google
>> is dropping support for IE 8 after mid-November. This means that IE 8
>> will not work with any Google services, such as Search or Mail, so
>> going back to the older version of the browser may not be the best
>> option at this point. I use JAWS 13 and IE 9 on a Windows 7 laptop and
>> everything works fine, but I understand that you may not want to shell
>> out a few hundred dolloars for a JAWS upgrade if JAWS 11 can do
>> everything else you need. All things considered, Firefox might still
>> be your best alternative!
>>
>> Katie
>>
>>
>> On 9/18/12, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
>>> Windows 7 does support IE8, I use them together every day -- but I
>>> don't know if you can go back from IE9?
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> At 03:08 PM 9/17/2012, you wrote:
>>>>Hi Steve,
>>>>If I am using a Windows 7 machine with IE 9 installed on it, will this
>>>>windows update trick still work? I don't think so because I actually
>>>>tried installing IE 8 and was told that Windows 7 didn't support IE 8.
>>>>Arielle
>>>>
>>>>On 9/17/12, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>> > Another approach is to go back to Internet Explorer 8. This is
>>>> > fairly
>>>> > easy
>>>> > to do. Go in to Windows Update and then go to Update
>>>> > History and look for the Internet Explorer 9 update. I know of no
>>>> > easy
>>>> > way
>>>> > to find it other than to arrow down through the list
>>>> > until you find it. Once you find it, press the "applications" key,
>>>> > sometimes called the "context" key which is usually just to
>>>> > the left of the right control key. This should bring up a menu that
>>>> > includes "remove" or "uninstall." I don't remember the exact
>>>> > wording. Press ENTER on that selection and follow any prompts. You
>>>> > will
>>>> > not need to install IE 8 again because removing the
>>>> > update to IE 9 rolls back to IE 8.
>>>> >
>>>> > There were major changes to how IE 9 displays web pages and this has
>>>> > caused
>>>> > some problems for screen readers. Certainly using
>>>> > FireFox is another good option as well.
>>>> >
>>>> > Best regards,
>>>> >
>>>> > Steve Jacobson
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:52:03 -0600, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >>Hi Jewel,
>>>> >>Are you using Internet Explorer 9? I have JAWS 11 still, but I've
>>>> >>encountered the exact same problems you describe when I try to use IE
>>>> >>9. I don't believe there's a fix yet except to use Firefox instead of
>>>> >>IE on pages that have buttons or check boxes since JAWS has trouble
>>>> >>detecting them with IE 9. I too am frustrated by this problem so if
>>>> >>anyone has figured out how to make IE 9 work with buttons and check
>>>> >>boxes, please let me know.
>>>> >>Best,
>>>> >>Arielle
>>>> >
>>>> >>On 9/17/12, Katie Wang <bunnykatie6 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>> Hi Jewel,
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I don't believe that this is a known issue with JAWS 13- I have
>>>> >>> never
>>>> >>> encountered this problem myself nor heard about it from anyone else
>>>> >>> who uses the program. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to try
>>>> >>> reinstalling JAWS 13? You might need some sighted assistance with
>>>> >>> this
>>>> >>> process since you will need to remove JAWS first before attempting
>>>> >>> a
>>>> >>> new installation and I'm not sure if it would fix your issue, but
>>>> >>> from
>>>> >>> past experience JAWS upgrades can be finicky sometimes and don't
>>>> >>> always install properly. Just a suggestion- Sorry I can't be of
>>>> >>> more
>>>> >>> specific help!
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Katie
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On 9/17/12, Jewel <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>> Hey guys,
>>>> >>>> Ever since I upgraded to JAWS 13, I have noticed a lot more blanks
>>>> >>>> between text (of any kind, link or non-link). Instead of having
>>>> >>>> say
>>>> >>>> Home, and then I arrow down and it goes to the next link, I get
>>>> >>>> "Home,
>>>> >>>> blank, blank, blank, Other Link).
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Another issue I have found is that it seems to be missing some
>>>> >>>> buttons. For example, in Bookshare, I have to get a sighted person
>>>> >>>> to
>>>> >>>> click the "Download" button, because JAWS doesn't read it. I tried
>>>> >>>> JAWS cursor, and that was no good. I don't know what else to try.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Does anyone know if this is a known problem with JAWS 13, or is it
>>>> >>>> just me? What can I do about this?
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Wondering,
>>>> >>>> Jewel
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 17:44:12 -0800
> From: vejas <brlsurfer at gmail.com>
> To: braillenote at list.humanware.com, nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nabs-l] two questions about the ipad and the braillenote
> apex
> Message-ID: <5059155c.1128650a.6edd.ffff87f9 at mx.google.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Hi All,
> I'm starting to learn how to use my ipad with the braille note
> apex as a keyboard. But there are 2 questions that I have.
> First, how do you go forward a page when you are reading on
> ibooks? A manual said it was space with o, but that actually
> takes me to the braille note options menu.
> Second, how do you capitalize in the beginning of a sentance? The
> ipad only seems to capitalize words in the middle. Let's take
> this sentence as an example:
> They went to South Africa last month.
> The ipad will automatically capitalize South Africa, but not
> they.
> Please if you could answer any of these questions, I'd greatly
> aprreciate it.
> Vejas
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 04:28:24 -0400
> From: Trey Bradley <treyman19 at gmail.com>
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nabs-l] Off Topic Trecker Breeze, used pac-mate, and Eyepal,
> and Duxbury.
> Message-ID:
> <CAEmvBydxkT-=XNcSJzpcwsScubuhz4Wb=KMJmVBJvDgaEh8pFw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> As the subject says I have a Trecker Breeze in good shape for $450
> Used Pac-Mate $200 Duxbury $500, and Eyepal in good shape $750 you
> can contact me at
>
> 219-789-7073
>
> treyman19 at gmail.com
>
> --
> Roosevelt Bradley
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 05:58:28 -0400
> From: David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] JAWS 13 issues?
> Message-ID: <auto-000078166827 at mailfront3.g2host.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> Actually, what I read is that the dropped support was for GoogleDocs
> services. So, this might include mail, but I don't think it would
> include search--it is not a part of Google Docs.
>
> Dave
>
> At 01:49 PM 9/18/2012, you wrote:
>>Hi Arielle and all,
>>
>>I actually just came across a news story on-line stating that Google
>>is dropping support for IE 8 after mid-November. This means that IE 8
>>will not work with any Google services, such as Search or Mail, so
>>going back to the older version of the browser may not be the best
>>option at this point. I use JAWS 13 and IE 9 on a Windows 7 laptop and
>>everything works fine, but I understand that you may not want to shell
>>out a few hundred dolloars for a JAWS upgrade if JAWS 11 can do
>>everything else you need. All things considered, Firefox might still
>>be your best alternative!
>>
>>Katie
>>
>>
>>On 9/18/12, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
>> > Windows 7 does support IE8, I use them together every day -- but I
>> > don't know if you can go back from IE9?
>> >
>> > Dave
>> >
>> > At 03:08 PM 9/17/2012, you wrote:
>> >>Hi Steve,
>> >>If I am using a Windows 7 machine with IE 9 installed on it, will this
>> >>windows update trick still work? I don't think so because I actually
>> >>tried installing IE 8 and was told that Windows 7 didn't support IE 8.
>> >>Arielle
>> >>
>> >>On 9/17/12, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>> >> > Another approach is to go back to Internet Explorer 8. This is
>> >> > fairly
>> >> > easy
>> >> > to do. Go in to Windows Update and then go to Update
>> >> > History and look for the Internet Explorer 9 update. I know of no
>> >> > easy
>> >> > way
>> >> > to find it other than to arrow down through the list
>> >> > until you find it. Once you find it, press the "applications" key,
>> >> > sometimes called the "context" key which is usually just to
>> >> > the left of the right control key. This should bring up a menu that
>> >> > includes "remove" or "uninstall." I don't remember the exact
>> >> > wording. Press ENTER on that selection and follow any prompts. You
>> >> > will
>> >> > not need to install IE 8 again because removing the
>> >> > update to IE 9 rolls back to IE 8.
>> >> >
>> >> > There were major changes to how IE 9 displays web pages and this has
>> >> > caused
>> >> > some problems for screen readers. Certainly using
>> >> > FireFox is another good option as well.
>> >> >
>> >> > Best regards,
>> >> >
>> >> > Steve Jacobson
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:52:03 -0600, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >>Hi Jewel,
>> >> >>Are you using Internet Explorer 9? I have JAWS 11 still, but I've
>> >> >>encountered the exact same problems you describe when I try to use
>> >> >> IE
>> >> >>9. I don't believe there's a fix yet except to use Firefox instead
>> >> >> of
>> >> >>IE on pages that have buttons or check boxes since JAWS has trouble
>> >> >>detecting them with IE 9. I too am frustrated by this problem so if
>> >> >>anyone has figured out how to make IE 9 work with buttons and check
>> >> >>boxes, please let me know.
>> >> >>Best,
>> >> >>Arielle
>> >> >
>> >> >>On 9/17/12, Katie Wang <bunnykatie6 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> Hi Jewel,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I don't believe that this is a known issue with JAWS 13- I have
>> >> >>> never
>> >> >>> encountered this problem myself nor heard about it from anyone
>> >> >>> else
>> >> >>> who uses the program. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to try
>> >> >>> reinstalling JAWS 13? You might need some sighted assistance with
>> >> >>> this
>> >> >>> process since you will need to remove JAWS first before attempting
>> >> >>> a
>> >> >>> new installation and I'm not sure if it would fix your issue, but
>> >> >>> from
>> >> >>> past experience JAWS upgrades can be finicky sometimes and don't
>> >> >>> always install properly. Just a suggestion- Sorry I can't be of
>> >> >>> more
>> >> >>> specific help!
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Katie
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On 9/17/12, Jewel <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>>> Hey guys,
>> >> >>>> Ever since I upgraded to JAWS 13, I have noticed a lot more
>> >> >>>> blanks
>> >> >>>> between text (of any kind, link or non-link). Instead of having
>> >> >>>> say
>> >> >>>> Home, and then I arrow down and it goes to the next link, I get
>> >> >>>> "Home,
>> >> >>>> blank, blank, blank, Other Link).
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Another issue I have found is that it seems to be missing some
>> >> >>>> buttons. For example, in Bookshare, I have to get a sighted
>> >> >>>> person
>> >> >>>> to
>> >> >>>> click the "Download" button, because JAWS doesn't read it. I
>> >> >>>> tried
>> >> >>>> JAWS cursor, and that was no good. I don't know what else to try.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Does anyone know if this is a known problem with JAWS 13, or is
>> >> >>>> it
>> >> >>>> just me? What can I do about this?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Wondering,
>> >> >>>> Jewel
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:26:26 -0700
> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [nabs-l] Speeding Up Reading?
> Message-ID: <069ED5F5E7264BAEAB18D6BDB8CD6A6D at BrandonsLaptop2>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Hello,
> I'm wondering if anyone has any articles, books or advice for speeding up my
>
> Braille reading? I'm at the point to where no matter how much I seem to
> read, my reading is not getting any faster...
> At the moment I'm reading with my left index finger and my right finger
> takes over when lines don't have any really complicated words... I'm getting
>
> down the two hand split, but I'm wondering if there is anything else I can
> be working on?
> I've read that sighted people tend to see words in pictures and they don't
> actually read the whole word. In fact they look at a paragraph and get the
> picture in their head and hardly notice any particular words at all.
> I'm wondering if there is some way to do this with Braille?
> The TVIs that I've talked to have not worked with their students to go past
>
> letter by letter reading. I'm really looking for a Braille reading technique
>
> book if anything exists on that...
> Reading Braille doesn't feel like understanding speech at faster speeds
> which is something I have been able to do with no guidance :) so I'm kind of
>
> at a loss.
> Thank you,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 10:28:30 -0400
> From: Katie Wang <bunnykatie6 at gmail.com>
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] JAWS 13 issues?
> Message-ID:
> <CA+6VNgM+PJxRh7s47qJiQfknqr0U_ntwTH4tigaur_ck+fj=Ow at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hi Jewel,
>
> I'm equally perplexed by your problem-- I use both BARD and Bookshare
> regularly, and neither site has ever given me any problems. I can't
> think of anything else for you to try. Maybe it's time to give Freedom
> Scientific tech support a call (727-803-8600) and see if they might
> have any insights. Hope you will be able to get this issue resolved
> soon!
>
> Katie
>
>
> On 9/19/12, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
>> Actually, what I read is that the dropped support was for GoogleDocs
>> services. So, this might include mail, but I don't think it would
>> include search--it is not a part of Google Docs.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> At 01:49 PM 9/18/2012, you wrote:
>>>Hi Arielle and all,
>>>
>>>I actually just came across a news story on-line stating that Google
>>>is dropping support for IE 8 after mid-November. This means that IE 8
>>>will not work with any Google services, such as Search or Mail, so
>>>going back to the older version of the browser may not be the best
>>>option at this point. I use JAWS 13 and IE 9 on a Windows 7 laptop and
>>>everything works fine, but I understand that you may not want to shell
>>>out a few hundred dolloars for a JAWS upgrade if JAWS 11 can do
>>>everything else you need. All things considered, Firefox might still
>>>be your best alternative!
>>>
>>>Katie
>>>
>>>
>>>On 9/18/12, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
>>> > Windows 7 does support IE8, I use them together every day -- but I
>>> > don't know if you can go back from IE9?
>>> >
>>> > Dave
>>> >
>>> > At 03:08 PM 9/17/2012, you wrote:
>>> >>Hi Steve,
>>> >>If I am using a Windows 7 machine with IE 9 installed on it, will this
>>> >>windows update trick still work? I don't think so because I actually
>>> >>tried installing IE 8 and was told that Windows 7 didn't support IE 8.
>>> >>Arielle
>>> >>
>>> >>On 9/17/12, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>> >> > Another approach is to go back to Internet Explorer 8. This is
>>> >> > fairly
>>> >> > easy
>>> >> > to do. Go in to Windows Update and then go to Update
>>> >> > History and look for the Internet Explorer 9 update. I know of no
>>> >> > easy
>>> >> > way
>>> >> > to find it other than to arrow down through the list
>>> >> > until you find it. Once you find it, press the "applications" key,
>>> >> > sometimes called the "context" key which is usually just to
>>> >> > the left of the right control key. This should bring up a menu
>>> >> > that
>>> >> > includes "remove" or "uninstall." I don't remember the exact
>>> >> > wording. Press ENTER on that selection and follow any prompts.
>>> >> > You
>>> >> > will
>>> >> > not need to install IE 8 again because removing the
>>> >> > update to IE 9 rolls back to IE 8.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > There were major changes to how IE 9 displays web pages and this
>>> >> > has
>>> >> > caused
>>> >> > some problems for screen readers. Certainly using
>>> >> > FireFox is another good option as well.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Best regards,
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Steve Jacobson
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:52:03 -0600, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >>Hi Jewel,
>>> >> >>Are you using Internet Explorer 9? I have JAWS 11 still, but I've
>>> >> >>encountered the exact same problems you describe when I try to use
>>> >> >> IE
>>> >> >>9. I don't believe there's a fix yet except to use Firefox instead
>>> >> >> of
>>> >> >>IE on pages that have buttons or check boxes since JAWS has trouble
>>> >> >>detecting them with IE 9. I too am frustrated by this problem so if
>>> >> >>anyone has figured out how to make IE 9 work with buttons and check
>>> >> >>boxes, please let me know.
>>> >> >>Best,
>>> >> >>Arielle
>>> >> >
>>> >> >>On 9/17/12, Katie Wang <bunnykatie6 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >>> Hi Jewel,
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> I don't believe that this is a known issue with JAWS 13- I have
>>> >> >>> never
>>> >> >>> encountered this problem myself nor heard about it from anyone
>>> >> >>> else
>>> >> >>> who uses the program. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to try
>>> >> >>> reinstalling JAWS 13? You might need some sighted assistance with
>>> >> >>> this
>>> >> >>> process since you will need to remove JAWS first before
>>> >> >>> attempting
>>> >> >>> a
>>> >> >>> new installation and I'm not sure if it would fix your issue, but
>>> >> >>> from
>>> >> >>> past experience JAWS upgrades can be finicky sometimes and don't
>>> >> >>> always install properly. Just a suggestion- Sorry I can't be of
>>> >> >>> more
>>> >> >>> specific help!
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> Katie
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>>
>>> >> >>> On 9/17/12, Jewel <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >>>> Hey guys,
>>> >> >>>> Ever since I upgraded to JAWS 13, I have noticed a lot more
>>> >> >>>> blanks
>>> >> >>>> between text (of any kind, link or non-link). Instead of having
>>> >> >>>> say
>>> >> >>>> Home, and then I arrow down and it goes to the next link, I get
>>> >> >>>> "Home,
>>> >> >>>> blank, blank, blank, Other Link).
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> Another issue I have found is that it seems to be missing some
>>> >> >>>> buttons. For example, in Bookshare, I have to get a sighted
>>> >> >>>> person
>>> >> >>>> to
>>> >> >>>> click the "Download" button, because JAWS doesn't read it. I
>>> >> >>>> tried
>>> >> >>>> JAWS cursor, and that was no good. I don't know what else to
>>> >> >>>> try.
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> Does anyone know if this is a known problem with JAWS 13, or is
>>> >> >>>> it
>>> >> >>>> just me? What can I do about this?
>>> >> >>>>
>>> >> >>>> Wondering,
>>> >> >>>> Jewel
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 07:35:22 -0700
> From: Sarah <coastergirl92 at gmail.com>
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing
> list<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] JAWS 13 issues?
> Message-ID: <5059d832.c6e1440a.5907.ffffb300 at mx.google.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Does anyone have Windows 8 yet?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Katie Wang <bunnykatie6 at gmail.com
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 10:28:30 -0400
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] JAWS 13 issues?
>
> Hi Jewel,
>
> I'm equally perplexed by your problem-- I use both BARD and
> Bookshare
> regularly, and neither site has ever given me any problems. I
> can't
> think of anything else for you to try. Maybe it's time to give
> Freedom
> Scientific tech support a call (727-803-8600) and see if they
> might
> have any insights. Hope you will be able to get this issue
> resolved
> soon!
>
> Katie
>
>
> On 9/19/12, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
> Actually, what I read is that the dropped support was for
> GoogleDocs
> services. So, this might include mail, but I don't think it
> would
> include search--it is not a part of Google Docs.
