[nabs-l] Listening vs. Watching
Jewel
herekittykat2 at gmail.com
Fri Sep 21 22:42:19 UTC 2012
I couldn't agree more. I watch TV with my ears, I read books with my
ears or my fingers, I see elevator buttons with my fingers. I always
tell people "I can see to, just not with my eyes. I see with my
fingers and my ears." They tend to understand if I tell them jthat.
~Jewel
On 9/21/12, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
> Frankly, I think we as blind people have much bigger fish to fry than
> worrying about whether to say we watch or listen to stuff. We should
> use the terms we feel comfortable with and that sound appropriate even
> if they aren't technically correct. Hopefully a sighted conversation
> partner will be able to get the meaning of what you're saying and move
> on instead of freaking out about the technicalities of whether or not
> you can actually see something.
> It goes the other way too. I often get emails from sighted people (as
> well as blind people) that end with "Hope to hear from you soon".
> Literally what they mean is "hope to see a written response from you
> on my computer screen soon". Should I correct them and say, "I'm
> sending you a response in text, not voice, so you should have said
> hope to read from you soon?" I think not. Or maybe I should start
> saying "smell you later" to my boyfriend when I leave for work? Again,
> that would be highly inappropriate, even though when I say "I'll see
> you later" I won't literally be seeing him. OK, I think you get the
> idea.
> Arielle
> On 9/21/12, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>> Movies on a computer can be on MP3 or they can have video. I would
>> maintain
>> that if you are sitting there with a movie on the
>> computer that is in MP3 format and you say you are watching it, you are
>> going to come across more out of touch with the world than
>> saying you are listening to it. Also, the fact is that when I enjoy a
>> movie
>> I am listening to it while I would never be watching
>> music so those two examples are really not interchangeable as you have
>> indicated. Having said that, I do tend to say that I
>> watched a given thing on TV and that I haven't seen this or that movie
>> just
>> because it makes sense, but I think this sort of thing
>> can be carried too far. We are going to be judged far more by such
>> things
>> as whether we can travel independently, for example,
>> rather than whether we watch or listen to TV. I agree with the sentiment
>> expressed by someone else that we are incorrect to think
>> that there is one social norm that is conformed to by all sighted people.
>> This is not meant to support inappropriate behavior
>> such as picking up food with one's fingers that clearly is not meant to be
>> a
>> finger food, or not paying attention to what is going
>> on around us. When my co-worker argued with me about watching TV, I had
>> frankly never thought about the apparent conflict in what
>> I was saying. The verb "watched" just went with TV for me, as it does
>> for
>> you. However, I have come to realize that for some,
>> using that term makes them wonder if there is some device that I have
>> that
>> let's me get some sense of what is being displayed. I
>> now understand that my use of that term may raise questions in the minds
>> of
>> some, and if it is apparent, I can take the time to
>> explain. When I thought about it, my co-worker was not really wrong and
>> deserved something more than my anger, I do not
>> physically watch TV. He saw me as an independent and capable blind
>> person,
>> so it didn't make sense to him that I would use the
>> word "watched." To him, it was a sort of denial of my circumstances that
>> was inconsistent with how I live my life. Life just
>> isn't all that simple sometimes.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>> On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 22:45:46 -0400, Desiree Oudinot wrote:
>>
>>>The same logic can be applied to described movies that are on the
>>>computer, since they're usually in mp3 format. But why be so picky? A
>>>movie is a movie. It was made into a format that was meant to be taken
>>>in visually. Watching it seems the normal way to say what you're
>>>doing, and frankly, saying you're listening to a movie just sounds
>>>weird to me. Would you ever say you're watching music? Sure, you could
>>>if you're watching a music video, but unless you're tripping on acid,
>>>I'm pretty sure your senses aren't getting shuffled around.
>>>As for someone getting offended because you said you were watching
>>>something, that's exactly the kind of behavior that makes me really
>>>mad. I had an English teacher once who said that I wasn't allowed to
>>>say words such as look or see because I couldn't possibly understand
>>>them, and she would make me edit my papers so those words weren't
>>>included. And then there was the time she yelled at me because I said
>>>in one story that a cat had stopped at night to rest, because
>>>apparently I was implying that cats can't see in the dark, and what
>>>would I know about that!
>>
>>>On 9/20/12, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>> Okay, so if I have a TV show on but it is running through my stereo
>>>> with
>>>> no
>>>> TV screen, am I watching it or am I listening to it.
>>>> I got into kind of an argument with a sighted co-worker once when I
>>>> told
>>>> him
>>>> what I had watched on TV and he felt strongly that
>>>> for me to say I was watching TV was not accurate. He actually saw it
>>>> as
>>>> me
>>>> sort of pretending inasmuch as I did not watch it.
>>>> The upshot is that we are going to be measured more broadly than that.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 00:00:21 -0400, Desiree Oudinot wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Listening to TV, huh? Could this not be a lesson in precisely what
>>>>>we're discussing here? If we want to fit into the sighted world, we'd
>>>>>do well to say we're watching TV or a movie like everyone else. I hate
>>>>>it when someone gets all flustered and up in arms when they can't
>>>>>think of a politically correct way to ask us blind folks what shows we
>>>>>like, or worse yet, if we can enjoy the cinema at all. you're not
>>>>>helping by spurring that misconception on.
>>>>
>>>>>On 9/19/12, Sarah <coastergirl92 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Hello everyone, my name is Sarah. I am bj years old. I just
>>>>>> graduated a program called D.P.I. Davidson Program For
>>>>>> Independence. I had to go there because Guide Dogs Of the Desert
>>>>>> said I had to go. So I graduated from there, tomorrow I go get
>>>>>> my first guide dog! My interests are rides, reading, listening to
>>>>>> tv, dogs and horses
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Date sent: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 13:48:32 -0700
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
>>>>>> sighted societyatsocial gatherings
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>> There are quite a few ideas that are universal through out
>>>>>> cultures.
>>>>>> For example, it is never socially acceptable to sway in
>>>>>> conversation. It is
>>>>>> only acceptable to rock back and forth mildly when playing guitar
>>>>>> or more
>>>>>> heavily when one is studying the old testament as a Jew.
>>>>>> Otherwise chin up, strait and relaxed stillness for the torso
>>>>>> almost always.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, facial expressions are almost constant through out all
>>>>>> cultures. A
>>>>>> smile is always happy, big eyes are innocents or raised eyebrows,
>>>>>> big eyes
>>>>>> with mouth a little open is startled or scared.
>>>>>> Beckoning is also a very universal gesture with the fist out in
>>>>>> front facing
>>>>>> up with the index finger moving up and down like the person is a
>>>>>> balloon and
>>>>>> the string is on your finger...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fit me in or something along that lines is more inclusive because
>>>>>> it means
>>>>>> one can ask about fitting in to their theater group, dance teem,
>>>>>> glee club,
>>>>>> getting in a relationship, dating...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not sure how people are expecting to fit into a sighted
>>>>>> world without
>>>>>> some sighted help.
>>>>>> Although I am guessing that the way the list will pan out is more
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>> people asking questions and both blind people and a few TVIs or
>>>>>> parents will
>>>>>> help. I am on a couple lists with quite a few sighted people and
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> questions like this they are invaluable...
>>>>>> Who knew that hugging yourself with your hands in a fist over
>>>>>> your heart, as
>>>>>> if you were trying to keep warm, actually looks like you are
>>>>>> terrified of
>>>>>> something?