>
> Dave
>
> At 01:49 PM 9/18/2012, you wrote:
> Hi Arielle and all,
>
> I actually just came across a news story on-line stating that
> Google
> is dropping support for IE 8 after mid-November. This means that
> IE 8
> will not work with any Google services, such as Search or Mail,
> so
> going back to the older version of the browser may not be the
> best
> option at this point. I use JAWS 13 and IE 9 on a Windows 7
> laptop and
> everything works fine, but I understand that you may not want to
> shell
> out a few hundred dolloars for a JAWS upgrade if JAWS 11 can do
> everything else you need. All things considered, Firefox might
> still
> be your best alternative!
>
> Katie
>
>
> On 9/18/12, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
> Windows 7 does support IE8, I use them together every day -- but
> I
> don't know if you can go back from IE9?
>
> Dave
>
> At 03:08 PM 9/17/2012, you wrote:
> Hi Steve,
> If I am using a Windows 7 machine with IE 9 installed on it, will
> this
> windows update trick still work? I don't think so because I
> actually
> tried installing IE 8 and was told that Windows 7 didn't support
> IE 8.
> Arielle
>
> On 9/17/12, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
> Another approach is to go back to Internet Explorer 8. This is
> fairly
> easy
> to do. Go in to Windows Update and then go to Update
> History and look for the Internet Explorer 9 update. I know of
> no
> easy
> way
> to find it other than to arrow down through the list
> until you find it. Once you find it, press the "applications"
> key,
> sometimes called the "context" key which is usually just to
> the left of the right control key. This should bring up a menu
> that
> includes "remove" or "uninstall." I don't remember the exact
> wording. Press ENTER on that selection and follow any prompts.
> You
> will
> not need to install IE 8 again because removing the
> update to IE 9 rolls back to IE 8.
>
> There were major changes to how IE 9 displays web pages and this
> has
> caused
> some problems for screen readers. Certainly using
> FireFox is another good option as well.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
>
> On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:52:03 -0600, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>
> Hi Jewel,
> Are you using Internet Explorer 9? I have JAWS 11 still, but I've
> encountered the exact same problems you describe when I try to
> use
> IE
> 9. I don't believe there's a fix yet except to use Firefox
> instead
> of
> IE on pages that have buttons or check boxes since JAWS has
> trouble
> detecting them with IE 9. I too am frustrated by this problem so
> if
> anyone has figured out how to make IE 9 work with buttons and
> check
> boxes, please let me know.
> Best,
> Arielle
>
> On 9/17/12, Katie Wang <bunnykatie6 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Jewel,
>
> I don't believe that this is a known issue with JAWS 13- I have
> never
> encountered this problem myself nor heard about it from anyone
> else
> who uses the program. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to try
> reinstalling JAWS 13? You might need some sighted assistance
> with
> this
> process since you will need to remove JAWS first before
> attempting
> a
> new installation and I'm not sure if it would fix your issue,
> but
> from
> past experience JAWS upgrades can be finicky sometimes and don't
> always install properly. Just a suggestion- Sorry I can't be of
> more
> specific help!
>
> Katie
>
>
> On 9/17/12, Jewel <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey guys,
> Ever since I upgraded to JAWS 13, I have noticed a lot more
> blanks
> between text (of any kind, link or non-link). Instead of having
> say
> Home, and then I arrow down and it goes to the next link, I get
> "Home,
> blank, blank, blank, Other Link).
>
> Another issue I have found is that it seems to be missing some
> buttons. For example, in Bookshare, I have to get a sighted
> person
> to
> click the "Download" button, because JAWS doesn't read it. I
> tried
> JAWS cursor, and that was no good. I don't know what else to
> try.
>
> Does anyone know if this is a known problem with JAWS 13, or is
> it
> just me? What can I do about this?
>
> Wondering,
> Jewel
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for
> nabs-l:
>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%4
> 0gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92
> %40gmail.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 07:43:01 -0700
> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible phones
> Message-ID: <EF324489090C417DA8A5F49374111A8A at BrandonsLaptop2>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=response
>
> Hello,
> 99% of the haven is accessible. So far, only the volume is not accessible.
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ashley Bramlett
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 6:27 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible phones
>
> Gloria,
> I haven't read all this thread, but it seems like most are recommending the
> I Phone and you do not want one.
> If you just need a phone, I understand that. The fancy I phone is so much
> more than a phone and you won't want to pay for internet service and all it
> has when you won't use it.
>
> I cannot answer that question. I use a verizon phone, and it hardly talks,
> so much of it is inaccessible. It will only talk when you get an incoming
> call by announcing the number and you can set it to announce the numbers as
> you dial; I think that is all is voiced.
>
> The accessible phone verizon has is the haven. Not sure if its still being
> made.
> You might want to just go to the store and ask the sales staff about
> accessibility. Ask them to show it to you; don't take their word that it
> talks to you. If they show you, then you know what it does.
> Also consider what you want in a phone. Do you just want to make calls on
> it? Do you feel you want or need to text with it?
> If you just want a phone, you really don't need a smart phone.
>
> I think companies really should do more to make accessible phones. Last
> time
> I looked for a phone, and verizon is my provider, I hardly found
> accessible
> phones. The only one I saw accessible was the haven, and it was sold
> online.
> So I could not see how accessible it was; but I heard even it was not all
> accessible, but the major functions of it would be.
> And if you're like me, you do not want a touch screen phone.
> Good luck finding a phone meeting your needs.
> Ashley
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gloria G
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 9:58 AM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: [nabs-l] accessible phones
>
> Hi all,
> I am checking out phones. Has anyone heard of the LG My Touch Q? If so, is
> it accessible? I talked to the carrier which is Teen Mobil, but I have had
> situations in which the carrier will say something is accessible or has
> speech capabilities and they do not and vice versa. Thanks for any help you
> can give.
> Gloria
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 10:49:56 -0400
> From: Andrew Edgcumbe <andrewjedg at gmail.com>
> To: nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [nabs-l] having a hard time fitting in at church
> Message-ID:
> <CAM342zZcrdcuHKk2-4622LgJ+ZXBpaYB3cw5sEaEbCg03+a_Ag at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hi nabs students readers
>
> I hope you all are doing well.
>
>
> Anyway
> I am struggling with fitting in at my church and things.
>
> I been having a hard time finding friends to talk to there and things.
>
> They all seem to talk to each other and just walk away from me and things.
> every time after the service is over they just talk to each other's
> friends and i am not really talked to much at all i am often left
> sitting alone sometimes they walk out of the church pew all together
> and things i get left behind allot i don't get included in going out
> to lunch and things like that.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 07:53:18 -0700
> From: Sarah <coastergirl92 at gmail.com>
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing
> list<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible phones
> Message-ID: <5059dc66.e7ea440a.4862.ffffc198 at mx.google.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> I am getting an Iphone soon. I would reccomend the Haven I've
> never had it but I hear it's very accessible.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 07:43:01 -0700
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible phones
>
> Hello,
> 99% of the haven is accessible. So far, only the volume is not
> accessible.
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ashley Bramlett
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 6:27 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible phones
>
> Gloria,
> I haven't read all this thread, but it seems like most are
> recommending the
> I Phone and you do not want one.
> If you just need a phone, I understand that. The fancy I phone
> is so much
> more than a phone and you won't want to pay for internet service
> and all it
> has when you won't use it.
>
> I cannot answer that question. I use a verizon phone, and it
> hardly talks,
> so much of it is inaccessible. It will only talk when you get an
> incoming
> call by announcing the number and you can set it to announce the
> numbers as
> you dial; I think that is all is voiced.
>
> The accessible phone verizon has is the haven. Not sure if its
> still being
> made.
> You might want to just go to the store and ask the sales staff
> about
> accessibility. Ask them to show it to you; don't take their word
> that it
> talks to you. If they show you, then you know what it does.
> Also consider what you want in a phone. Do you just want to make
> calls on
> it? Do you feel you want or need to text with it?
> If you just want a phone, you really don't need a smart phone.
>
> I think companies really should do more to make accessible
> phones. Last time
> I looked for a phone, and verizon is my provider, I hardly found
> accessible
> phones. The only one I saw accessible was the haven, and it was
> sold online.
> So I could not see how accessible it was; but I heard even it was
> not all
> accessible, but the major functions of it would be.
> And if you're like me, you do not want a touch screen phone.
> Good luck finding a phone meeting your needs.
> Ashley
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gloria G
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 9:58 AM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: [nabs-l] accessible phones
>
> Hi all,
> I am checking out phones. Has anyone heard of the LG My Touch Q?
> If so, is
> it accessible? I talked to the carrier which is Teen Mobil, but I
> have had
> situations in which the carrier will say something is accessible
> or has
> speech capabilities and they do not and vice versa. Thanks for
> any help you
> can give.
> Gloria
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for
> nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4
> 0earthlink.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for
> nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb
> iggs%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/coastergirl92
> %40gmail.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 11:03:54 -0300
> From: "Rania Ismail LMT" <raniaismail04 at gmail.com>
> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible phones
> Message-ID: <776A94F604F94976A62172E152792885 at userPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> What do you mean that part of the Haven is not accessable? I am able to
> change the settings of that if I want.
> Rania,
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Brandon Keith Biggs
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 11:43 AM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible phones
>
> Hello,
> 99% of the haven is accessible. So far, only the volume is not accessible.
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ashley Bramlett
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 6:27 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible phones
>
> Gloria,
> I haven't read all this thread, but it seems like most are recommending the
> I Phone and you do not want one.
> If you just need a phone, I understand that. The fancy I phone is so much
> more than a phone and you won't want to pay for internet service and all it
> has when you won't use it.
>
> I cannot answer that question. I use a verizon phone, and it hardly talks,
> so much of it is inaccessible. It will only talk when you get an incoming
> call by announcing the number and you can set it to announce the numbers as
> you dial; I think that is all is voiced.
>
> The accessible phone verizon has is the haven. Not sure if its still being
> made.
> You might want to just go to the store and ask the sales staff about
> accessibility. Ask them to show it to you; don't take their word that it
> talks to you. If they show you, then you know what it does.
> Also consider what you want in a phone. Do you just want to make calls on
> it? Do you feel you want or need to text with it?
> If you just want a phone, you really don't need a smart phone.
>
> I think companies really should do more to make accessible phones. Last
> time
> I looked for a phone, and verizon is my provider, I hardly found
> accessible
> phones. The only one I saw accessible was the haven, and it was sold
> online.
> So I could not see how accessible it was; but I heard even it was not all
> accessible, but the major functions of it would be.
> And if you're like me, you do not want a touch screen phone.
> Good luck finding a phone meeting your needs.
> Ashley
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gloria G
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 9:58 AM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: [nabs-l] accessible phones
>
> Hi all,
> I am checking out phones. Has anyone heard of the LG My Touch Q? If so, is
> it accessible? I talked to the carrier which is Teen Mobil, but I have had
> situations in which the carrier will say something is accessible or has
> speech capabilities and they do not and vice versa. Thanks for any help you
> can give.
> Gloria
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.
> net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmai
> l.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.co
> m
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 08:04:55 -0700
> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sighted
> societyat social gatherings
> Message-ID: <CFB4CDC1F1DE42A9BDD3C7156196320A at BrandonsLaptop2>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Hello,
> Unfortunately to change attitudes you need to be excepted.
> Considering many blind folks are just novices at the rules of the sighted
> world (Especially the congenitally blind), even years of lessons may not get
>
> them to the level to where they would be distressed.
> Also, lots of the stress is because sighted people themselves are unsure of
>
> the rules themselves. If someone purposely breaks a rule once or twice to
> get what they want, it is seen as brave. If they break the rules all the
> time, it is seen as weird. I totally believe men and women should learn the
>
> social norms for men and women. For example, men do not go around sitting in
>
> the splits. They save the splits for dance only. Also, there are rules for
> different body types. I'm sure there are many generalities that will hold
> true for many circumstance, and many of the rules will only be ways of
> communicating different information. For example, Guys should not wear very
>
> tight, stretchy pants with a shorter shirt unless they want to convey how
> big and... muscular they are.
> But frankly, again, most blind people once worked past their kinetic
> oddities, will be much more excepted in the world.
> For example, I'm trying really hard now to stop snapping my retainers,
> because I guess it really creeps people out... :(
> Once people learn the rules, they will be able to label anything new that
> pops up and work to remove the odd mannerism from their actions.
> Thank you,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marc Workman
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 7:37 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sighted societyat
>
> social gatherings
>
> Chris wrote,
> Therefore, it is important that we know the unwritten rules which our
> sighted society has made. If we don't know them and follow them, what does
>
> that say about us as blind people? It says we are weird, different,
> abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.
>
> Alternatively, perhaps it says that those rules are not natural, that they
> are the product of sighted people simply aping one another, and that they
> are arbitrary. I believe that such unwritten rules often needlessly cause
> huge amounts of anxiety, self-loathing, and anguish.
>
> We had a similar discussion on this list some time ago, particularly around
>
> the subject of so called "blindisms, and I put that term in quotes as a way
>
> of acknowledging that it is pejorative. I'm sure it could be found on line
> by anyone who is interested.
>
> Personally, I would rather live in a world where blind people are accepted
> and respected not simply to the extent that they can look and act like
> sighted people, but on the grounds that they are human beings possessing
> dignity and as equally worthy of respect as sighted people. The message
> shouldn't be, "hey, we can follow your rules, so you should accept us".
> Instead, the message should be, "we, like you, have many talents and
> weaknesses, feel pleasure and pain, reach our full potential through the
> formation of deep and meaningful relationships with other human beings, and
>
> your failure to treat us with respect and as equals is unfair,
> discriminatory, and immoral", to borrow from Mr. Lewis.
>
> By the way, I think this goes well beyond blind people fitting into sighted
>
> society. We are constantly policing one another's behaviour. Probably one of
>
> the more obvious examples of this has to do with gender. There are hundreds
>
> if not thousands of mostly unspoken rules about what makes a man a man and
> how real men ought to behave, and there are twice as many concerning women.
>
> These rules are enforced in subtle but effective ways, and the result is
> often a great deal of suffering for anyone who cannot, or chooses not to,
> conform. These gender rules are just as arbitrary as those around
> sighted/blind behaviour, and the effort similarly should be to relax and
> remove such rules, not to more explicitly and fervently teach boys and girls
>
> the so called right way to act.
>
> This is of course easier said than done, and failing to conform does
> unfortunately often result in suffering, such as missed social, volunteer,
> and employment opportunities. So I don't judge or condemn anyone who makes a
>
> serious effort to learn the unwritten rules of sighted society, just as I
> don't judge someone who wants to spend all of his or her time reading
> medical journals and desperately praying for a cure. It's hard being blind
> in the particular society in which we live, and conforming can make things a
>
> little bit easier. But I still think we should work more on changing
> attitudes and less on teaching blind people how to look and act like sighted
>
> people.
>
> Regards,
>
> Marc
> On 2012-09-14, at 3:04 PM, Chris Nusbaum <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Brandon and all,
>>
>> I'm taking the liberty here to change the subject of this thread, as if
>> we're going to discuss the topic which Brandon has brought up in his post,
>>
>> I think it would prevent confusion if we changed the subject to reflect
>> the actual topic of Brandon's message.
>>
>> Brandon, your idea about the NFB conducting some kind of instructional
>> seminar or workshop on social norms and how we can "fit in" with the
>> sighted public is a great one! I think you should talk with the NFB
>> leadership about this! I believe NOPBC (the parents division) has touched
>>
>> on this topic in their seminars at conventions. One of the topics at the
>>
>> parents seminar at the Maryland state convention is almost always social
>> skills, especially what sighted society has deemed socially acceptable and
>>
>> how we as blind people can fit in at social gatherings, conforming as best
>>
>> we can to the "norms" of society. I believe this is arguably more
>> important for blind students, as we are often in social gatherings (or
>> want to be in them) at our schools, with our friends, or in our
>> communities. Therefore, it is important that we know the unwritten rules
>>
>> which our sighted society has made. If we don't know them and follow
>> them, what does that say about us as blind people? It says we are weird,
>> different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc. These are the very
>> adjectives we in the Federation have been working to cut out from the
>> vocabulary of the public when in the context of blindness and blind
>> people. In other words, these are the very things we don't want sighted
>> people thinking about us. If this is how sighted people perceive us, then
>>
>> it puts our ability to get a job, volunteer in our community, and become
>> first-class citizens at risk. So, I think this would be a great thing for
>>
>> the NFB to do, and one which I'm kind of surprised we're not doing
>> already. Also, since this is an important topic for blind students,
>> perhaps "social skills and norms" could be the topic of a future NABS
>> membership call.
>>
>> Just my thoughts,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Date sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:15:16 -0700
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>
>> Hello,
>> We aren't promoting sex among students, we are promoting safe sex. There
>>
>> is
>> a huge difference. If the student division is the only one with some
>> practical sense about sexual activities, I'm a little scared... :)
>> I do agree though, sex, dating and excepted socializing among a sighted
>> community is a very big topic that is often times ignored by the blind
>> community.
>> I have been told by sighted TVIs that many blind folks (youth or not)
>> have
>> some very strange mannerisms and beliefs that are totally against the
>> grain
>> of sighted society. My mom in particular, who is a TVI, has suggested
>> that
>> the NFB should really give some instruction on how the sighted world
>> thinks.
>> Otherwise what will happen (and what has happened) is the world looks at
>> a
>> gathering of blind people and cringes because they are so weird. or a
>> sighted girl sees a blind guy and thinks she wants to talk to him and
>> when
>> she is about to sit down and say hi, the guy does something really weird
>> and
>> she turns around and walks a mile away.
>> This is a little different than the deal with the condoms, but both
>> sexual
>> health and social issues are topics that are very much in need of
>> attention
>> among blind individuals, and students in particular.
>> I feel strongly that having some active workshops on this that aren't
>> meant
>> to be uncomfortable, but still deal with the taboo problems would greatly
>> improve convention.
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Arielle Silverman
>> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:18 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>
>> Hi all,
>> I have joked in the past about how NABS should sell Brailled Whozit
>> condoms at convention! Kidding aside, though, there are probably some
>> NFB leaders with more conservative leanings, who might feel that NABS
>> selling condoms at convention would be promoting sexual activity among
>> young or unmarried blind students. I don't agree with that position,
>> but some people do and since anything NABS does is, by extension, an
>> NFB-sanctioned event, we would need to balance the benefits of
>> providing condoms against possibly upsetting the NFB leadership or
>> bringing on an unwanted political debate.
>> I would be more likely to support a NABS breakout session, at
>> Washington Seminar or elsewhere, about sexuality in general, and
>> perhaps include an opportunity to try putting a condom on the
>> proverbial banana or some such. When I was 15, I went to a diversity
>> camp (for sighted teens) and there was a sexuality workshop available
>> as one of several choices. They passed around condoms and in fact,
>> this was the first time I actually felt one. A general workshop about
>> sex, dating and etiquette, etc. might be worth having.
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 9/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hello,
>> This would be an awesome idea! Not only because many people have never
>> seen
>>
>> a condom, so they could finger the packages with labels without having to
>> be
>>
>> embarrassed, but when I was at the hotel I didn't run into any condoms in
>> the store. Granted I wasn't looking for them, but I was browsing...
>> Condoms,
>>
>> lube and Dental Dams, all labeled in Braille! We would also probably need
>> to
>>
>> provide guides for people on how to find the right way to put on a condom
>> or
>>
>> use a dental dam.
>> Another thing I didn't see at the NABS table is hot serial. The packing
>> guide in the nabs newsletter said to pack a ton of things and I for one
>> don't keep hot serial in the house and I don't shop at places that sell
>> hot
>>
>> serial, so wasn't able to grab a box. But I would have loved to buy a
>> box
>> for even $10 or more, the breakfasts there were $10 alone... (Then of
>> course
>>
>> we could sell bole and spoon packs for the poor folks who didn't bring
>> their
>>
>> own utensil's).
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Anmol Bhatia
>> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:28 AM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>
>>
>> You would be a good place to sell and buy condoms? At the NFB
>> convention...
>>
>> Perhaps Nabs should sell condoms at the NABS table. We can even braille
>> them
>>
>> so the perso can know what kind of condoms they have. lol
>>
>> Anmol
>>
>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps
>> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a
>> breeze
>> among flowers.
>> Hellen Keller
>>
>>
>> --- On Sun, 9/9/12, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> From: Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>, "National Association of Blind Students mailing
>> list"
>>
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Sunday, September 9, 2012, 10:54 PM
>> Hi, Brandon,
>>
>> I went into a place in Denver to buy a dildo yes, on
>> the bigger, ribbed side to use in the old fashioned bath tub
>> I had at the time, to get myself off with the faucet.
>> Traditionally, I need something in my ass, to cum. If I
>> remember, the folks in their wer very cool, look at the
>> blind girl going to by herself a dildo! Don't worry! If
>> you're relaxed, and cool about what you're doing so will be
>> the bookstore, personnel. Let us know how goes it,
>> okay? At 04:52 PM 9/8/2012, SA Mobile wrote:
>> Those are the best places to get stuff as the staff are
>> professional and are trained to make customers feel at ease.
>> Just make sure the shop is of good repute.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 08/09/2012, at 12:36 PM, "Brandon Keith Biggs"
>> <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>> Thank goodness my father was a nurse and when I
>> turned 18, he said addio to being in with me at the doctor.
>> I do find it amusing though that some doctors are actually
>> really uncomfortable touching me because I'm blind... That
>> only happened after my dad started leaving the room.
>> Thank you Arielle for those websites. I don't feel
>> that condoms are something I want to buy from a website I've
>> never heard of before unless someone I know has gotten or
>> knows that site is trust worthy.
>> I was told that flavored condoms were only to be
>> used in oral intercourse. The same is not for lube I
>> presume?
>> Also, has anyone ever gone into a sex store? How
>> was it as a blind shopper? Even from sighted people I hear
>> the experience is often not pleasant.
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle
>> Silverman
>> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2012 10:00 AM
>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>
>> Hi all,
>> I know the recent discussions about sex and dating
>> are kind of in a
>> gray area as to whether or not they're on-topic
>> for this list, since
>> most of the issues Koby brought up are not really
>> unique to blindness.
>> So if the moderators or Dave feel this is getting
>> too far afield, I
>> will happily respect your judgment. However, I
>> also think that
>> Brandon's question about where to get condoms is a
>> legitimate one and
>> that there might be other blind people out here,
>> including teenagers,
>> who have similar concerns about how to get
>> condoms, birth control or
>> sexual health information without a lot of
>> awkwardness or
>> embarrassment. It can be particularly difficult if
>> you have to depend
>> on someone else (especially parents) for
>> transportation which can make
>> going to a clinic or drugstore difficult.
>> There are a few places to buy condoms online,
>> including
>> www.condomania.com
>> www.undercovercondoms.com
>> and
>> www.condomdepot.com
>> Believe it or not, they also have some condom
>> choices at
>> www.amazon.com
>> If you go to your health center on campus for any
>> reason, it shouldn't
>> be a problem to ask a doctor or nurse there
>> about condoms.
>> I cannot answer the questions about when to begin
>> having sex with a
>> partner because that is a highly individual
>> decision. However, I feel
>> it important that anyone who is considering having
>> sex for the first
>> time ensure you understand what all of your
>> options are for preventing
>> pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases, the
>> advantages and
>> disadvantages of each option, and the proper way
>> to use condoms and
>> birth control. There are a couple different
>> websites with this kind
>> of information:
>> www.plannedparenthood.org
>> (includes live chat with a sexual health educator)
>> or
>> www.scarleteen.com
>> This issue is particularly close to my heart at
>> the moment because my
>> boyfriend's sister just had an unintended
>> pregnancy at a very
>> inopportune time (while still in college, with a
>> guy she had only
>> known for a few months) and was apparently taking
>> birth control pills,
>> but had not been taking them consistently. While I
>> don't believe that
>> sex should be feared, it is something that
>> takes some responsibility,
>> planning and foresight to ensure it is enjoyable
>> while minimizing the
>> risks. Also, while I won't go into details here,
>> there are other ways
>> to be physically intimate with someone that are
>> less risky, which
>> these online forums will talk about.
>> I also want to bring up an issue that is
>> somewhat relevant to sexual
>> health, which I experienced and I think that some
>> of you might also be
>> struggling with. This is the issue of having your
>> parents drive you to
>> doctors' appointments and then having them want to
>> sit in or even
>> participate in your appointments. Since I attended
>> college in my home
>> city, my mother always wanted to drive me to my
>> doctors' appointments
>> and would then want to come in and chat with the
>> doctor while he/she
>> was examining me. This was partly because my
>> parents and I saw many of
>> the same doctors and she often thought it was a
>> good opportunity to
>> ask the doctor a quick question about her own
>> health while she was
>> there, or because she was curious to see what the
>> doctor recommended
>> to me about a particular issue. I eventually
>> realized that while it
>> wasn't ill-intentioned, it was a violation of my
>> privacy as an adult
>> patient and I asked her to wait in the waiting
>> room while I was seeing
>> the doctor. I didn't actually take this stand
>> until I was 21 and in
>> hindsight I wish I had done it much earlier.
>> By the time you are 18,
>> unless you have a serious cognitive disability,
>> you have a right to
>> privacy of your medical information and it is
>> important to establish a
>> good doctor-patient relationship without a third
>> person interfering.
>> This is especially true when it comes to sexual
>> health and by the time
>> you are 18 or even 16, you will want to start
>> discussing your sexual
>> activities or questions with your doctors without
>> your parents being
>> around. You might also want to consider getting a
>> driver or even
>> taking the bus to medical appointments to avoid
>> this problem.
>> On a related note, by the time you are in high
>> school, you should know
>> the names of all medications you take on a
>> regular basis and any
>> chronic medical conditions you may have. If you
>> ever have to go to the
>> emergency room, this kind of information may
>> be requested of you.
>> Best,
>> Arielle
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 08:41:24 -0700
> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sighted
> societyatsocial gatherings
> Message-ID: <6F8D22BD1ED942BDB7A9D449AB7BCB7B at BrandonsLaptop2>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=response
>
> Hello,
> This is not really the idea. You are talking of stereotypes, we are talking
>
> about rules. It is more like women should not ask the guy on the date unless
>
> they wanted to be labeled as forward. Women should be free to hug and touch
>
> as much as they want for affection, but guys should leave their social
> touching to be used for great effect.
> In America it isn't that odd for women to kiss women if they are both best
> friends, but guys should not kiss one another unless they are from a
> different culture (French or something) where they have a special way of
> kissing on both cheeks, or want to be seen as gay.
>
> Stereotypical ideas of being a stay at home mom, finding a man who has a job
>
> and what not is more a lifestyle choice that says something about you being
>
> a go-getter or not.
> Frankly though, some stay at home parents are pretty amazing. Now with the
> advenchan of the internet, stay at home moms or dads can work from the home
>
> if they want, they are often leaders in PTAs, are very big in politics and
> do unbelievable amounts of things that working people could never do. But it
>
> is only a reflection of one's personality. How willing is one to doggedly
> search for answers to questions, learn new things, attend appointments, get
>
> up in the morning and actually get things done rather than falling into the
>
> pointless actions of playing games, watching TV, sitting and reading books
> or listening to the radio.
> Of course people can multi task and often times that is what people do, but
>
> again that takes discipline and many people don't have much of it.
> But it wouldn't heart to menschen the image that being a stay at home parent
>
> gives vs. working and the image marrying a man with a good job gives vs.
> not. Other than that it is personal choice like always. But because we
> aren't able to see bodies, I believe bodily and early adolescent and College
>
> behavioral norms should be studied first.
> (I don't know anyone except for very old people, who think women should not
>
> go into STEM... Some of the most world changing discoveries strictly came
> from women, especially in astronomy. (Has anyone heard of stars being more
> than 60 thousand light years away? That was because of a woman... :)
> I think the largest stereotype we need to break is that:
> Blind people look blind, are odd, helpless, can't work, don't do anything
> impressive except for the inspirations, shouldn't be displayed in public as
>
> standards of excellence, are ugly, are not safe, can't handle stairs and are
>
> not acceptable in the sighted world except under the label of blind.
> Blindness is only an inconvenience when you don't look blind, otherwise it
> is a label.
> I have met people who are convinced that I'm not blind. I've gone into
> auditions where people have no idea that I'm blind till I ask them if they
> have questions about my blindness. This is what it means for blindness to be
>
> an inconvenience. Oh yeah, by the way, I'm blind... "You're blind? Really?
> You don't look blind..."
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Beth
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 8:22 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sighted
> societyatsocial gatherings
>
> I've tried to avoid getting into this thread, but here goes:
> 1. Blind people acting like sighted people scares the crap out of
> me because it just does for some reason.
> 2. Girls' conformity rules are terrible: for instance, girls
> shouldn't be scientists. What does that statement say about us
> girls? Girls should be married to men with decent jobs. No, I
> will not marry a man with any job so I can be taken care of, and
> this isn't the friggin' 1800's. Girls and women can take care of
> themselves, and they can work and support families. Jason, my
> current bf, does not work and can't do what society says, be a
> man and work and get paid for the woman. Some societies demand
> that all men work and women stay home. We, Americans though we
> are, still have these demands on blind women. I as a blind woman
> cannot accept conformity or defeat due to womanhood. Since Jason
> can't work and follow society's rules of manhood, it's up to me
> to do it. Girls should not always do typing, nursing, or
> different "womanly" professions where they get paid less than
> ordinary men. Jason, due to his disability, does not work. I,
> due to mental illness, may never work. I want to work so bad,
> but where? Goodwill is out of the question. I'm not working for
> nothing or low wages because I'm a woman. And no way will I
> accept sexual harassment because I have breasts and different
> organs inside me. I as a blind woman will not accept rules
> saying "You will be taken care of. You will be a stay-at-home
> wife. You will be poor." No way.
> Beth
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:37:00 -0600
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
> sighted societyat social gatherings
>
> Chris wrote,
> Therefore, it is important that we know the unwritten rules which
> our sighted society has made. If we don't know them and follow
> them, what does that say about us as blind people? It says we are
> weird, different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.
>
> Alternatively, perhaps it says that those rules are not natural,
> that they are the product of sighted people simply aping one
> another, and that they are arbitrary. I believe that such
> unwritten rules often needlessly cause huge amounts of anxiety,
> self-loathing, and anguish.
>
> We had a similar discussion on this list some time ago,
> particularly around the subject of so called "blindisms, and I
> put that term in quotes as a way of acknowledging that it is
> pejorative. I'm sure it could be found on line by anyone who is
> interested.
>
> Personally, I would rather live in a world where blind people are
> accepted and respected not simply to the extent that they can
> look and act like sighted people, but on the grounds that they
> are human beings possessing dignity and as equally worthy of
> respect as sighted people. The message shouldn't be, "hey, we can
> follow your rules, so you should accept us". Instead, the message
> should be, "we, like you, have many talents and weaknesses, feel
> pleasure and pain, reach our full potential through the formation
> of deep and meaningful relationships with other human beings, and
> your failure to treat us with respect and as equals is unfair,
> discriminatory, and immoral", to borrow from Mr. Lewis.
>
> By the way, I think this goes well beyond blind people fitting
> into sighted society. We are constantly policing one another's
> behaviour. Probably one of the more obvious examples of this has
> to do with gender. There are hundreds if not thousands of mostly
> unspoken rules about what makes a man a man and how real men
> ought to behave, and there are twice as many concerning women.
> These rules are enforced in subtle but effective ways, and the
> result is often a great deal of suffering for anyone who cannot,
> or chooses not to, conform. These gender rules are just as
> arbitrary as those around sighted/blind behaviour, and the effort
> similarly should be to relax and remove such rules, not to more
> explicitly and fervently teach boys and girls the so called right
> way to act.
>
> This is of course easier said than done, and failing to conform
> does unfortunately often result in suffering, such as missed
> social, volunteer, and employment opportunities. So I don't judge
> or condemn anyone who makes a serious effort to learn the
> unwritten rules of sighted society, just as I don't judge someone
> who wants to spend all of his or her time reading medical
> journals and desperately praying for a cure. It's hard being
> blind in the particular society in which we live, and conforming
> can make things a little bit easier. But I still think we should
> work more on changing attitudes and less on teaching blind people
> how to look and act like sighted people.
>
> Regards,
>
> Marc
> On 2012-09-14, at 3:04 PM, Chris Nusbaum
> <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Brandon and all,
>
> I'm taking the liberty here to change the subject of this
> thread, as if we're going to discuss the topic which Brandon has
> brought up in his post, I think it would prevent confusion if we
> changed the subject to reflect the actual topic of Brandon's
> message.
>
> Brandon, your idea about the NFB conducting some kind of
> instructional seminar or workshop on social norms and how we can
> "fit in" with the sighted public is a great one! I think you
> should talk with the NFB leadership about this! I believe NOPBC
> (the parents division) has touched on this topic in their
> seminars at conventions. One of the topics at the parents
> seminar at the Maryland state convention is almost always social
> skills, especially what sighted society has deemed socially
> acceptable and how we as blind people can fit in at social
> gatherings, conforming as best we can to the "norms" of society.
> I believe this is arguably more important for blind students, as
> we are often in social gatherings (or want to be in them) at our
> schools, with our friends, or in our communities. Therefore, it
> is important that we know the unwritten rules which our sighted
> society has made. If we don't know them and follow them, what
> does that say about us as blind people? It says we are weird,
> different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc. These are the
> very adjectives we in the Federation have been working to cut out
> from the vocabulary of the public when in the context of
> blindness and blind people. In other words, these are the very
> things we don't want sighted people thinking about us. If this
> is how sighted people perceive us, then it puts our ability to
> get a job, volunteer in our community, and become first-class
> citizens at risk. So, I think this would be a great thing for
> the NFB to do, and one which I'm kind of surprised we're not
> doing already. Also, since this is an important topic for blind
> students, perhaps "social skills and norms" could be the topic of
> a future NABS membership call.
>
> Just my thoughts,
>
> Chris
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:15:16 -0700
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>
> Hello,
> We aren't promoting sex among students, we are promoting safe
> sex. There is
> a huge difference. If the student division is the only one with
> some
> practical sense about sexual activities, I'm a little scared...
> :)
> I do agree though, sex, dating and excepted socializing among a
> sighted
> community is a very big topic that is often times ignored by the
> blind
> community.
> I have been told by sighted TVIs that many blind folks (youth or
> not) have
> some very strange mannerisms and beliefs that are totally
> against the grain
> of sighted society. My mom in particular, who is a TVI, has
> suggested that
> the NFB should really give some instruction on how the sighted
> world thinks.
> Otherwise what will happen (and what has happened) is the world
> looks at a
> gathering of blind people and cringes because they are so weird.
> or a
> sighted girl sees a blind guy and thinks she wants to talk to
> him and when
> she is about to sit down and say hi, the guy does something
> really weird and
> she turns around and walks a mile away.
> This is a little different than the deal with the condoms, but
> both sexual
> health and social issues are topics that are very much in need
> of attention
> among blind individuals, and students in particular.
> I feel strongly that having some active workshops on this that
> aren't meant
> to be uncomfortable, but still deal with the taboo problems
> would greatly
> improve convention.
> Thank you,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Arielle Silverman
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:18 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>
> Hi all,
> I have joked in the past about how NABS should sell Brailled
> Whozit
> condoms at convention! Kidding aside, though, there are probably
> some
> NFB leaders with more conservative leanings, who might feel that
> NABS
> selling condoms at convention would be promoting sexual activity
> among
> young or unmarried blind students. I don't agree with that
> position,
> but some people do and since anything NABS does is, by
> extension, an
> NFB-sanctioned event, we would need to balance the benefits of
> providing condoms against possibly upsetting the NFB leadership
> or
> bringing on an unwanted political debate.
> I would be more likely to support a NABS breakout session, at
> Washington Seminar or elsewhere, about sexuality in general, and
> perhaps include an opportunity to try putting a condom on the
> proverbial banana or some such. When I was 15, I went to a
> diversity
> camp (for sighted teens) and there was a sexuality workshop
> available
> as one of several choices. They passed around condoms and in
> fact,
> this was the first time I actually felt one. A general workshop
> about
> sex, dating and etiquette, etc. might be worth having.
> Arielle
>
> On 9/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> Hello,
> This would be an awesome idea! Not only because many people have
> never
> seen
>
> a condom, so they could finger the packages with labels without
> having to
> be
>
> embarrassed, but when I was at the hotel I didn't run into any
> condoms in
> the store. Granted I wasn't looking for them, but I was
> browsing...