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 12:24 PM
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
>>>>>> sighted societyat
>>>>>> social gatherings
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>> Sorry to be difficult but I am not willing to join a listserv
>>>>>> called
>>>>>> "Being Socially Acceptable Blind" or "Looking Sighted". Both
>>>>>> names
>>>>>> imply that all sighted people look and act the same or that
>>>>>> there is
>>>>>> only one way to be socially acceptable; these are notions that,
>>>>>> frankly, I believe are offensive to blind and sighted people
>>>>>> both.
>>>>>> I believe such a listserv should be intended to be a
>>>>>> nonjudgmental
>>>>>> forum where blind folks can ask questions or share frustrations
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> get supportive answers from blind peers and blind mentors, not a
>>>>>> place
>>>>>> where subscribers are told they must look and act a certain way.
>>>>>> Also,
>>>>>> while we might let TVI's join if they want, I think the vast
>>>>>> majority
>>>>>> of the subscribers should be blind people and we should keep
>>>>>> teachers
>>>>>> and authority figures to a minimum.
>>>>>> I'd support a name like "blind-fitting in", "blind-social" or
>>>>>> "blind-dating" perhaps.
>>>>>> If the group is created with a tolerant, non-judgmental name I'd
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> happy to help out with it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9/19/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Names:
>>>>>> See me blind (SEM at blah.whatever)
>>>>>> Being Socially acceptable blind (SEB)
>>>>>> Looking Sighted (LS or LSighted)
>>>>>> talk sightless (TSightless)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just some names...
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Desiree Oudinot
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 10:48 AM
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
>>>>>> sighted
>>>>>> societyat
>>>>>>
>>>>>> social gatherings
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's actually a pretty good idea for a name. That was the
>>>>>> only thing
>>>>>> holding me back from creating a group, the fact I couldn't
>>>>>> really
>>>>>> think of a name for it. As for making a website, that would be
>>>>>> a cool
>>>>>> idea too, but I don't know html or anything, so I decided not to
>>>>>> go
>>>>>> that route.
>>>>>> Where I was going when I was talking about the different student
>>>>>> divisions was that I don't want it to become a point of
>>>>>> contension on
>>>>>> the list. I don't want people going to war over which
>>>>>> organization's
>>>>>> philosophy prepares people to deal with social and dating
>>>>>> situations
>>>>>> better. It's fine for people to be part of whatever they so
>>>>>> choose,
>>>>>> but I absolutely will not tolerate stereotypes about either one.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> want it to be a safe place where people can feel open enough to
>>>>>> discuss such uncomfortable and embarrassing topics as their
>>>>>> social
>>>>>> awkwardness. If someone starts saying that joining the NFB
>>>>>> would help
>>>>>> them be more independent, or that the ACB is crap, well, what
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> that solve? I'm not a member of either, nor do I ever intend on
>>>>>> doing
>>>>>> so, so I feel that I could nip this stuff in the bud if it would
>>>>>> happen, and I'm not even saying it necessarily would become a
>>>>>> problem,
>>>>>> it's just something to consider.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9/19/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>> Frankly I don't know what the difference between the ACB's
>>>>>> student and
>>>>>> NFB's
>>>>>>
>>>>>> student division is. We are all dealing with exactly the same
>>>>>> things. So
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> really believe we should get our sighted parents, friends and
>>>>>> whatnot to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>>
>>>>>> on the list to answer questions we may have. Many TVIs would
>>>>>> jump at the
>>>>>> chance to be on a list serve devoted to socializing.
>>>>>> Just make a group, possibly:
>>>>>> bseb at googlegroups.com or something :). Being socially
>>>>>> acceptable blind or
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cooler name LOL... Any ideas?
>>>>>> I even think this should have a website with different articles
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> can brows to answer any personal questions they may have.
>>>>>> Because this is
>>>>>> such a big issue.