> Condoms,
>
> lube and Dental Dams, all labeled in Braille! We would also
> probably need
> to
>
> provide guides for people on how to find the right way to put on
> a condom
> or
>
> use a dental dam.
> Another thing I didn't see at the NABS table is hot serial. The
> packing
> guide in the nabs newsletter said to pack a ton of things and I
> for one
> don't keep hot serial in the house and I don't shop at places
> that sell
> hot
>
> serial, so wasn't able to grab a box. But I would have loved to
> buy a box
> for even $10 or more, the breakfasts there were $10 alone...
> (Then of
> course
>
> we could sell bole and spoon packs for the poor folks who didn't
> bring
> their
>
> own utensil's).
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anmol Bhatia
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:28 AM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>
>
> You would be a good place to sell and buy condoms? At the NFB
> convention...
>
> Perhaps Nabs should sell condoms at the NABS table. We can even
> braille
> them
>
> so the perso can know what kind of condoms they have. lol
>
> Anmol
>
> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad.
> Perhaps
> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague,
> like a breeze
> among flowers.
> Hellen Keller
>
>
> --- On Sun, 9/9/12, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> From: Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>, "National Association of Blind Students
> mailing
> list"
>
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date: Sunday, September 9, 2012, 10:54 PM
> Hi, Brandon,
>
> I went into a place in Denver to buy a dildo yes, on
> the bigger, ribbed side to use in the old fashioned bath tub
> I had at the time, to get myself off with the faucet.
> Traditionally, I need something in my ass, to cum. If I
> remember, the folks in their wer very cool, look at the
> blind girl going to by herself a dildo! Don't worry! If
> you're relaxed, and cool about what you're doing so will be
> the bookstore, personnel. Let us know how goes it,
> okay? At 04:52 PM 9/8/2012, SA Mobile wrote:
> Those are the best places to get stuff as the staff are
> professional and are trained to make customers feel at ease.
> Just make sure the shop is of good repute.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 08/09/2012, at 12:36 PM, "Brandon Keith Biggs"
> <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> Thank goodness my father was a nurse and when I
> turned 18, he said addio to being in with me at the doctor.
> I do find it amusing though that some doctors are actually
> really uncomfortable touching me because I'm blind... That
> only happened after my dad started leaving the room.
> Thank you Arielle for those websites. I don't feel
> that condoms are something I want to buy from a website I've
> never heard of before unless someone I know has gotten or
> knows that site is trust worthy.
> I was told that flavored condoms were only to be
> used in oral intercourse. The same is not for lube I
> presume?
> Also, has anyone ever gone into a sex store? How
> was it as a blind shopper? Even from sighted people I hear
> the experience is often not pleasant.
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle
> Silverman
> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2012 10:00 AM
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>
> Hi all,
> I know the recent discussions about sex and dating
> are kind of in a
> gray area as to whether or not they're on-topic
> for this list, since
> most of the issues Koby brought up are not really
> unique to blindness.
> So if the moderators or Dave feel this is getting
> too far afield, I
> will happily respect your judgment. However, I
> also think that
> Brandon's question about where to get condoms is a
> legitimate one and
> that there might be other blind people out here,
> including teenagers,
> who have similar concerns about how to get
> condoms, birth control or
> sexual health information without a lot of
> awkwardness or
> embarrassment. It can be particularly difficult if
> you have to depend
> on someone else (especially parents) for
> transportation which can make
> going to a clinic or drugstore difficult.
> There are a few places to buy condoms online,
> including
> www.condomania.com
> www.undercovercondoms.com
> and
> www.condomdepot.com
> Believe it or not, they also have some condom
> choices at
> www.amazon.com
> If you go to your health center on campus for any
> reason, it shouldn't
> be a problem to ask a doctor or nurse there
> about condoms.
> I cannot answer the questions about when to begin
> having sex with a
> partner because that is a highly individual
> decision. However, I feel
> it important that anyone who is considering having
> sex for the first
> time ensure you understand what all of your
> options are for preventing
> pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases, the
> advantages and
> disadvantages of each option, and the proper way
> to use condoms and
> birth control. There are a couple different
> websites with this kind
> of information:
> www.plannedparenthood.org
> (includes live chat with a sexual health educator)
> or
> www.scarleteen.com
> This issue is particularly close to my heart at
> the moment because my
> boyfriend's sister just had an unintended
> pregnancy at a very
> inopportune time (while still in college, with a
> guy she had only
> known for a few months) and was apparently taking
> birth control pills,
> but had not been taking them consistently. While I
> don't believe that
> sex should be feared, it is something that
> takes some responsibility,
> planning and foresight to ensure it is enjoyable
> while minimizing the
> risks. Also, while I won't go into details here,
> there are other ways
> to be physically intimate with someone that are
> less risky, which
> these online forums will talk about.
> I also want to bring up an issue that is
> somewhat relevant to sexual
> health, which I experienced and I think that some
> of you might also be
> struggling with. This is the issue of having your
> parents drive you to
> doctors' appointments and then having them want to
> sit in or even
> participate in your appointments. Since I attended
> college in my home
> city, my mother always wanted to drive me to my
> doctors' appointments
> and would then want to come in and chat with the
> doctor while he/she
> was examining me. This was partly because my
> parents and I saw many of
> the same doctors and she often thought it was a
> good opportunity to
> ask the doctor a quick question about her own
> health while she was
> there, or because she was curious to see what the
> doctor recommended
> to me about a particular issue. I eventually
> realized that while it
> wasn't ill-intentioned, it was a violation of my
> privacy as an adult
> patient and I asked her to wait in the waiting
> room while I was seeing
> the doctor. I didn't actually take this stand
> until I was 21 and in
> hindsight I wish I had done it much earlier.
> By the time you are 18,
> unless you have a serious cognitive disability,
> you have a right to
> privacy of your medical information and it is
> important to establish a
> good doctor-patient relationship without a third
> person interfering.
> This is especially true when it comes to sexual
> health and by the time
> you are 18 or even 16, you will want to start
> discussing your sexual
> activities or questions with your doctors without
> your parents being
> around. You might also want to consider getting a
> driver or even
> taking the bus to medical appointments to avoid
> this problem.
> On a related note, by the time you are in high
> school, you should know
> the names of all medications you take on a
> regular basis and any
> chronic medical conditions you may have. If you
> ever have to go to the
> emergency room, this kind of information may
> be requested of you.
> Best,
> Arielle
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 08:47:41 -0700
> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sighted
> societyat social gatherings
> Message-ID: <17DE310BE78D4B659AB847750CB47F53 at BrandonsLaptop2>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Hello,
> Frankly I don't know what the difference between the ACB's student and NFB's
>
> student division is. We are all dealing with exactly the same things. So I
> really believe we should get our sighted parents, friends and whatnot to be
>
> on the list to answer questions we may have. Many TVIs would jump at the
> chance to be on a list serve devoted to socializing.
> Just make a group, possibly:
> bseb at googlegroups.com or something :). Being socially acceptable blind or a
>
> cooler name LOL... Any ideas?
> I even think this should have a website with different articles that someone
>
> can brows to answer any personal questions they may have. Because this is
> such a big issue.
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Desiree Oudinot
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 9:29 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sighted societyat
>
> social gatherings
>
> And this is precisely why I wanted to create a separate list to
> discuss these kinds of issues and more. And, at the risk of offending
> people, I wanted it to be a separate list, separate from the NFB or
> ACB, I wanted it to be the place for every blind person, no matter
> their political or social status or whatever, to discuss how they fit
> in with society. Why does it offend you that blind people, whether
> they be men or women, should try to do their best to interact as
> sighted people do? Are there really specific guidelines we have to
> follow? I really want to understand this. I know as well as anyone
> what struggles we have to go through growing up just to be treated
> like human beings. First, we're blind people, then we're young, and
> the stereotypes surrounding young people of our generation are just as
> crippling as those surrounding being blind. So being dealt both as our
> hand in life is kind of a double whammy. I still struggle when someone
> actually treats me as an equal. I want to run away.
>
> On 9/14/12, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I've tried to avoid getting into this thread, but here goes:
>> 1. Blind people acting like sighted people scares the crap out of
>> me because it just does for some reason.
>> 2. Girls' conformity rules are terrible: for instance, girls
>> shouldn't be scientists. What does that statement say about us
>> girls? Girls should be married to men with decent jobs. No, I
>> will not marry a man with any job so I can be taken care of, and
>> this isn't the friggin' 1800's. Girls and women can take care of
>> themselves, and they can work and support families. Jason, my
>> current bf, does not work and can't do what society says, be a
>> man and work and get paid for the woman. Some societies demand
>> that all men work and women stay home. We, Americans though we
>> are, still have these demands on blind women. I as a blind woman
>> cannot accept conformity or defeat due to womanhood. Since Jason
>> can't work and follow society's rules of manhood, it's up to me
>> to do it. Girls should not always do typing, nursing, or
>> different "womanly" professions where they get paid less than
>> ordinary men. Jason, due to his disability, does not work. I,
>> due to mental illness, may never work. I want to work so bad,
>> but where? Goodwill is out of the question. I'm not working for
>> nothing or low wages because I'm a woman. And no way will I
>> accept sexual harassment because I have breasts and different
>> organs inside me. I as a blind woman will not accept rules
>> saying "You will be taken care of. You will be a stay-at-home
>> wife. You will be poor." No way.
>> Beth
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Date sent: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:37:00 -0600
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
>> sighted societyat social gatherings
>>
>> Chris wrote,
>> Therefore, it is important that we know the unwritten rules which
>> our sighted society has made. If we don't know them and follow
>> them, what does that say about us as blind people? It says we are
>> weird, different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.
>>
>> Alternatively, perhaps it says that those rules are not natural,
>> that they are the product of sighted people simply aping one
>> another, and that they are arbitrary. I believe that such
>> unwritten rules often needlessly cause huge amounts of anxiety,
>> self-loathing, and anguish.
>>
>> We had a similar discussion on this list some time ago,
>> particularly around the subject of so called "blindisms, and I
>> put that term in quotes as a way of acknowledging that it is
>> pejorative. I'm sure it could be found on line by anyone who is
>> interested.
>>
>> Personally, I would rather live in a world where blind people are
>> accepted and respected not simply to the extent that they can
>> look and act like sighted people, but on the grounds that they
>> are human beings possessing dignity and as equally worthy of
>> respect as sighted people. The message shouldn't be, "hey, we can
>> follow your rules, so you should accept us". Instead, the message
>> should be, "we, like you, have many talents and weaknesses, feel
>> pleasure and pain, reach our full potential through the formation
>> of deep and meaningful relationships with other human beings, and
>> your failure to treat us with respect and as equals is unfair,
>> discriminatory, and immoral", to borrow from Mr. Lewis.
>>
>> By the way, I think this goes well beyond blind people fitting
>> into sighted society. We are constantly policing one another's
>> behaviour. Probably one of the more obvious examples of this has
>> to do with gender. There are hundreds if not thousands of mostly
>> unspoken rules about what makes a man a man and how real men
>> ought to behave, and there are twice as many concerning women.
>> These rules are enforced in subtle but effective ways, and the
>> result is often a great deal of suffering for anyone who cannot,
>> or chooses not to, conform. These gender rules are just as
>> arbitrary as those around sighted/blind behaviour, and the effort
>> similarly should be to relax and remove such rules, not to more
>> explicitly and fervently teach boys and girls the so called right
>> way to act.
>>
>> This is of course easier said than done, and failing to conform
>> does unfortunately often result in suffering, such as missed
>> social, volunteer, and employment opportunities. So I don't judge
>> or condemn anyone who makes a serious effort to learn the
>> unwritten rules of sighted society, just as I don't judge someone
>> who wants to spend all of his or her time reading medical
>> journals and desperately praying for a cure. It's hard being
>> blind in the particular society in which we live, and conforming
>> can make things a little bit easier. But I still think we should
>> work more on changing attitudes and less on teaching blind people
>> how to look and act like sighted people.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Marc
>> On 2012-09-14, at 3:04 PM, Chris Nusbaum
>> <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Brandon and all,
>>
>> I'm taking the liberty here to change the subject of this
>> thread, as if we're going to discuss the topic which Brandon has
>> brought up in his post, I think it would prevent confusion if we
>> changed the subject to reflect the actual topic of Brandon's
>> message.
>>
>> Brandon, your idea about the NFB conducting some kind of
>> instructional seminar or workshop on social norms and how we can
>> "fit in" with the sighted public is a great one! I think you
>> should talk with the NFB leadership about this! I believe NOPBC
>> (the parents division) has touched on this topic in their
>> seminars at conventions. One of the topics at the parents
>> seminar at the Maryland state convention is almost always social
>> skills, especially what sighted society has deemed socially
>> acceptable and how we as blind people can fit in at social
>> gatherings, conforming as best we can to the "norms" of society.
>> I believe this is arguably more important for blind students, as
>> we are often in social gatherings (or want to be in them) at our
>> schools, with our friends, or in our communities. Therefore, it
>> is important that we know the unwritten rules which our sighted
>> society has made. If we don't know them and follow them, what
>> does that say about us as blind people? It says we are weird,
>> different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc. These are the
>> very adjectives we in the Federation have been working to cut out
>> from the vocabulary of the public when in the context of
>> blindness and blind people. In other words, these are the very
>> things we don't want sighted people thinking about us. If this
>> is how sighted people perceive us, then it puts our ability to
>> get a job, volunteer in our community, and become first-class
>> citizens at risk. So, I think this would be a great thing for
>> the NFB to do, and one which I'm kind of surprised we're not
>> doing already. Also, since this is an important topic for blind
>> students, perhaps "social skills and norms" could be the topic of
>> a future NABS membership call.
>>
>> Just my thoughts,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Date sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:15:16 -0700
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>
>> Hello,
>> We aren't promoting sex among students, we are promoting safe
>> sex. There is
>> a huge difference. If the student division is the only one with
>> some
>> practical sense about sexual activities, I'm a little scared...
>> :)
>> I do agree though, sex, dating and excepted socializing among a
>> sighted
>> community is a very big topic that is often times ignored by the
>> blind
>> community.
>> I have been told by sighted TVIs that many blind folks (youth or
>> not) have
>> some very strange mannerisms and beliefs that are totally
>> against the grain
>> of sighted society. My mom in particular, who is a TVI, has
>> suggested that
>> the NFB should really give some instruction on how the sighted
>> world thinks.
>> Otherwise what will happen (and what has happened) is the world
>> looks at a
>> gathering of blind people and cringes because they are so weird.
>> or a
>> sighted girl sees a blind guy and thinks she wants to talk to
>> him and when
>> she is about to sit down and say hi, the guy does something
>> really weird and
>> she turns around and walks a mile away.
>> This is a little different than the deal with the condoms, but
>> both sexual
>> health and social issues are topics that are very much in need
>> of attention
>> among blind individuals, and students in particular.
>> I feel strongly that having some active workshops on this that
>> aren't meant
>> to be uncomfortable, but still deal with the taboo problems
>> would greatly
>> improve convention.
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Arielle Silverman
>> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:18 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>
>> Hi all,
>> I have joked in the past about how NABS should sell Brailled
>> Whozit
>> condoms at convention! Kidding aside, though, there are probably
>> some
>> NFB leaders with more conservative leanings, who might feel that
>> NABS
>> selling condoms at convention would be promoting sexual activity
>> among
>> young or unmarried blind students. I don't agree with that
>> position,
>> but some people do and since anything NABS does is, by
>> extension, an
>> NFB-sanctioned event, we would need to balance the benefits of
>> providing condoms against possibly upsetting the NFB leadership
>> or
>> bringing on an unwanted political debate.
>> I would be more likely to support a NABS breakout session, at
>> Washington Seminar or elsewhere, about sexuality in general, and
>> perhaps include an opportunity to try putting a condom on the
>> proverbial banana or some such. When I was 15, I went to a
>> diversity
>> camp (for sighted teens) and there was a sexuality workshop
>> available
>> as one of several choices. They passed around condoms and in
>> fact,
>> this was the first time I actually felt one. A general workshop
>> about
>> sex, dating and etiquette, etc. might be worth having.
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 9/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> Hello,
>> This would be an awesome idea! Not only because many people have
>> never
>> seen
>>
>> a condom, so they could finger the packages with labels without
>> having to
>> be
>>
>> embarrassed, but when I was at the hotel I didn't run into any
>> condoms in
>> the store. Granted I wasn't looking for them, but I was
>> browsing...
>> Condoms,
>>
>> lube and Dental Dams, all labeled in Braille! We would also
>> probably need
>> to
>>
>> provide guides for people on how to find the right way to put on
>> a condom
>> or
>>
>> use a dental dam.
>> Another thing I didn't see at the NABS table is hot serial. The
>> packing
>> guide in the nabs newsletter said to pack a ton of things and I
>> for one
>> don't keep hot serial in the house and I don't shop at places
>> that sell
>> hot
>>
>> serial, so wasn't able to grab a box. But I would have loved to
>> buy a box
>> for even $10 or more, the breakfasts there were $10 alone...
>> (Then of
>> course
>>
>> we could sell bole and spoon packs for the poor folks who didn't
>> bring
>> their
>>
>> own utensil's).
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Anmol Bhatia
>> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:28 AM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>
>>
>> You would be a good place to sell and buy condoms? At the NFB
>> convention...
>>
>> Perhaps Nabs should sell condoms at the NABS table. We can even
>> braille
>> them
>>
>> so the perso can know what kind of condoms they have. lol
>>
>> Anmol
>>
>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad.
>> Perhaps
>> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague,
>> like a breeze
>> among flowers.
>> Hellen Keller
>>
>>
>> --- On Sun, 9/9/12, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> From: Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>, "National Association of Blind Students
>> mailing
>> list"
>>
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Sunday, September 9, 2012, 10:54 PM
>> Hi, Brandon,
>>
>> I went into a place in Denver to buy a dildo yes, on
>> the bigger, ribbed side to use in the old fashioned bath tub
>> I had at the time, to get myself off with the faucet.
>> Traditionally, I need something in my ass, to cum. If I
>> remember, the folks in their wer very cool, look at the
>> blind girl going to by herself a dildo! Don't worry! If
>> you're relaxed, and cool about what you're doing so will be
>> the bookstore, personnel. Let us know how goes it,
>> okay? At 04:52 PM 9/8/2012, SA Mobile wrote:
>> Those are the best places to get stuff as the staff are
>> professional and are trained to make customers feel at ease.
>> Just make sure the shop is of good repute.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 08/09/2012, at 12:36 PM, "Brandon Keith Biggs"
>> <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>> Thank goodness my father was a nurse and when I
>> turned 18, he said addio to being in with me at the doctor.
>> I do find it amusing though that some doctors are actually
>> really uncomfortable touching me because I'm blind... That
>> only happened after my dad started leaving the room.
>> Thank you Arielle for those websites. I don't feel
>> that condoms are something I want to buy from a website I've
>> never heard of before unless someone I know has gotten or
>> knows that site is trust worthy.
>> I was told that flavored condoms were only to be
>> used in oral intercourse. The same is not for lube I
>> presume?
>> Also, has anyone ever gone into a sex store? How
>> was it as a blind shopper? Even from sighted people I hear
>> the experience is often not pleasant.
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle
>> Silverman
>> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2012 10:00 AM
>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>
>> Hi all,
>> I know the recent discussions about sex and dating
>> are kind of in a
>> gray area as to whether or not they're on-topic
>> for this list, since
>> most of the issues Koby brought up are not really
>> unique to blindness.
>> So if the moderators or Dave feel this is getting
>> too far afield, I
>> will happily respect your judgment. However, I
>> also think that
>> Brandon's question about where to get condoms is a
>> legitimate one and
>> that there might be other blind people out here,
>> including teenagers,
>> who have similar concerns about how to get
>> condoms, birth control or
>> sexual health information without a lot of
>> awkwardness or
>> embarrassment. It can be particularly difficult if
>> you have to depend
>> on someone else (especially parents) for
>> transportation which can make
>> going to a clinic or drugstore difficult.
>> There are a few places to buy condoms online,
>> including
>> www.condomania.com
>> www.undercovercondoms.com
>> and
>> www.condomdepot.com
>> Believe it or not, they also have some condom
>> choices at
>> www.amazon.com
>> If you go to your health center on campus for any
>> reason, it shouldn't
>> be a problem to ask a doctor or nurse there
>> about condoms.
>> I cannot answer the questions about when to begin
>> having sex with a
>> partner because that is a highly individual
>> decision. However, I feel
>> it important that anyone who is considering having
>> sex for the first
>> time ensure you understand what all of your
>> options are for preventing
>> pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases, the
>> advantages and
>> disadvantages of each option, and the proper way
>> to use condoms and
>> birth control. There are a couple different
>> websites with this kind
>> of information:
>> www.plannedparenthood.org
>> (includes live chat with a sexual health educator)
>> or
>> www.scarleteen.com
>> This issue is particularly close to my heart at
>> the moment because my
>> boyfriend's sister just had an unintended
>> pregnancy at a very
>> inopportune time (while still in college, with a
>> guy she had only
>> known for a few months) and was apparently taking
>> birth control pills,
>> but had not been taking them consistently. While I
>> don't believe that
>> sex should be feared, it is something that
>> takes some responsibility,
>> planning and foresight to ensure it is enjoyable
>> while minimizing the
>> risks. Also, while I won't go into details here,
>> there are other ways
>> to be physically intimate with someone that are
>> less risky, which
>> these online forums will talk about.
>> I also want to bring up an issue that is
>> somewhat relevant to sexual
>> health, which I experienced and I think that some
>> of you might also be
>> struggling with. This is the issue of having your
>> parents drive you to
>> doctors' appointments and then having them want to
>> sit in or even
>> participate in your appointments. Since I attended
>> college in my home
>> city, my mother always wanted to drive me to my
>> doctors' appointments
>> and would then want to come in and chat with the
>> doctor while he/she
>> was examining me. This was partly because my
>> parents and I saw many of
>> the same doctors and she often thought it was a
>> good opportunity to
>> ask the doctor a quick question about her own
>> health while she was
>> there, or because she was curious to see what the
>> doctor recommended
>> to me about a particular issue. I eventually
>> realized that while it
>> wasn't ill-intentioned, it was a violation of my
>> privacy as an adult
>> patient and I asked her to wait in the waiting
>> room while I was seeing
>> the doctor. I didn't actually take this stand
>> until I was 21 and in
>> hindsight I wish I had done it much earlier.
>> By the time you are 18,
>> unless you have a serious cognitive disability,
>> you have a right to
>> privacy of your medical information and it is
>> important to establish a
>> good doctor-patient relationship without a third
>> person interfering.
>> This is especially true when it comes to sexual
>> health and by the time
>> you are 18 or even 16, you will want to start
>> discussing your sexual
>> activities or questions with your doctors without
>> your parents being
>> around. You might also want to consider getting a
>> driver or even
>> taking the bus to medical appointments to avoid
>> this problem.
>> On a related note, by the time you are in high
>> school, you should know
>> the names of all medications you take on a
>> regular basis and any
>> chronic medical conditions you may have. If you
>> ever have to go to the
>> emergency room, this kind of information may
>> be requested of you.
>> Best,
>> Arielle
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithbiggs%40gmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 08:53:39 -0700
> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sighted
> societyatsocial gatherings
> Message-ID: <3E46F6FAE20E49D39090834344E12B0F at BrandonsLaptop2>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=response
>
> Hello,
> I think our problem is we are erm... blind...
> It would be amazingly helpful if we got a sighted TVI to come in and give us
>
> their thoughts.
> We should make the list and then I can give the TVIs I know a ping.
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ashley Bramlett
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 10:14 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sighted
> societyatsocial gatherings
>
> Chris,
> Be careful about spouting off ideas and perhaps preaching. I suppose not
> conforming makes us look weird,
> incompetent and abnormal. But just what do you want a seminar to be?
> No, I don't think this topic lends itself to a conference call. Just
> exactly
> how would you convey the info? If we are going to discuss fashion or how to
> act this is best done by modeling. We need to be shown and have
> descriptions. So it has to be hands on and a phone conference just doesn't
> do this well IMO.
>
> Also, Chris since you are young and used college social gatherings as an
> example of fitting in, I wanted to inform you that
> gatherings are rather informal. I doubt there are many unspoken rules
> there;
> I'm pretty perceptive and I even asked other students about the scene
> privately afterward. They dress like college students on campus which
> generally means with t shirts and blue jeans. Some students wear t shirts
> and athletic style shorts. Some dress in v neck or collared shirts. Most
> students wear sneakers or sandles depending partly on weather and confort.
>
> The main rules I see are those followed anywhere a group gathers, rules of
> respecting each other. Rules such as if there is food, wait your turn for
> it
> to be passed or wait in line, depends on how the food is handled. For
> instance at my bible study meetings. we passed food around the room on a
> plate or set it on the little coffee table in the middle of the room for
> people to walk to.
> Rules also included talking in an indoor voice since other activities often
> were going on in other rooms,
> listening to each other, do not cut others off, waiting your turn to speak,
> and don't leave early unless you have somewhere important to go. Oh, and no
> assigned seating; first come, first served.
>
> I mention this so you don't have the impression that social gatherings are
> these formal times with many procedures and policies to follow. Social
> gatherings are simple a place to get together and have fun and share
> information; they are just that-- to socialize.
> Other than common curtesy, I cannot think of many unspoken rules. Now if
> you
> go to other more formal settings, big difference!
> A church, restaurant, a cocktail party, a reception, a more formal dance
> are
> examples of more formal unspoken rules in those settings.
>
> If we did a seminar, we would have to point out that these norms pertain to
> particular settings. What is acceptable one place is not in another. I
> struggle to find out norms in places too. I might have to ask someone and
> listen more to find out what is going on.
> It seems to me that sighted people learn new norms by observation and for
> me
> it takes a few times of observing a situation to figure out a pattern and
> discern their norms.
>
> Ashley
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Nusbaum
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 5:04 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sighted society
> atsocial gatherings
>
> Hi Brandon and all,
>
> I'm taking the liberty here to change the subject of this thread,
> as if we're going to discuss the topic which Brandon has brought
> up in his post, I think it would prevent confusion if we changed
> the subject to reflect the actual topic of Brandon's message.
>
> Brandon, your idea about the NFB conducting some kind of
> instructional seminar or workshop on social norms and how we can
> "fit in" with the sighted public is a great one! I think you
> should talk with the NFB leadership about this! I believe NOPBC
> (the parents division) has touched on this topic in their
> seminars at conventions. One of the topics at the parents
> seminar at the Maryland state convention is almost always social
> skills, especially what sighted society has deemed socially
> acceptable and how we as blind people can fit in at social
> gatherings, conforming as best we can to the "norms" of society.
> I believe this is arguably more important for blind students, as
> we are often in social gatherings (or want to be in them) at our
> schools, with our friends, or in our communities. Therefore, it
> is important that we know the unwritten rules which our sighted
> society has made. If we don't know them and follow them, what
> does that say about us as blind people? It says we are weird,
> different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc. These are the
> very adjectives we in the Federation have been working to cut out
> from the vocabulary of the public when in the context of
> blindness and blind people. In other words, these are the very
> things we don't want sighted people thinking about us. If this
> is how sighted people perceive us, then it puts our ability to
> get a job, volunteer in our community, and become first-class
> citizens at risk. So, I think this would be a great thing for
> the NFB to do, and one which I'm kind of surprised we're not
> doing already. Also, since this is an important topic for blind
> students, perhaps "social skills and norms" could be the topic of
> a future NABS membership call.
>
> Just my thoughts,
>
> Chris
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:15:16 -0700
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>
> Hello,
> We aren't promoting sex among students, we are promoting safe
> sex. There is
> a huge difference. If the student division is the only one with
> some
> practical sense about sexual activities, I'm a little scared...
> :)
> I do agree though, sex, dating and excepted socializing among a
> sighted
> community is a very big topic that is often times ignored by the
> blind
> community.
> I have been told by sighted TVIs that many blind folks (youth or
> not) have
> some very strange mannerisms and beliefs that are totally against
> the grain
> of sighted society. My mom in particular, who is a TVI, has
> suggested that
> the NFB should really give some instruction on how the sighted
> world thinks.
> Otherwise what will happen (and what has happened) is the world
> looks at a
> gathering of blind people and cringes because they are so weird.
> or a
> sighted girl sees a blind guy and thinks she wants to talk to him
> and when
> she is about to sit down and say hi, the guy does something
> really weird and
> she turns around and walks a mile away.
> This is a little different than the deal with the condoms, but
> both sexual
> health and social issues are topics that are very much in need of
> attention
> among blind individuals, and students in particular.
> I feel strongly that having some active workshops on this that
> aren't meant
> to be uncomfortable, but still deal with the taboo problems would
> greatly
> improve convention.
> Thank you,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Arielle Silverman
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:18 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>
> Hi all,
> I have joked in the past about how NABS should sell Brailled
> Whozit
> condoms at convention! Kidding aside, though, there are probably
> some
> NFB leaders with more conservative leanings, who might feel that
> NABS
> selling condoms at convention would be promoting sexual activity
> among
> young or unmarried blind students. I don't agree with that
> position,
> but some people do and since anything NABS does is, by extension,
> an
> NFB-sanctioned event, we would need to balance the benefits of
> providing condoms against possibly upsetting the NFB leadership
> or
> bringing on an unwanted political debate.
> I would be more likely to support a NABS breakout session, at
> Washington Seminar or elsewhere, about sexuality in general, and
> perhaps include an opportunity to try putting a condom on the
> proverbial banana or some such. When I was 15, I went to a
> diversity
> camp (for sighted teens) and there was a sexuality workshop
> available
> as one of several choices. They passed around condoms and in
> fact,
> this was the first time I actually felt one. A general workshop
> about
> sex, dating and etiquette, etc. might be worth having.
> Arielle
>
> On 9/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> Hello,
> This would be an awesome idea! Not only because many people have
> never
> seen
>
> a condom, so they could finger the packages with labels without
> having to
> be
>
> embarrassed, but when I was at the hotel I didn't run into any
> condoms in
> the store. Granted I wasn't looking for them, but I was
> browsing...
> Condoms,
>
> lube and Dental Dams, all labeled in Braille! We would also
> probably need
> to
>
> provide guides for people on how to find the right way to put on
> a condom
> or
>
> use a dental dam.
> Another thing I didn't see at the NABS table is hot serial. The
> packing
> guide in the nabs newsletter said to pack a ton of things and I
> for one
> don't keep hot serial in the house and I don't shop at places
> that sell
> hot
>
> serial, so wasn't able to grab a box. But I would have loved to
> buy a box
> for even $10 or more, the breakfasts there were $10 alone...
> (Then of
> course
>
> we could sell bole and spoon packs for the poor folks who didn't
> bring
> their
>
> own utensil's).
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anmol Bhatia
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:28 AM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>
>
> You would be a good place to sell and buy condoms? At the NFB
> convention...
>
> Perhaps Nabs should sell condoms at the NABS table. We can even
> braille
> them
>
> so the perso can know what kind of condoms they have. lol
>
> Anmol
>
> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad.
> Perhaps
> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague,
> like a breeze
> among flowers.
> Hellen Keller
>
>
> --- On Sun, 9/9/12, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> From: Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>, "National Association of Blind Students
> mailing
> list"
>
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date: Sunday, September 9, 2012, 10:54 PM
> Hi, Brandon,
>
> I went into a place in Denver to buy a dildo yes, on
> the bigger, ribbed side to use in the old fashioned bath tub
> I had at the time, to get myself off with the faucet.
> Traditionally, I need something in my ass, to cum. If I
> remember, the folks in their wer very cool, look at the
> blind girl going to by herself a dildo! Don't worry! If
> you're relaxed, and cool about what you're doing so will be
> the bookstore, personnel. Let us know how goes it,
> okay? At 04:52 PM 9/8/2012, SA Mobile wrote:
> Those are the best places to get stuff as the staff are
> professional and are trained to make customers feel at ease.
> Just make sure the shop is of good repute.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 08/09/2012, at 12:36 PM, "Brandon Keith Biggs"
> <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> Thank goodness my father was a nurse and when I
> turned 18, he said addio to being in with me at the doctor.
> I do find it amusing though that some doctors are actually
> really uncomfortable touching me because I'm blind... That
> only happened after my dad started leaving the room.
> Thank you Arielle for those websites. I don't feel
> that condoms are something I want to buy from a website I've
> never heard of before unless someone I know has gotten or
> knows that site is trust worthy.
> I was told that flavored condoms were only to be
> used in oral intercourse. The same is not for lube I
> presume?
> Also, has anyone ever gone into a sex store? How
> was it as a blind shopper? Even from sighted people I hear
> the experience is often not pleasant.
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle
> Silverman
> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2012 10:00 AM
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>
> Hi all,
> I know the recent discussions about sex and dating
> are kind of in a
> gray area as to whether or not they're on-topic
> for this list, since
> most of the issues Koby brought up are not really
> unique to blindness.
> So if the moderators or Dave feel this is getting
> too far afield, I
> will happily respect your judgment. However, I
> also think that
> Brandon's question about where to get condoms is a
> legitimate one and
> that there might be other blind people out here,
> including teenagers,
> who have similar concerns about how to get
> condoms, birth control or
> sexual health information without a lot of
> awkwardness or
> embarrassment. It can be particularly difficult if
> you have to depend
> on someone else (especially parents) for
> transportation which can make
> going to a clinic or drugstore difficult.
> There are a few places to buy condoms online,
> including
> www.condomania.com
> www.undercovercondoms.com
> and
> www.condomdepot.com
> Believe it or not, they also have some condom
> choices at
> www.amazon.com
> If you go to your health center on campus for any
> reason, it shouldn't
> be a problem to ask a doctor or nurse there
> about condoms.
> I cannot answer the questions about when to begin
> having sex with a
> partner because that is a highly individual
> decision. However, I feel
> it important that anyone who is considering having
> sex for the first
> time ensure you understand what all of your
> options are for preventing
> pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases, the
> advantages and
> disadvantages of each option, and the proper way
> to use condoms and
> birth control. There are a couple different
> websites with this kind
> of information:
> www.plannedparenthood.org
> (includes live chat with a sexual health educator)
> or
> www.scarleteen.com
> This issue is particularly close to my heart at
> the moment because my
> boyfriend's sister just had an unintended
> pregnancy at a very
> inopportune time (while still in college, with a
> guy she had only
> known for a few months) and was apparently taking
> birth control pills,
> but had not been taking them consistently. While I
> don't believe that
> sex should be feared, it is something that
> takes some responsibility,
> planning and foresight to ensure it is enjoyable
> while minimizing the
> risks. Also, while I won't go into details here,
> there are other ways
> to be physically intimate with someone that are
> less risky, which
> these online forums will talk about.
> I also want to bring up an issue that is
> somewhat relevant to sexual
> health, which I experienced and I think that some
> of you might also be
> struggling with. This is the issue of having your
> parents drive you to
> doctors' appointments and then having them want to
> sit in or even
> participate in your appointments. Since I attended
> college in my home
> city, my mother always wanted to drive me to my
> doctors' appointments
> and would then want to come in and chat with the
> doctor while he/she
> was examining me. This was partly because my
> parents and I saw many of
> the same doctors and she often thought it was a
> good opportunity to
> ask the doctor a quick question about her own
> health while she was
> there, or because she was curious to see what the
> doctor recommended
> to me about a particular issue. I eventually
> realized that while it
> wasn't ill-intentioned, it was a violation of my
> privacy as an adult
> patient and I asked her to wait in the waiting
> room while I was seeing
> the doctor. I didn't actually take this stand
> until I was 21 and in
> hindsight I wish I had done it much earlier.
> By the time you are 18,
> unless you have a serious cognitive disability,
> you have a right to
> privacy of your medical information and it is
> important to establish a
> good doctor-patient relationship without a third
> person interfering.
> This is especially true when it comes to sexual
> health and by the time
> you are 18 or even 16, you will want to start
> discussing your sexual
> activities or questions with your doctors without
> your parents being
> around. You might also want to consider getting a
> driver or even
> taking the bus to medical appointments to avoid
> this problem.
> On a related note, by the time you are in high
> school, you should know
> the names of all medications you take on a
> regular basis and any
> chronic medical conditions you may have. If you
> ever have to go to the
> emergency room, this kind of information may
> be requested of you.
> Best,
> Arielle
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 09:13:13 -0700
> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sighted
> societyatsocial gatherings
> Message-ID: <1C65EED823E84228A561FC25BF8D1EED at BrandonsLaptop2>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=response
>
> Hello,
> I run on my own all the time...