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Desiree Oudinot
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 9:29 PM
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
>>>>>> sighted
>>>>>> societyat
>>>>>>
>>>>>> social gatherings
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And this is precisely why I wanted to create a separate list to
>>>>>> discuss these kinds of issues and more. And, at the risk of
>>>>>> offending
>>>>>> people, I wanted it to be a separate list, separate from the NFB
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> ACB, I wanted it to be the place for every blind person, no
>>>>>> matter
>>>>>> their political or social status or whatever, to discuss how
>>>>>> they fit
>>>>>> in with society. Why does it offend you that blind people,
>>>>>> whether
>>>>>> they be men or women, should try to do their best to interact as
>>>>>> sighted people do? Are there really specific guidelines we have
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> follow? I really want to understand this. I know as well as
>>>>>> anyone
>>>>>> what struggles we have to go through growing up just to be
>>>>>> treated
>>>>>> like human beings. First, we're blind people, then we're young,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> the stereotypes surrounding young people of our generation are
>>>>>> just as
>>>>>> crippling as those surrounding being blind. So being dealt both
>>>>>> as our
>>>>>> hand in life is kind of a double whammy. I still struggle when
>>>>>> someone
>>>>>> actually treats me as an equal. I want to run away.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9/14/12, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> I've tried to avoid getting into this thread, but here goes:
>>>>>> 1. Blind people acting like sighted people scares the crap out
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> me because it just does for some reason.
>>>>>> 2. Girls' conformity rules are terrible: for instance, girls
>>>>>> shouldn't be scientists. What does that statement say about us
>>>>>> girls? Girls should be married to men with decent jobs. No, I
>>>>>> will not marry a man with any job so I can be taken care of, and
>>>>>> this isn't the friggin' 1800's. Girls and women can take care
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> themselves, and they can work and support families. Jason, my
>>>>>> current bf, does not work and can't do what society says, be a
>>>>>> man and work and get paid for the woman. Some societies demand
>>>>>> that all men work and women stay home. We, Americans though we
>>>>>> are, still have these demands on blind women. I as a blind
>>>>>> woman
>>>>>> cannot accept conformity or defeat due to womanhood. Since
>>>>>> Jason
>>>>>> can't work and follow society's rules of manhood, it's up to me
>>>>>> to do it. Girls should not always do typing, nursing, or
>>>>>> different "womanly" professions where they get paid less than
>>>>>> ordinary men. Jason, due to his disability, does not work. I,
>>>>>> due to mental illness, may never work. I want to work so bad,
>>>>>> but where? Goodwill is out of the question. I'm not working
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> nothing or low wages because I'm a woman. And no way will I
>>>>>> accept sexual harassment because I have breasts and different
>>>>>> organs inside me. I as a blind woman will not accept rules
>>>>>> saying "You will be taken care of. You will be a stay-at-home
>>>>>> wife. You will be poor." No way.
>>>>>> Beth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Date sent: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:37:00 -0600
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
>>>>>> sighted societyat social gatherings
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chris wrote,
>>>>>> Therefore, it is important that we know the unwritten rules
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> our sighted society has made. If we don't know them and follow
>>>>>> them, what does that say about us as blind people? It says we
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> weird, different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alternatively, perhaps it says that those rules are not natural,
>>>>>> that they are the product of sighted people simply aping one
>>>>>> another, and that they are arbitrary. I believe that such
>>>>>> unwritten rules often needlessly cause huge amounts of anxiety,
>>>>>> self-loathing, and anguish.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We had a similar discussion on this list some time ago,
>>>>>> particularly around the subject of so called "blindisms, and I
>>>>>> put that term in quotes as a way of acknowledging that it is
>>>>>> pejorative. I'm sure it could be found on line by anyone who is
>>>>>> interested.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Personally, I would rather live in a world where blind people
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> accepted and respected not simply to the extent that they can
>>>>>> look and act like sighted people, but on the grounds that they
>>>>>> are human beings possessing dignity and as equally worthy of
>>>>>> respect as sighted people. The message shouldn't be, "hey, we
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> follow your rules, so you should accept us". Instead, the
>>>>>> message
>>>>>> should be, "we, like you, have many talents and weaknesses, feel
>>>>>> pleasure and pain, reach our full potential through the
>>>>>> formation
>>>>>> of deep and meaningful relationships with other human beings,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> your failure to treat us with respect and as equals is unfair,
>>>>>> discriminatory, and immoral", to borrow from Mr. Lewis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By the way, I think this goes well beyond blind people fitting
>>>>>> into sighted society. We are constantly policing one another's
>>>>>> behaviour. Probably one of the more obvious examples of this
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> to do with gender. There are hundreds if not thousands of
>>>>>> mostly
>>>>>> unspoken rules about what makes a man a man and how real men
>>>>>> ought to behave, and there are twice as many concerning women.