> If one is in the city it is best to find a track, but I lived in the country
>
> growing up and I just ran along back roads, making sure I wasn't in the way
>
> of the big tractors.
> This is something the social list can deal with as well. It is a stereotype
>
> that blind people need guides to ride bikes or run... I only started tandem
>
> biking now I live in the city and there is way too much traffic and stop
> lights for me to memorize.
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ashley Bramlett
> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 2:51 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sighted
> societyatsocial gatherings
>
> Desiree,
> That's too bad. I wonder what sort of basis your parents had to tell you
> such things. It sounds like they did not know successful blind people. It
> sounds like they did not support you in your quest to grow. Those are
> really
> put downs-- to tell someone they will grow up to be worthless. As for fat,
> that does have an element of truth. Most blind people I encounter are
> physically inactive and yes are overweight. Its harder for us to be active
> as we need a partner to run or bike outside. Fitness machines are getting
> fancier with screens to set up the equipment.
> You have to memorize what button does what to operate those lovely cardio
> machines.
>
> Anyway, on the subject of self esteem and being worth something, you have
> to
> find your niche and be around people. Social skills develop via experience.
> I still haven't figured out how to join an existing conversation without
> cutting someone else off. I can better join a conversation of two people;
> any more than that, its hard to jump in it.
> You can definitely grow up to be worth something. Following norms is just
> one part of fitting in. Other factors include having something to give in
> the friendship, being a pleasant person and living in a place where you can
> travel around. Arielle already mentioned that one.
> One more thing is that I think we need to create opportunities for
> ourselves
> to use our abilities and show the community what we can do. So joining a
> non
> blindness club or volunteering with an organization you like will help out
> a
> lot. You will be more well rounded then and get experience while increasing
> self esteem.
>
> Take care.
> Ashley
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Desiree Oudinot
> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 1:01 AM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sighted
> societyat
> social gatherings
>
> Hi Arielle,
> Yes, you certainly made a lot of sense to me. What we all should be
> taking away from your message is that none of us has the right to pass
> judgment on another just because we should feel that someone else,
> whether we know them in real life or not, is making the so-called
> "blind community" look bad. yes, I put that in quotes, because you
> know what? I don't believe it exists. We are all individuals who are
> perhaps bonded by the common trait of seeing less than those in
> society who are deemed to see more than us. But again, seeing is
> relative. Some supposedly sighted people are shallow, while blind"
> people can be wise, deep, meaningful or any other emotional adjective
> you can apply to soul searching, if you will. So, sighted people see
> the physical world in which they live every day, and of course many of
> them can be good people, just as blind people can be, well, shallow
> and uninformed. But that's the beauty of it: just because we have
> nonfunctional eyes, or eyes that maybe don't work as well as others,
> doesn't mean we should be treated as second class citizens, nor should
> we criticize others for what they lack. I can think of many things I
> lack, or lacked in the past tense, but would have been considered
> normal for everyone to know at the time, and I had to hide for fear of
> what people would think of me if I revealed what I didn't know. When I
> was growing up, I longed to know someone who wouldn't judge me. I
> wanted more than anything to not be put down for things i didn't know.
> I wished my parents didn't say things about how I would grow up to be
> fat and worthless like most other blind people. I wish that people
> hadn't given up on me before I even knew what I was capable of,
> because as a result of that, I have no clue what I'm capable of now. I
> guess that's why I wish I could reach out to others who are in that
> position now, because I know how painful it is, and no, maybe I
> haven't fully gotten over my own past, but that doesn't mean I don't
> know anything.
>
> On 9/15/12, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> I think it is absolutely critical to point out that "sighted society"
>> is not a uniform group of people who all share identical norms,
>> attitudes and actions. If it were, there would be no wars, no
>> religious or political differences, no unique languages, cultures,
>> customs, etc. Rather, "society" as a whole is divided into many
>> subgroups that all carry different norms. A few norms, like not
>> killing other people, are near-universal, but most customs relating to
>> dress, mannerisms, speech, nonverbal communication, etc. differ
>> between cultures and sometimes between subgroups within a culture
>> (i.e. people dress differently in San Francisco than they do in
>> Washington, D.C. and college students dress differently from lawyers
>> etc.) It is impossible to teach blind people a universal set of
>> nonverbal behaviors to adopt even if we wanted to. And, I believe that
>> blind people should have just as much right as sighted people to make
>> informed choices about what kinds of norms to follow or not follow,
>> just as women can choose whether to be stay-at-home mothers or to work
>> even if being a working woman is not yet "the norm". Of course, there
>> are consequences for failing to "blend in" and look like everybody
>> else, but sometimes there are things to be gained by doing this, or
>> "blending in" is simply too difficult. As responsible adults we need
>> to weigh the costs and benefits of following the norms for specific
>> situations. For example, if I am interviewing for a job, it is
>> probably to my advantage to purchase and wear a suit. However, if I am
>> doing something less high-stakes, and money is tight, I can probably
>> get away with just wearing some nice slacks or a dress, even if most
>> of the other people there are wearing suits.
>> I do think it is useful to give blind students information about how
>> they can learn about the norms present in their particular culture,
>> i.e. how to learn about the dress code for a new job, where to read
>> about current fashions, etc. It is also good to provide a forum for
>> students to ask questions if they wish to learn more about how to
>> blend in in specific situations. However, I do not think that
>> preaching to blind students about the importance of blending in does
>> much good. The consequences of not blending in are self-evident, and
>> again, blind students are responsible young adults who need to come to
>> these decisions for ourselves.
>> Finally, I need to once again speak up on behalf of those blind folks
>> who are labeled "weird" or "socially unskilled" by blind and sighted
>> alike. As a community of blind people with common experiences, we need
>> to stop passing judgment or trying to give these folks social
>> makeovers, and instead acknowledge that all of us are human beings
>> with different levels of skill and ability in different areas. I
>> always find myself advocating for this often-misunderstood subset of
>> the blind community because in some ways I am part of that group. I
>> spent much of my childhood being labeled as socially inadequate,
>> struggled with a few different "blindisms" and today still deal with
>> lifelong gait and posture issues, and challenges with attempting eye
>> contact. Because of these things some may say I look more "blind" than
>> the average successful blind person, yet I am a successful graduate
>> student, financially self-sufficient and in a committed relationship.
>> In my own case I am very very aware of the importance of blending in
>> and of how "different" I look at times, because this was emphasized to
>> me over and over again as a child. My issues are complicated and I
>> have still not determined if the problems I have with posture and
>> balance are due to an over-protective home environment when I was
>> learning to walk, an as-yet-undiagnosed balance/coordination
>> impairment, or both. My problem with eye contact is related to the
>> fact my vision is such that I feel like I am looking at someone's face
>> when I am actually looking slightly down (and if I actually look up
>> toward their face I see nothing). I can correct for this but it takes
>> a ton of effort and focus for me to do so, so most of the time I end
>> up looking down at someone instead of up at them even though I have
>> been told hundreds of times how important it is to attempt eye
>> contact. Some others in our community have additional disabilities or
>> mental conditions that make "blending in" by our definition
>> practically impossible, yet these folks still have a lot to offer in
>> their own way. My point is that so-called social skill deficits like
>> these are often due to a lot more than just not knowing any better or
>> being mentally deficient. It is important to recognize that all
>> members of our community have strengths and abilities of their own,
>> even if they seem weak or deficient or even "weird" to us, and we
>> should do what we can to empower these people instead of using them as
>> examples of what's wrong with our community as a whole. I hope that
>> made some sense.
>> Best,
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 9/14/12, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I've tried to avoid getting into this thread, but here goes:
>>> 1. Blind people acting like sighted people scares the crap out of
>>> me because it just does for some reason.
>>> 2. Girls' conformity rules are terrible: for instance, girls
>>> shouldn't be scientists. What does that statement say about us
>>> girls? Girls should be married to men with decent jobs. No, I
>>> will not marry a man with any job so I can be taken care of, and
>>> this isn't the friggin' 1800's. Girls and women can take care of
>>> themselves, and they can work and support families. Jason, my
>>> current bf, does not work and can't do what society says, be a
>>> man and work and get paid for the woman. Some societies demand
>>> that all men work and women stay home. We, Americans though we
>>> are, still have these demands on blind women. I as a blind woman
>>> cannot accept conformity or defeat due to womanhood. Since Jason
>>> can't work and follow society's rules of manhood, it's up to me
>>> to do it. Girls should not always do typing, nursing, or
>>> different "womanly" professions where they get paid less than
>>> ordinary men. Jason, due to his disability, does not work. I,
>>> due to mental illness, may never work. I want to work so bad,
>>> but where? Goodwill is out of the question. I'm not working for
>>> nothing or low wages because I'm a woman. And no way will I
>>> accept sexual harassment because I have breasts and different
>>> organs inside me. I as a blind woman will not accept rules
>>> saying "You will be taken care of. You will be a stay-at-home
>>> wife. You will be poor." No way.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Date sent: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:37:00 -0600
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
>>> sighted societyat social gatherings
>>>
>>> Chris wrote,
>>> Therefore, it is important that we know the unwritten rules which
>>> our sighted society has made. If we don't know them and follow
>>> them, what does that say about us as blind people? It says we are
>>> weird, different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.
>>>
>>> Alternatively, perhaps it says that those rules are not natural,
>>> that they are the product of sighted people simply aping one
>>> another, and that they are arbitrary. I believe that such
>>> unwritten rules often needlessly cause huge amounts of anxiety,
>>> self-loathing, and anguish.
>>>
>>> We had a similar discussion on this list some time ago,
>>> particularly around the subject of so called "blindisms, and I
>>> put that term in quotes as a way of acknowledging that it is
>>> pejorative. I'm sure it could be found on line by anyone who is
>>> interested.
>>>
>>> Personally, I would rather live in a world where blind people are
>>> accepted and respected not simply to the extent that they can
>>> look and act like sighted people, but on the grounds that they
>>> are human beings possessing dignity and as equally worthy of
>>> respect as sighted people. The message shouldn't be, "hey, we can
>>> follow your rules, so you should accept us". Instead, the message
>>> should be, "we, like you, have many talents and weaknesses, feel
>>> pleasure and pain, reach our full potential through the formation
>>> of deep and meaningful relationships with other human beings, and
>>> your failure to treat us with respect and as equals is unfair,
>>> discriminatory, and immoral", to borrow from Mr. Lewis.
>>>
>>> By the way, I think this goes well beyond blind people fitting
>>> into sighted society. We are constantly policing one another's
>>> behaviour. Probably one of the more obvious examples of this has
>>> to do with gender. There are hundreds if not thousands of mostly
>>> unspoken rules about what makes a man a man and how real men
>>> ought to behave, and there are twice as many concerning women.
>>> These rules are enforced in subtle but effective ways, and the
>>> result is often a great deal of suffering for anyone who cannot,
>>> or chooses not to, conform. These gender rules are just as
>>> arbitrary as those around sighted/blind behaviour, and the effort
>>> similarly should be to relax and remove such rules, not to more
>>> explicitly and fervently teach boys and girls the so called right
>>> way to act.
>>>
>>> This is of course easier said than done, and failing to conform
>>> does unfortunately often result in suffering, such as missed
>>> social, volunteer, and employment opportunities. So I don't judge
>>> or condemn anyone who makes a serious effort to learn the
>>> unwritten rules of sighted society, just as I don't judge someone
>>> who wants to spend all of his or her time reading medical
>>> journals and desperately praying for a cure. It's hard being
>>> blind in the particular society in which we live, and conforming
>>> can make things a little bit easier. But I still think we should
>>> work more on changing attitudes and less on teaching blind people
>>> how to look and act like sighted people.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Marc
>>> On 2012-09-14, at 3:04 PM, Chris Nusbaum
>>> <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Brandon and all,
>>>
>>> I'm taking the liberty here to change the subject of this
>>> thread, as if we're going to discuss the topic which Brandon has
>>> brought up in his post, I think it would prevent confusion if we
>>> changed the subject to reflect the actual topic of Brandon's
>>> message.
>>>
>>> Brandon, your idea about the NFB conducting some kind of
>>> instructional seminar or workshop on social norms and how we can
>>> "fit in" with the sighted public is a great one! I think you
>>> should talk with the NFB leadership about this! I believe NOPBC
>>> (the parents division) has touched on this topic in their
>>> seminars at conventions. One of the topics at the parents
>>> seminar at the Maryland state convention is almost always social
>>> skills, especially what sighted society has deemed socially
>>> acceptable and how we as blind people can fit in at social
>>> gatherings, conforming as best we can to the "norms" of society.
>>> I believe this is arguably more important for blind students, as
>>> we are often in social gatherings (or want to be in them) at our
>>> schools, with our friends, or in our communities. Therefore, it
>>> is important that we know the unwritten rules which our sighted
>>> society has made. If we don't know them and follow them, what
>>> does that say about us as blind people? It says we are weird,
>>> different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc. These are the
>>> very adjectives we in the Federation have been working to cut out
>>> from the vocabulary of the public when in the context of
>>> blindness and blind people. In other words, these are the very
>>> things we don't want sighted people thinking about us. If this
>>> is how sighted people perceive us, then it puts our ability to
>>> get a job, volunteer in our community, and become first-class
>>> citizens at risk. So, I think this would be a great thing for
>>> the NFB to do, and one which I'm kind of surprised we're not
>>> doing already. Also, since this is an important topic for blind
>>> students, perhaps "social skills and norms" could be the topic of
>>> a future NABS membership call.
>>>
>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Date sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:15:16 -0700
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>> We aren't promoting sex among students, we are promoting safe
>>> sex. There is
>>> a huge difference. If the student division is the only one with
>>> some
>>> practical sense about sexual activities, I'm a little scared...
>>> :)
>>> I do agree though, sex, dating and excepted socializing among a
>>> sighted
>>> community is a very big topic that is often times ignored by the
>>> blind
>>> community.
>>> I have been told by sighted TVIs that many blind folks (youth or
>>> not) have
>>> some very strange mannerisms and beliefs that are totally
>>> against the grain
>>> of sighted society. My mom in particular, who is a TVI, has
>>> suggested that
>>> the NFB should really give some instruction on how the sighted
>>> world thinks.
>>> Otherwise what will happen (and what has happened) is the world
>>> looks at a
>>> gathering of blind people and cringes because they are so weird.
>>> or a
>>> sighted girl sees a blind guy and thinks she wants to talk to
>>> him and when
>>> she is about to sit down and say hi, the guy does something
>>> really weird and
>>> she turns around and walks a mile away.
>>> This is a little different than the deal with the condoms, but
>>> both sexual
>>> health and social issues are topics that are very much in need
>>> of attention
>>> among blind individuals, and students in particular.
>>> I feel strongly that having some active workshops on this that
>>> aren't meant
>>> to be uncomfortable, but still deal with the taboo problems
>>> would greatly
>>> improve convention.
>>> Thank you,
>>>
>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Arielle Silverman
>>> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:18 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>> I have joked in the past about how NABS should sell Brailled
>>> Whozit
>>> condoms at convention! Kidding aside, though, there are probably
>>> some
>>> NFB leaders with more conservative leanings, who might feel that
>>> NABS
>>> selling condoms at convention would be promoting sexual activity
>>> among
>>> young or unmarried blind students. I don't agree with that
>>> position,
>>> but some people do and since anything NABS does is, by
>>> extension, an
>>> NFB-sanctioned event, we would need to balance the benefits of
>>> providing condoms against possibly upsetting the NFB leadership
>>> or
>>> bringing on an unwanted political debate.
>>> I would be more likely to support a NABS breakout session, at
>>> Washington Seminar or elsewhere, about sexuality in general, and
>>> perhaps include an opportunity to try putting a condom on the
>>> proverbial banana or some such. When I was 15, I went to a
>>> diversity
>>> camp (for sighted teens) and there was a sexuality workshop
>>> available
>>> as one of several choices. They passed around condoms and in
>>> fact,
>>> this was the first time I actually felt one. A general workshop
>>> about
>>> sex, dating and etiquette, etc. might be worth having.
>>> Arielle
>>>
>>> On 9/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>> This would be an awesome idea! Not only because many people have
>>> never
>>> seen
>>>
>>> a condom, so they could finger the packages with labels without
>>> having to
>>> be
>>>
>>> embarrassed, but when I was at the hotel I didn't run into any
>>> condoms in
>>> the store. Granted I wasn't looking for them, but I was
>>> browsing...
>>> Condoms,
>>>
>>> lube and Dental Dams, all labeled in Braille! We would also
>>> probably need
>>> to
>>>
>>> provide guides for people on how to find the right way to put on
>>> a condom
>>> or
>>>
>>> use a dental dam.
>>> Another thing I didn't see at the NABS table is hot serial. The
>>> packing
>>> guide in the nabs newsletter said to pack a ton of things and I
>>> for one
>>> don't keep hot serial in the house and I don't shop at places
>>> that sell
>>> hot
>>>
>>> serial, so wasn't able to grab a box. But I would have loved to
>>> buy a box
>>> for even $10 or more, the breakfasts there were $10 alone...
>>> (Then of
>>> course
>>>
>>> we could sell bole and spoon packs for the poor folks who didn't
>>> bring
>>> their
>>>
>>> own utensil's).
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Anmol Bhatia
>>> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:28 AM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>>
>>>
>>> You would be a good place to sell and buy condoms? At the NFB
>>> convention...
>>>
>>> Perhaps Nabs should sell condoms at the NABS table. We can even
>>> braille
>>> them
>>>
>>> so the perso can know what kind of condoms they have. lol
>>>
>>> Anmol
>>>
>>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad.
>>> Perhaps
>>> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague,
>>> like a breeze
>>> among flowers.
>>> Hellen Keller
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On Sun, 9/9/12, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> From: Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>, "National Association of Blind Students
>>> mailing
>>> list"
>>>
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Date: Sunday, September 9, 2012, 10:54 PM
>>> Hi, Brandon,
>>>
>>> I went into a place in Denver to buy a dildo yes, on
>>> the bigger, ribbed side to use in the old fashioned bath tub
>>> I had at the time, to get myself off with the faucet.
>>> Traditionally, I need something in my ass, to cum. If I
>>> remember, the folks in their wer very cool, look at the
>>> blind girl going to by herself a dildo! Don't worry! If
>>> you're relaxed, and cool about what you're doing so will be
>>> the bookstore, personnel. Let us know how goes it,
>>> okay? At 04:52 PM 9/8/2012, SA Mobile wrote:
>>> Those are the best places to get stuff as the staff are
>>> professional and are trained to make customers feel at ease.