>>>>>> These rules are enforced in subtle but effective ways, and the
>>>>>> result is often a great deal of suffering for anyone who cannot,
>>>>>> or chooses not to, conform. These gender rules are just as
>>>>>> arbitrary as those around sighted/blind behaviour, and the
>>>>>> effort
>>>>>> similarly should be to relax and remove such rules, not to more
>>>>>> explicitly and fervently teach boys and girls the so called
>>>>>> right
>>>>>> way to act.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is of course easier said than done, and failing to conform
>>>>>> does unfortunately often result in suffering, such as missed
>>>>>> social, volunteer, and employment opportunities. So I don't
>>>>>> judge
>>>>>> or condemn anyone who makes a serious effort to learn the
>>>>>> unwritten rules of sighted society, just as I don't judge
>>>>>> someone
>>>>>> who wants to spend all of his or her time reading medical
>>>>>> journals and desperately praying for a cure. It's hard being
>>>>>> blind in the particular society in which we live, and conforming
>>>>>> can make things a little bit easier. But I still think we
>>>>>> should
>>>>>> work more on changing attitudes and less on teaching blind
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> how to look and act like sighted people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marc
>>>>>> On 2012-09-14, at 3:04 PM, Chris Nusbaum
>>>>>> <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Brandon and all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm taking the liberty here to change the subject of this
>>>>>> thread, as if we're going to discuss the topic which Brandon has
>>>>>> brought up in his post, I think it would prevent confusion if we
>>>>>> changed the subject to reflect the actual topic of Brandon's
>>>>>> message.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brandon, your idea about the NFB conducting some kind of
>>>>>> instructional seminar or workshop on social norms and how we can
>>>>>> "fit in" with the sighted public is a great one! I think you
>>>>>> should talk with the NFB leadership about this! I believe NOPBC
>>>>>> (the parents division) has touched on this topic in their
>>>>>> seminars at conventions. One of the topics at the parents
>>>>>> seminar at the Maryland state convention is almost always social
>>>>>> skills, especially what sighted society has deemed socially
>>>>>> acceptable and how we as blind people can fit in at social
>>>>>> gatherings, conforming as best we can to the "norms" of society.
>>>>>> I believe this is arguably more important for blind students, as
>>>>>> we are often in social gatherings (or want to be in them) at our
>>>>>> schools, with our friends, or in our communities. Therefore, it
>>>>>> is important that we know the unwritten rules which our sighted
>>>>>> society has made. If we don't know them and follow them, what
>>>>>> does that say about us as blind people? It says we are weird,
>>>>>> different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc. These are the
>>>>>> very adjectives we in the Federation have been working to cut
>>>>>> out
>>>>>> from the vocabulary of the public when in the context of
>>>>>> blindness and blind people. In other words, these are the very
>>>>>> things we don't want sighted people thinking about us. If this
>>>>>> is how sighted people perceive us, then it puts our ability to
>>>>>> get a job, volunteer in our community, and become first-class
>>>>>> citizens at risk. So, I think this would be a great thing for
>>>>>> the NFB to do, and one which I'm kind of surprised we're not
>>>>>> doing already. Also, since this is an important topic for blind
>>>>>> students, perhaps "social skills and norms" could be the topic
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> a future NABS membership call.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:15:16 -0700
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>> We aren't promoting sex among students, we are promoting safe
>>>>>> sex. There is
>>>>>> a huge difference. If the student division is the only one
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> some
>>>>>> practical sense about sexual activities, I'm a little scared...
>>>>>> :)
>>>>>> I do agree though, sex, dating and excepted socializing among a
>>>>>> sighted
>>>>>> community is a very big topic that is often times ignored by
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>> community.
>>>>>> I have been told by sighted TVIs that many blind folks (youth
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> not) have
>>>>>> some very strange mannerisms and beliefs that are totally
>>>>>> against the grain
>>>>>> of sighted society. My mom in particular, who is a TVI, has
>>>>>> suggested that
>>>>>> the NFB should really give some instruction on how the sighted
>>>>>> world thinks.
>>>>>> Otherwise what will happen (and what has happened) is the world
>>>>>> looks at a
>>>>>> gathering of blind people and cringes because they are so
>>>>>> weird.
>>>>>> or a
>>>>>> sighted girl sees a blind guy and thinks she wants to talk to
>>>>>> him and when
>>>>>> she is about to sit down and say hi, the guy does something
>>>>>> really weird and
>>>>>> she turns around and walks a mile away.
>>>>>> This is a little different than the deal with the condoms, but
>>>>>> both sexual
>>>>>> health and social issues are topics that are very much in need
>>>>>> of attention
>>>>>> among blind individuals, and students in particular.
>>>>>> I feel strongly that having some active workshops on this that
>>>>>> aren't meant
>>>>>> to be uncomfortable, but still deal with the taboo problems
>>>>>> would greatly
>>>>>> improve convention.
>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:18 PM
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>> I have joked in the past about how NABS should sell Brailled
>>>>>> Whozit
>>>>>> condoms at convention! Kidding aside, though, there are
>>>>>> probably
>>>>>> some
>>>>>> NFB leaders with more conservative leanings, who might feel
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> NABS
>>>>>> selling condoms at convention would be promoting sexual
>>>>>> activity
>>>>>> among
>>>>>> young or unmarried blind students. I don't agree with that
>>>>>> position,
>>>>>> but some people do and since anything NABS does is, by
>>>>>> extension, an
>>>>>> NFB-sanctioned event, we would need to balance the benefits of
>>>>>> providing condoms against possibly upsetting the NFB leadership
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> bringing on an unwanted political debate.
>>>>>> I would be more likely to support a NABS breakout session, at
>>>>>> Washington Seminar or elsewhere, about sexuality in general,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> perhaps include an opportunity to try putting a condom on the
>>>>>> proverbial banana or some such. When I was 15, I went to a
>>>>>> diversity
>>>>>> camp (for sighted teens) and there was a sexuality workshop
>>>>>> available
>>>>>> as one of several choices. They passed around condoms and in
>>>>>> fact,
>>>>>> this was the first time I actually felt one. A general
>>>>>> workshop
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> sex, dating and etiquette, etc. might be worth having.
>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>> This would be an awesome idea! Not only because many people
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> never
>>>>>> seen
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a condom, so they could finger the packages with labels without
>>>>>> having to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>>
>>>>>> embarrassed, but when I was at the hotel I didn't run into any
>>>>>> condoms in
>>>>>> the store. Granted I wasn't looking for them, but I was
>>>>>> browsing...
>>>>>> Condoms,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> lube and Dental Dams, all labeled in Braille! We would also
>>>>>> probably need
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>
>>>>>> provide guides for people on how to find the right way to put
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> a condom
>>>>>> or
>>>>>>
>>>>>> use a dental dam.