>>> Just make sure the shop is of good repute.
>>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On 08/09/2012, at 12:36 PM, "Brandon Keith Biggs"
>>> <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>> Thank goodness my father was a nurse and when I
>>> turned 18, he said addio to being in with me at the doctor.
>>> I do find it amusing though that some doctors are actually
>>> really uncomfortable touching me because I'm blind... That
>>> only happened after my dad started leaving the room.
>>> Thank you Arielle for those websites. I don't feel
>>> that condoms are something I want to buy from a website I've
>>> never heard of before unless someone I know has gotten or
>>> knows that site is trust worthy.
>>> I was told that flavored condoms were only to be
>>> used in oral intercourse. The same is not for lube I
>>> presume?
>>> Also, has anyone ever gone into a sex store? How
>>> was it as a blind shopper? Even from sighted people I hear
>>> the experience is often not pleasant.
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle
>>> Silverman
>>> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2012 10:00 AM
>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>> I know the recent discussions about sex and dating
>>> are kind of in a
>>> gray area as to whether or not they're on-topic
>>> for this list, since
>>> most of the issues Koby brought up are not really
>>> unique to blindness.
>>> So if the moderators or Dave feel this is getting
>>> too far afield, I
>>> will happily respect your judgment. However, I
>>> also think that
>>> Brandon's question about where to get condoms is a
>>> legitimate one and
>>> that there might be other blind people out here,
>>> including teenagers,
>>> who have similar concerns about how to get
>>> condoms, birth control or
>>> sexual health information without a lot of
>>> awkwardness or
>>> embarrassment. It can be particularly difficult if
>>> you have to depend
>>> on someone else (especially parents) for
>>> transportation which can make
>>> going to a clinic or drugstore difficult.
>>> There are a few places to buy condoms online,
>>> including
>>> www.condomania.com
>>> www.undercovercondoms.com
>>> and
>>> www.condomdepot.com
>>> Believe it or not, they also have some condom
>>> choices at
>>> www.amazon.com
>>> If you go to your health center on campus for any
>>> reason, it shouldn't
>>> be a problem to ask a doctor or nurse there
>>> about condoms.
>>> I cannot answer the questions about when to begin
>>> having sex with a
>>> partner because that is a highly individual
>>> decision. However, I feel
>>> it important that anyone who is considering having
>>> sex for the first
>>> time ensure you understand what all of your
>>> options are for preventing
>>> pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases, the
>>> advantages and
>>> disadvantages of each option, and the proper way
>>> to use condoms and
>>> birth control. There are a couple different
>>> websites with this kind
>>> of information:
>>> www.plannedparenthood.org
>>> (includes live chat with a sexual health educator)
>>> or
>>> www.scarleteen.com
>>> This issue is particularly close to my heart at
>>> the moment because my
>>> boyfriend's sister just had an unintended
>>> pregnancy at a very
>>> inopportune time (while still in college, with a
>>> guy she had only
>>> known for a few months) and was apparently taking
>>> birth control pills,
>>> but had not been taking them consistently. While I
>>> don't believe that
>>> sex should be feared, it is something that
>>> takes some responsibility,
>>> planning and foresight to ensure it is enjoyable
>>> while minimizing the
>>> risks. Also, while I won't go into details here,
>>> there are other ways
>>> to be physically intimate with someone that are
>>> less risky, which
>>> these online forums will talk about.
>>> I also want to bring up an issue that is
>>> somewhat relevant to sexual
>>> health, which I experienced and I think that some
>>> of you might also be
>>> struggling with. This is the issue of having your
>>> parents drive you to
>>> doctors' appointments and then having them want to
>>> sit in or even
>>> participate in your appointments. Since I attended
>>> college in my home
>>> city, my mother always wanted to drive me to my
>>> doctors' appointments
>>> and would then want to come in and chat with the
>>> doctor while he/she
>>> was examining me. This was partly because my
>>> parents and I saw many of
>>> the same doctors and she often thought it was a
>>> good opportunity to
>>> ask the doctor a quick question about her own
>>> health while she was
>>> there, or because she was curious to see what the
>>> doctor recommended
>>> to me about a particular issue. I eventually
>>> realized that while it
>>> wasn't ill-intentioned, it was a violation of my
>>> privacy as an adult
>>> patient and I asked her to wait in the waiting
>>> room while I was seeing
>>> the doctor. I didn't actually take this stand
>>> until I was 21 and in
>>> hindsight I wish I had done it much earlier.
>>> By the time you are 18,
>>> unless you have a serious cognitive disability,
>>> you have a right to
>>> privacy of your medical information and it is
>>> important to establish a
>>> good doctor-patient relationship without a third
>>> person interfering.
>>> This is especially true when it comes to sexual
>>> health and by the time
>>> you are 18 or even 16, you will want to start
>>> discussing your sexual
>>> activities or questions with your doctors without
>>> your parents being
>>> around. You might also want to consider getting a
>>> driver or even
>>> taking the bus to medical appointments to avoid
>>> this problem.
>>> On a related note, by the time you are in high
>>> school, you should know
>>> the names of all medications you take on a
>>> regular basis and any
>>> chronic medical conditions you may have. If you
>>> ever have to go to the
>>> emergency room, this kind of information may
>>> be requested of you.
>>> Best,
>>> Arielle
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 09:45:26 -0700
> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we
> canfitinwithsightedsocietyatsocial gatherings
> Message-ID: <DC99C15AFED9476F879B1E6D0B25CCF4 at BrandonsLaptop2>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> Hello,
> Beth, It may be good to consider becoming vegetarian as I spend maybe $130
> max a month on food if I'm buying extra desserts and whatnot.
> It is a good idea to memorize the food groups, write out a menu for 2 weeks
>
> and make sure you have everything for those two weeks . Go shopping once a
> week.
> Here in CA I'm living pretty well off of SSI and I'm living in my own master
>
> sweet. I believe it is a funny thought that white bred, premade drinks and
> rommin is cheaper. Wheat Bred counts as a grain, especially if it has seeds
>
> in it where as white bread is little more than air. Mixed drinks are only
> cheep if gotten at Costco. Otherwise it is best to get frozen cans and mix
> the drinks yourself.
> Attached is my food menu for anyone who wants to take a look... I do mix and
>
> mach and frankly I haven't eaten the fried stuff once, so this is a basic
> guideline.
> (Also, I eat 2 or so boles of serial a day with frozen berries on the top
> and I don't buy serial with less than 4 grams of fiber because anything less
>
> than that will lead to constipation and an empty stomach around 12 or 1. I
> also don't buy cows milk because it doesn't last very long, doesn't have the
>
> properties of whole milk and leaves me feeling not the best in the
> afternoon, so I go soy. If I'm feeling creative I also make siniman bread or
>
> eggs and hash browns or pancakes, but serial is most of the time.
> Attached is my food list and menu. Please excuse my spelling, I like to
> amuse my parents and Italian is better for my sanity than English :) :P.
> Also, this is something my Daily living instructor did with me from DOR.
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ashley Bramlett
> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 4:25 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we
> canfitinwithsightedsocietyatsocial gatherings
>
> Beth,
> Yes some of them have drinks. That is a tough situation with rising grocery
> prices and reduced food stamps.
> I don't know why they'd reduce food stamps in this climate with inflation.
> I
> know there's more to the story wich is too personal.
> You could probably get assistance from some nonprofit or mosque. Maybe nfb
> members in your area would loan you money if you were bold enough to ask
> them.
>
> Hope you can find a way to obtain necessities.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Beth
> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 7:19 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can
> fitinwithsightedsocietyatsocial gatherings
>
> Do they have drinks at a food pantry? Sodas? Juices? I can't
> afford it all.
> Beth
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 19:06:47 -0400
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit
> inwithsightedsocietyatsocial gatherings
>
> Beth,
> Glad you had counseling. I hope things work out for you. I don't
> want to get
> too off topic. I'll just say that there are food pantries and
> don't hesitate
> to use them.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Beth
> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 6:56 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in
> withsightedsocietyatsocial gatherings
>
> Very good and well said, Arielle. I already have counseling and
> therapy and a diagnosis of bipolar and a boyfriend who makes such
> fun of me and call me a drama queen. That's what I get for
> trying to be a little girl when I was four. Life isn't rainbows
> and bunnies I know. And I'm livingfb proof of it. Life is NOT
> one big party and it's hell if you look hard enough. I have
> counseling to deal with my problems, but my benefits are about to
> be suspended because I may have to change counelors or doctors,
> and my food stamps went down. Idk how to deal with those human
> services people and I go humgry. All because I can't get a place
> to live, a job, etc.
> Beth
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 15:10:42 -0600
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
> sightedsocietyatsocial gatherings
>
> Hi all,
> Firstly, Beth and Desiree, I am truly sorry to hear about the
> things
> your parents said or did to you regarding your blindness and
> conformity to social norms. Beth, what your parents did is
> totally
> unacceptable. Of course there is nothing wrong with discussing
> your
> love life or with playing princess games when you were little and
> those things don't even have anything to do with your being
> blind. If
> you haven't yet, I would suggest getting some counseling to help
> you
> cope with these experiences you had as it seems they are still
> affecting you today.
> Desiree, there is no reason for your parents to tell you that you
> will
> end up "fat and worthless" merely because you are blind. These
> statements are not only inaccurate and cruel, but they also can't
> possibly do you any good. I hope that by being on this list you
> have
> learned what blind people have accomplished and what you can
> accomplish in your own life. From your posts here, it is clear
> that
> you are intelligent, have good ideas, and care about others. I
> hope
> that you will get to know some other blind people a little better
> so
> that you can discover the kinds of things that blind people are
> capable of achieving. Whether it be at an NFB function, an ACB
> function, or just a meeting with another blind person who lives
> near
> you, I think that our acquaintances with other blind people are
> the
> best defense against the kinds of negative messages about
> blindness
> and about ourselves that we all get from society at some point.
> The
> best way to discover what you are good at, and what you enjoy
> doing,
> is to just try a few different activities. Please don't base your
> beliefs about what you can do on the negative statements of
> people who
> don't know anything about blindness and who don't believe in
> blind
> people.
> Finally, I want to make a general comment. We have been talking a
> lot
> about whether we should try to conform to the social norms around
> us.
> While that is one way to increase our chances of being accepted,
> it
> doesn't always work. Another way to increase our chances of being
> accepted is to move to a different community or a different
> situation
> whose norms are closer to our own. For some of us that might mean
> spending more time with other blind people. For others, it might
> mean
> moving to a place that has better public transportation so that
> the
> fact we can't drive doesn't interfere with our fitting in as
> much. Or,
> it could mean moving to an academic field where our intellectual
> abilities matter more than what we are wearing, etc.
> I grew up in Scottsdale, AZ, a wealthy suburb where the sighted
> women
> around me were very much into fashion and beauty. During myteen
> years
> my mother tried to ensure I was accepted by urging (or even
> requiring)
> me to dress nicely, do fancy things with my hair and wear
> makeup. I
> also have had bad acne since I was 11, and I was put on several
> medications to try to clear it up, but none were very effective.
> There
> were also a couple of years during my adolescence where I was
> required
> to get expensive facials, which involved painful "extractions" to
> attempt to treat my acne. (Sorry to be gross!) While I wanted to
> be
> accepted at school by sighted people, I eventually concluded that
> it
> wasn't worth spending an hour a day straightening my hair, and
> enduring the facials only to have my face break out again a few
> weeks
> later. Plus, I was a teen, and didn't like having my mother
> micromanage my appearance in these ways. I eventually decided
> that all
> sighted people were shallow, superficial jerks who weren't worth
> my
> time and effort to try and impress. So out of rebellion, I
> started
> letting my hair go crazy whenever I could get away with it, and
> spent
> all my time with the few blind friends I had. What I didn't know
> at
> the time was that my stereotype of all sighted people as shallow
> really only applied to sighted people living in Scottsdale. Once
> I
> grew up and got the heck out of Scottsdale, I eventually found a
> few
> sighted people who accepted me for who I was, even without the
> facials
> and with a low-maintenance haircut. I realize now that I really
> didn't
> belong in Scottsdale at all, and blindness had some to do with it
> (Scottsdale also has horrible public transportation), but it was
> also
> about my personality. However, where I live now, I am able to be
> accepted without having to change much of who I am.
> I think that some of us who are struggling to be accepted might
> be
> happier in a different environment--a different part of the
> country,
> attending college or volunteering with peers who share our
> interests,
> or even just getting out of our parents' homes. I actually
> believe
> that voc rehab agencies should subsidize rent costs so that blind
> adults who are still living at home can get their own apartments.
> The
> family home can be a very restrictive environment for many blind
> adults for a variety of reasons: parents who are still
> over-protective, family drama, or even just the fact that the
> house is
> far from public transportation options. It is also hard to build
> blindness skills while living at home, or to date. If you have
> the
> means to move out, I would encourage you to do so, as a step
> toward
> building a life of your own design.
> I know that the teens on the list may have a lot less flexibility
> as
> far as choosing your environment. However, even if you are a teen
> and
> cannot move out yet, you can perhaps look around your school for
> clubs
> to join with people in them who share your interests and views.
> And I
> would encourage you to take every opportunity to get to know
> blind
> people, both those your age and those who are older who can
> mentor
> you. Of course blind people don't share everything in common, but
> you
> may well find that the confidence you gain from being accepted by
> blind people spills over into your encounters with sighted
> people.
> Best,
> Arielle
>
> On 9/15/12, wmodnl wmodnl <wmodnl at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Good morning all,
> My message here is not exactly blindness related; however, it is
> on a topic
> we are discussing. That is the topic of posture. I thought of
> this since
> posture is a issue for us as blind people.
> There is a study here in Boston for working with lower back
> pain. I bring
> this up because bad back pain from surgical operations. Many
> back
> conditions, cause one to have bad posture. I have really bad
> posture since
> I had surgery that has caused me to stand on a slant.
> The study offers treatment for one to have free PT and yoga,
> Reky.
> Wright me off-list for more information.
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Sep 15, 2012, at 9:42 AM, "Rania Ismail CMT"
> <raniaismail04 at gmail.com
> wrote:
>
> I have issues with balance and posture so my yoga instructor is
> working
> on
> that with me. Working with a yoga instructor to correct your
> posture is
> another idea. I am also working on straingthening my muscles in
> yoga.
> Massage can also help by relaxing the muscles and improving
> range of
> motion
> so you can learn how to move and change your posture.
> Rania,
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Ashley Bramlett
> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 2:47 AM
> To: Nationstrengthening my muscles in yoga as well. Even getting
> a
> massage
> Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
> sighted
> societyats.. could help ocial gatherings
>
> Arielle,
> I think a seminar could be held without seeming like preaching.
> I said to Chris that norms differ based on the situation.
> We'd have to be careful though; we do not want participants to
> feel that
> every situation is very scripted. As I said before, social
> gatherings,
> particularly among young people, are relaxed and informal.
>
> If you did such a seminar the format could be lecture based,
> modeling, and
>
> question and answer. People could even submit questions
> anonymously for
> the
> discussion part.
> What could be covered are standard rules of etiquette. My dad
> feels that
> blind people are not as polite and in crowds are quick to shove
> each other
>
> aside, and sadly this is partly true.
> Its not about acting like sighted people, its about being
> courteous and
> blending in.
> You could talk about it briefly and role play situations. Topics
> like
> manners, what to do when you greet a new person,
> how you are supposed to wait in line for many things, clothing
> tips,
> nonverbal communication like gestures, and acceptable ways of
> fidgiting.
> Blindisms are not acceptable, but there are acceptable ways of
> fidgiting
> or
> self stimulation that are.
>
> We want to come across as approachable and nice people.
> Nonverbal
> communication includes correct posture. I suppose if it's a
> chronic issue,
>
> one might want to ask a doctor about it to ensure no underlying
> coordination disorder exists. You could also work with a
> physical
> theripist
> if a muscular problem is present preventing you from having
> correct
> posture.
>
> My guess is a lot of blind people look down as they do not have
> visual
> stimulation to look up and around. Then it's a habit to be bent
> over at
> the
> shoulders which is hard to correct. Another theory I have is
> that blind
> kids
>
> were sheltered and kept from moving about freely; eventually,
> this affects
>
> posture because your body adapts to a still position; muscles
> can shorten,
>
> lose their elasticity, become stiff and disjointed.
>
> I do pretty good with posture. But, I do struggle with eye
> contact. I have
>
> some vision and if I try to focus for a long time, my eyes start
> their
> nystagmus fit, meaning they shake involuntarily. Another thing
> is my
> parents
>
> tell me I look like I'm staring at people; I don't mean too, but
> its
> simply
> that I'm looking around to see what I can.
> Another thing is while I have stopped rocking since my folks
> worked on
> that
> as I was young, I do it occasionally. I do so involuntarily for
> balance
> probably without knowing I'm doing it. So, its impossible for me
> to stop
> rocking totally; I simply cannot control a behavior I do not
> realize I'm
> doing. If I concentrate on walking upright and still, I won't do
> it. But I
>
> won't do this most of the time; I simply have too much to think
> about
> rather
>
> than asking myself, am I walking straight, walking upright, and
> is my head
>
> still.
>
>
> I think its important for us to find out about norms and find
> out where to
>
> find such information. The seminar should include that. Online
> resources
> about fashion trends and etiquette is an idea; asking people
> around us is
>
> another, and
> finally magazines would be another. I also wonder if there are
> existing
> videos either for the public, or for us specifically, on this.
> Maybe AFB
> or
> APH would have something, or maybe a video with good
> descriptions exists
> for
>
> the general audience. I don't know.
>
> Speaking of nonverbal communication, I'd really like to learn
> gestures.
> Someday, if I take public speaking, I'm going to ask the teacher
> to teach
> me
>
> this.