>>>>>> Another thing I didn't see at the NABS table is hot serial.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> packing
>>>>>> guide in the nabs newsletter said to pack a ton of things and
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> for one
>>>>>> don't keep hot serial in the house and I don't shop at places
>>>>>> that sell
>>>>>> hot
>>>>>>
>>>>>> serial, so wasn't able to grab a box. But I would have loved
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> buy a box
>>>>>> for even $10 or more, the breakfasts there were $10 alone...
>>>>>> (Then of
>>>>>> course
>>>>>>
>>>>>> we could sell bole and spoon packs for the poor folks who
>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>> bring
>>>>>> their
>>>>>>
>>>>>> own utensil's).
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Anmol Bhatia
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:28 AM
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You would be a good place to sell and buy condoms? At the NFB
>>>>>> convention...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps Nabs should sell condoms at the NABS table. We can
>>>>>> even
>>>>>> braille
>>>>>> them
>>>>>>
>>>>>> so the perso can know what kind of condoms they have. lol
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anmol
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me
>>>>>> sad.
>>>>>> Perhaps
>>>>>> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague,
>>>>>> like a breeze
>>>>>> among flowers.
>>>>>> Hellen Keller
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- On Sun, 9/9/12, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>, "National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>> list"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Date: Sunday, September 9, 2012, 10:54 PM
>>>>>> Hi, Brandon,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I went into a place in Denver to buy a dildo yes, on
>>>>>> the bigger, ribbed side to use in the old fashioned bath tub
>>>>>> I had at the time, to get myself off with the faucet.
>>>>>> Traditionally, I need something in my ass, to cum. If I
>>>>>> remember, the folks in their wer very cool, look at the
>>>>>> blind girl going to by herself a dildo! Don't worry! If
>>>>>> you're relaxed, and cool about what you're doing so will be
>>>>>> the bookstore, personnel. Let us know how goes it,
>>>>>> okay? At 04:52 PM 9/8/2012, SA Mobile wrote:
>>>>>> Those are the best places to get stuff as the staff are
>>>>>> professional and are trained to make customers feel at ease.
>>>>>> Just make sure the shop is of good repute.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>> Jedi
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 08/09/2012, at 12:36 PM, "Brandon Keith Biggs"
>>>>>> <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>> Thank goodness my father was a nurse and when I
>>>>>> turned 18, he said addio to being in with me at the doctor.
>>>>>> I do find it amusing though that some doctors are actually
>>>>>> really uncomfortable touching me because I'm blind... That
>>>>>> only happened after my dad started leaving the room.
>>>>>> Thank you Arielle for those websites. I don't feel
>>>>>> that condoms are something I want to buy from a website I've
>>>>>> never heard of before unless someone I know has gotten or
>>>>>> knows that site is trust worthy.
>>>>>> I was told that flavored condoms were only to be
>>>>>> used in oral intercourse. The same is not for lube I
>>>>>> presume?
>>>>>> Also, has anyone ever gone into a sex store? How
>>>>>> was it as a blind shopper? Even from sighted people I hear
>>>>>> the experience is often not pleasant.
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle
>>>>>> Silverman
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2012 10:00 AM
>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>> I know the recent discussions about sex and dating
>>>>>> are kind of in a
>>>>>> gray area as to whether or not they're on-topic
>>>>>> for this list, since
>>>>>> most of the issues Koby brought up are not really
>>>>>> unique to blindness.
>>>>>> So if the moderators or Dave feel this is getting
>>>>>> too far afield, I
>>>>>> will happily respect your judgment. However, I
>>>>>> also think that
>>>>>> Brandon's question about where to get condoms is a
>>>>>> legitimate one and
>>>>>> that there might be other blind people out here,
>>>>>> including teenagers,
>>>>>> who have similar concerns about how to get
>>>>>> condoms, birth control or
>>>>>> sexual health information without a lot of
>>>>>> awkwardness or
>>>>>> embarrassment. It can be particularly difficult if
>>>>>> you have to depend
>>>>>> on someone else (especially parents) for
>>>>>> transportation which can make
>>>>>> going to a clinic or drugstore difficult.