>
> Ashley
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Arielle Silverman
> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 12:26 AM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
> sighted
> societyat
>
> social gatherings
>
> Hi all,
> I think it is absolutely critical to point out that "sighted
> society"
> is not a uniform group of people who all share identical norms,
> attitudes and actions. If it were, there would be no wars, no
> religious or political differences, no unique languages,
> cultures,
> customs, etc. Rather, "society" as a whole is divided into many
> subgroups that all carry different norms. A few norms, like not
> killing other people, are near-universal, but most customs
> relating to
> dress, mannerisms, speech, nonverbal communication, etc. differ
> between cultures and sometimes between subgroups within a
> culture
> (i.e. people dress differently in San Francisco than they do in
> Washington, D.C. and college students dress differently from
> lawyers
> etc.) It is impossible to teach blind people a universal set of
> nonverbal behaviors to adopt even if we wanted to. And, I
> believe that
> blind people should have just as much right as sighted people to
> make
> informed choices about what kinds of norms to follow or not
> follow,
> just as women can choose whether to be stay-at-home mothers or
> to work
> even if being a working woman is not yet "the norm". Of course,
> there
> are consequences for failing to "blend in" and look like
> everybody
> else, but sometimes there are things to be gained by doing this,
> or
> "blending in" is simply too difficult. As responsible adults we
> need
> to weigh the costs and benefits of following the norms for
> specific
> situations. For example, if I am interviewing for a job, it is
> probably to my advantage to purchase and wear a suit. However,
> if I am
> doing something less high-stakes, and money is tight, I can
> probably
> get away with just wearing some nice slacks or a dress, even if
> most
> of the other people there are wearing suits.
> I do think it is useful to give blind students information about
> how
> they can learn about the norms present in their particular
> culture,
> i.e. how to learn about the dress code for a new job, where to
> read
> about current fashions, etc. It is also good to provide a forum
> for
> students to ask questions if they wish to learn more about how
> to
> blend in in specific situations. However, I do not think that
> preaching to blind students about the importance of blending in
> does
> much good. The consequences of not blending in are self-evident,
> and
> again, blind students are responsible young adults who need to
> come to
> these decisions for ourselves.
> Finally, I need to once again speak up on behalf of those blind
> folks
> who are labeled "weird" or "socially unskilled" by blind and
> sighted
> alike. As a community of blind people with common experiences,
> we need
> to stop passing judgment or trying to give these folks social
> makeovers, and instead acknowledge that all of us are human
> beings
> with different levels of skill and ability in different areas. I
> always find myself advocating for this often-misunderstood
> subset of
> the blind community because in some ways I am part of that
> group. I
> spent much of my childhood being labeled as socially inadequate,
> struggled with a few different "blindisms" and today still deal
> with
> lifelong gait and posture issues, and challenges with attempting
> eye
> contact. Because of these things some may say I look more
> "blind" than
> the average successful blind person, yet I am a successful
> graduate
> student, financially self-sufficient and in a committed
> relationship.
> In my own case I am very very aware of the importance of
> blending in
> and of how "different" I look at times, because this was
> emphasized to
> me over and over again as a child. My issues are complicated and
> I
> have still not determined if the problems I have with posture
> and
> balance are due to an over-protective home environment when I
> was
> learning to walk, an as-yet-undiagnosed balance/coordination
> impairment, or both. My problem with eye contact is related to
> the
> fact my vision is such that I feel like I am looking at
> someone's face
> when I am actually looking slightly down (and if I actually look
> up
> toward their face I see nothing). I can correct for this but it
> takes
> a ton of effort and focus for me to do so, so most of the time I
> end
> up looking down at someone instead of up at them even though I
> have
> been told hundreds of times how important it is to attempt eye
> contact. Some others in our community have additional
> disabilities or
> mental conditions that make "blending in" by our definition
> practically impossible, yet these folks still have a lot to
> offer in
> their own way. My point is that so-called social skill deficits
> like
> these are often due to a lot more than just not knowing any
> better or
> being mentally deficient. It is important to recognize that all
> members of our community have strengths and abilities of their
> own,
> even if they seem weak or deficient or even "weird" to us, and
> we
> should do what we can to empower these people instead of using
> them as
> examples of what's wrong with our community as a whole. I hope
> that
> made some sense.
> Best,
> Arielle
>
> On 9/14/12, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've tried to avoid getting into this thread, but here goes:
> 1. Blind people acting like sighted people scares the crap out
> of
> me because it just does for some reason.
> 2. Girls' conformity rules are terrible: for instance, girls
> shouldn't be scientists. What does that statement say about us
> girls? Girls should be married to men with decent jobs. No, I
> will not marry a man with any job so I can be taken care of, and
> this isn't the friggin' 1800's. Girls and women can take care
> of
> themselves, and they can work and support families. Jason, my
> current bf, does not work and can't do what society says, be a
> man and work and get paid for the woman. Some societies demand
> that all men work and women stay home. We, Americans though we
> are, still have these demands on blind women. I as a blind
> woman
> cannot accept conformity or defeat due to womanhood. Since
> Jason
> can't work and follow society's rules of manhood, it's up to me
> to do it. Girls should not always do typing, nursing, or
> different "womanly" professions where they get paid less than
> ordinary men. Jason, due to his disability, does not work. I,
> due to mental illness, may never work. I want to work so bad,
> but where? Goodwill is out of the question. I'm not working
> for
> nothing or low wages because I'm a woman. And no way will I
> accept sexual harassment because I have breasts and different
> organs inside me. I as a blind woman will not accept rules
> saying "You will be taken care of. You will be a stay-at-home
> wife. You will be poor." No way.
> Beth
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:37:00 -0600
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
> sighted societyat social gatherings
>
> Chris wrote,
> Therefore, it is important that we know the unwritten rules
> which
> our sighted society has made. If we don't know them and follow
> them, what does that say about us as blind people? It says we
> are
> weird, different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.
>
> Alternatively, perhaps it says that those rules are not natural,
> that they are the product of sighted people simply aping one
> another, and that they are arbitrary. I believe that such
> unwritten rules often needlessly cause huge amounts of anxiety,
> self-loathing, and anguish.
>
> We had a similar discussion on this list some time ago,
> particularly around the subject of so called "blindisms, and I
> put that term in quotes as a way of acknowledging that it is
> pejorative. I'm sure it could be found on line by anyone who is
> interested.
>
> Personally, I would rather live in a world where blind people
> are
> accepted and respected not simply to the extent that they can
> look and act like sighted people, but on the grounds that they
> are human beings possessing dignity and as equally worthy of
> respect as sighted people. The message shouldn't be, "hey, we
> can
> follow your rules, so you should accept us". Instead, the
> message
> should be, "we, like you, have many talents and weaknesses, feel
> pleasure and pain, reach our full potential through the
> formation
> of deep and meaningful relationships with other human beings,
> and
> your failure to treat us with respect and as equals is unfair,
> discriminatory, and immoral", to borrow from Mr. Lewis.
>
> By the way, I think this goes well beyond blind people fitting
> into sighted society. We are constantly policing one another's
> behaviour. Probably one of the more obvious examples of this has
> to do with gender. There are hundreds if not thousands of mostly
> unspoken rules about what makes a man a man and how real men
> ought to behave, and there are twice as many concerning women.
> These rules are enforced in subtle but effective ways, and the
> result is often a great deal of suffering for anyone who cannot,
> or chooses not to, conform. These gender rules are just as
> arbitrary as those around sighted/blind behaviour, and the
> effort
> similarly should be to relax and remove such rules, not to more
> explicitly and fervently teach boys and girls the so called
> right
> way to act.
>
> This is of course easier said than done, and failing to conform
> does unfortunately often result in suffering, such as missed
> social, volunteer, and employment opportunities. So I don't
> judge
> or condemn anyone who makes a serious effort to learn the
> unwritten rules of sighted society, just as I don't judge
> someone
> who wants to spend all of his or her time reading medical
> journals and desperately praying for a cure. It's hard being
> blind in the particular society in which we live, and conforming
> can make things a little bit easier. But I still think we should
> work more on changing attitudes and less on teaching blind
> people
> how to look and act like sighted people.
>
> Regards,
>
> Marc
> On 2012-09-14, at 3:04 PM, Chris Nusbaum
> <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Brandon and all,
>
> I'm taking the liberty here to change the subject of this
> thread, as if we're going to discuss the topic which Brandon has
> brought up in his post, I think it would prevent confusion if we
> changed the subject to reflect the actual topic of Brandon's
> message.
>
> Brandon, your idea about the NFB conducting some kind of
> instructional seminar or workshop on social norms and how we can
> "fit in" with the sighted public is a great one! I think you
> should talk with the NFB leadership about this! I believe NOPBC
> (the parents division) has touched on this topic in their
> seminars at conventions. One of the topics at the parents
> seminar at the Maryland state convention is almost always social
> skills, especially what sighted society has deemed socially
> acceptable and how we as blind people can fit in at social
> gatherings, conforming as best we can to the "norms" of society.
> I believe this is arguably more important for blind students, as
> we are often in social gatherings (or want to be in them) at our
> schools, with our friends, or in our communities. Therefore, it
> is important that we know the unwritten rules which our sighted
> society has made. If we don't know them and follow them, what
> does that say about us as blind people? It says we are weird,
> different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc. These are the
> very adjectives we in the Federation have been working to cut
> out
> from the vocabulary of the public when in the context of
> blindness and blind people. In other words, these are the very
> things we don't want sighted people thinking about us. If this
> is how sighted people perceive us, then it puts our ability to
> get a job, volunteer in our community, and become first-class
> citizens at risk. So, I think this would be a great thing for
> the NFB to do, and one which I'm kind of surprised we're not
> doing already. Also, since this is an important topic for blind
> students, perhaps "social skills and norms" could be the topic
> of
> a future NABS membership call.
>
> Just my thoughts,
>
> Chris
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:15:16 -0700
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>
> Hello,
> We aren't promoting sex among students, we are promoting safe
> sex. There is
> a huge difference. If the student division is the only one with
> some
> practical sense about sexual activities, I'm a little scared...
> :)
> I do agree though, sex, dating and excepted socializing among a
> sighted
> community is a very big topic that is often times ignored by the
> blind
> community.
> I have been told by sighted TVIs that many blind folks (youth or
> not) have
> some very strange mannerisms and beliefs that are totally
> against the grain
> of sighted society. My mom in particular, who is a TVI, has
> suggested that
> the NFB should really give some instruction on how the sighted
> world thinks.
> Otherwise what will happen (and what has happened) is the world
> looks at a
> gathering of blind people and cringes because they are so weird.
> or a
> sighted girl sees a blind guy and thinks she wants to talk to
> him and when
> she is about to sit down and say hi, the guy does something
> really weird and
> she turns around and walks a mile away.
> This is a little different than the deal with the condoms, but
> both sexual
> health and social issues are topics that are very much in need
> of attention
> among blind individuals, and students in particular.
> I feel strongly that having some active workshops on this that
> aren't meant
> to be uncomfortable, but still deal with the taboo problems
> would greatly
> improve convention.
> Thank you,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Arielle Silverman
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:18 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>
> Hi all,
> I have joked in the past about how NABS should sell Brailled
> Whozit
> condoms at convention! Kidding aside, though, there are probably
> some
> NFB leaders with more conservative leanings, who might feel that
> NABS
> selling condoms at convention would be promoting sexual activity
> among
> young or unmarried blind students. I don't agree with that
> position,
> but some people do and since anything NABS does is, by
> extension, an
> NFB-sanctioned event, we would need to balance the benefits of
> providing condoms against possibly upsetting the NFB leadership
> or
> bringing on an unwanted political debate.
> I would be more likely to support a NABS breakout session, at
> Washington Seminar or elsewhere, about sexuality in general, and
> perhaps include an opportunity to try putting a condom on the
> proverbial banana or some such. When I was 15, I went to a
> diversity
> camp (for sighted teens) and there was a sexuality workshop
> available
> as one of several choices. They passed around condoms and in
> fact,
> this was the first time I actually felt one. A general workshop
> about
> sex, dating and etiquette, etc. might be worth having.
> Arielle
>
> On 9/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> wrote:
> Hello,
> This would be an awesome idea! Not only because many people have
> never
> seen
>
> a condom, so they could finger the packages with labels without
> having to
> be
>
> embarrassed, but when I was at the hotel I didn't run into any
> condoms in
> the store. Granted I wasn't looking for them, but I was
> browsing...
> Condoms,
>
> lube and Dental Dams, all labeled in Braille! We would also
> probably need
> to
>
> provide guides for people on how to find the right way to put on
> a condom
> or
>
> use a dental dam.
> Another thing I didn't see at the NABS table is hot serial. The
> packing
> guide in the nabs newsletter said to pack a ton of things and I
> for one
> don't keep hot serial in the house and I don't shop at places
> that sell
> hot
>
> serial, so wasn't able to grab a box. But I would have loved to
> buy a box
> for even $10 or more, the breakfasts there were $10 alone...
> (Then of
> course
>
> we could sell bole and spoon packs for the poor folks who didn't
> bring
> their
>
> own utensil's).
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anmol Bhatia
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:28 AM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>
>
> You would be a good place to sell and buy condoms? At the NFB
> convention...
>
> Perhaps Nabs should sell condoms at the NABS table. We can even
> braille
> them
>
> so the perso can know what kind of condoms they have. lol
>
> Anmol
>
> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad.
> Perhaps
> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague,
> like a breeze
> among flowers.
> Hellen Keller
>
>
> --- On Sun, 9/9/12, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
> wrote:
>
> From: Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>, "National Association of Blind Students
> mailing
> list"
>
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date: Sunday, September 9, 2012, 10:54 PM
> Hi, Brandon,
>
> I went into a place in Denver to buy a dildo yes, on
> the bigger, ribbed side to use in the old fashioned bath tub
> I had at the time, to get myself off with the faucet.
> Traditionally, I need something in my ass, to cum. If I
> remember, the folks in their wer very cool, look at the
> blind girl going to by herself a dildo! Don't worry! If
> you're relaxed, and cool about what you're doing so will be
> the bookstore, personnel. Let us know how goes it,
> okay? At 04:52 PM 9/8/2012, SA Mobile wrote:
> Those are the best places to get stuff as the staff are
> professional and are trained to make customers feel at ease.
> Just make sure the shop is of good repute.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 08/09/2012, at 12:36 PM, "Brandon Keith Biggs"
> <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> Thank goodness my father was a nurse and when I
> turned 18, he said addio to being in with me at the doctor.
> I do find it amusing though that some doctors are actually
> really uncomfortable touching me because I'm blind... That
> only happened after my dad started leaving the room.
> Thank you Arielle for those websites. I don't feel
> that condoms are something I want to buy from a website I've
> never heard of before unless someone I know has gotten or
> knows that site is trust worthy.
> I was told that flavored condoms were only to be
> used in oral intercourse. The same is not for lube I
> presume?
> Also, has anyone ever gone into a sex store? How
> was it as a blind shopper? Even from sighted people I hear
> the experience is often not pleasant.
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs
> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle
> Silverman
> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2012 10:00 AM
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>
> Hi all,
> I know the recent discussions about sex and dating
> are kind of in a
> gray area as to whether or not they're on-topic
> for this list, since
> most of the issues Koby brought up are not really
> unique to blindness.
> So if the moderators or Dave feel this is getting
> too far afield, I
> will happily respect your judgment. However, I
> also think that
> Brandon's question about where to get condoms is a
> legitimate one and
> that there might be other blind people out here,
> including teenagers,
> who have similar concerns about how to get
> condoms, birth control or
> sexual health information without a lot of
> awkwardness or
> embarrassment. It can be particularly difficult if
> you have to depend
> on someone else (especially parents) for
> transportation which can make
> going to a clinic or drugstore difficult.
> There are a few places to buy condoms online,
> including
> www.condomania.com
> www.undercovercondoms.com
> and
> www.condomdepot.com
> Believe it or not, they also have some condom
> choices at
> www.amazon.com
> If you go to your health center on campus for any
> reason, it shouldn't
> be a problem to ask a doctor or nurse there
> about condoms.
> I cannot answer the questions about when to begin
> having sex with a
> partner because that is a highly individual
> decision. However, I feel
> it important that anyone who is considering having
> sex for the first
> time ensure you understand what all of your
> options are for preventing
> pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases, the
> advantages and
> disadvantages of each option, and the proper way
> to use condoms and
> birth control. There are a couple different
> websites with this kind
> of information:
> www.plannedparenthood.org
> (includes live chat with a sexual health educator)
> or
> www.scarleteen.com
> This issue is particularly close to my heart at
> the moment because my
> boyfriend's sister just had an unintended
> pregnancy at a very
> inopportune time (while still in college, with a
> guy she had only
> known for a few months) and was apparently taking
> birth control pills,
> but had not been taking them consistently. While I
> don't believe that
> sex should be feared, it is something that
> takes some responsibility,
> planning and foresight to ensure it is enjoyable
> while minimizing the
> risks. Also, while I won't go into details here,
> there are other ways
> to be physically intimate with someone that are
> less risky, which
> these online forums will talk about.
> I also want to bring up an issue that is
> somewhat relevant to sexual
> health, which I experienced and I think that some
> of you might also be
> struggling with. This is the issue of having your
> parents drive you to
> doctors' appointments and then having them want to
> sit in or even
> participate in your appointments. Since I attended
> college in my home
> city, my mother always wanted to drive me to my
> doctors' appointments
> and would then want to come in and chat with the
> doctor while he/she
> was examining me. This was partly because my
> parents and I saw many of
> the same doctors and she often thought it was a
> good opportunity to
> ask the doctor a quick question about her own
> health while she was
> there, or because she was curious to see what the
> doctor recommended
> to me about a particular issue. I eventually
> realized that while it
> wasn't ill-intentioned, it was a violation of my
> privacy as an adult
> patient and I asked her to wait in the waiting
> room while I was seeing
> the doctor. I didn't actually take this stand
> until I was 21 and in
> hindsight I wish I had done it much earlier.
> By the time you are 18,
> unless you have a serious cognitive disability,
> you have a right to
> privacy of your medical information and it is
> important to establish a
> good doctor-patient relationship without a third
> person interfering.
> This is especially true when it comes to sexual
> health and by the time
> you are 18 or even 16, you will want to start
> discussing your sexual
> activities or questions with your doctors without
> your parents being
> around. You might also want to consider getting a
> driver or even
> taking the bus to medical appointments to avoid
> this problem.
> On a related note, by the time you are in high
> school, you should know
> the names of all medications you take on a
> regular basis and any
> chronic medical conditions you may have. If you
> ever have to go to the
> emergency room, this kind of information may
> be requested of you.
> Best,
> Arielle
>
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> End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 71, Issue 28
> **************************************
>
--
Conchita Hernandez
María de la Concepción Hernández Legorreta
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