>>>>>> There are a few places to buy condoms online,
>>>>>> including
>>>>>> www.condomania.com
>>>>>> www.undercovercondoms.com
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> www.condomdepot.com
>>>>>> Believe it or not, they also have some condom
>>>>>> choices at
>>>>>> www.amazon.com
>>>>>> If you go to your health center on campus for any
>>>>>> reason, it shouldn't
>>>>>> be a problem to ask a doctor or nurse there
>>>>>> about condoms.
>>>>>> I cannot answer the questions about when to begin
>>>>>> having sex with a
>>>>>> partner because that is a highly individual
>>>>>> decision. However, I feel
>>>>>> it important that anyone who is considering having
>>>>>> sex for the first
>>>>>> time ensure you understand what all of your
>>>>>> options are for preventing
>>>>>> pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases, the
>>>>>> advantages and
>>>>>> disadvantages of each option, and the proper way
>>>>>> to use condoms and
>>>>>> birth control. There are a couple different
>>>>>> websites with this kind
>>>>>> of information:
>>>>>> www.plannedparenthood.org
>>>>>> (includes live chat with a sexual health educator)
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> www.scarleteen.com
>>>>>> This issue is particularly close to my heart at
>>>>>> the moment because my
>>>>>> boyfriend's sister just had an unintended
>>>>>> pregnancy at a very
>>>>>> inopportune time (while still in college, with a
>>>>>> guy she had only
>>>>>> known for a few months) and was apparently taking
>>>>>> birth control pills,
>>>>>> but had not been taking them consistently. While I
>>>>>> don't believe that
>>>>>> sex should be feared, it is something that
>>>>>> takes some responsibility,
>>>>>> planning and foresight to ensure it is enjoyable
>>>>>> while minimizing the
>>>>>> risks. Also, while I won't go into details here,
>>>>>> there are other ways
>>>>>> to be physically intimate with someone that are
>>>>>> less risky, which
>>>>>> these online forums will talk about.
>>>>>> I also want to bring up an issue that is
>>>>>> somewhat relevant to sexual
>>>>>> health, which I experienced and I think that some
>>>>>> of you might also be
>>>>>> struggling with. This is the issue of having your
>>>>>> parents drive you to
>>>>>> doctors' appointments and then having them want to
>>>>>> sit in or even
>>>>>> participate in your appointments. Since I attended
>>>>>> college in my home
>>>>>> city, my mother always wanted to drive me to my
>>>>>> doctors' appointments
>>>>>> and would then want to come in and chat with the
>>>>>> doctor while he/she
>>>>>> was examining me. This was partly because my
>>>>>> parents and I saw many of
>>>>>> the same doctors and she often thought it was a
>>>>>> good opportunity to
>>>>>> ask the doctor a quick question about her own
>>>>>> health while she was
>>>>>> there, or because she was curious to see what the
>>>>>> doctor recommended
>>>>>> to me about a particular issue. I eventually
>>>>>> realized that while it
>>>>>> wasn't ill-intentioned, it was a violation of my
>>>>>> privacy as an adult
>>>>>> patient and I asked her to wait in the waiting
>>>>>> room while I was seeing
>>>>>> the doctor. I didn't actually take this stand
>>>>>> until I was 21 and in
>>>>>> hindsight I wish I had done it much earlier.
>>>>>> By the time you are 18,
>>>>>> unless you have a serious cognitive disability,
>>>>>> you have a right to
>>>>>> privacy of your medical information and it is
>>>>>> important to establish a
>>>>>> good doctor-patient relationship without a third
>>>>>> person interfering.
>>>>>> This is especially true when it comes to sexual
>>>>>> health and by the time
>>>>>> you are 18 or even 16, you will want to start
>>>>>> discussing your sexual
>>>>>> activities or questions with your doctors without
>>>>>> your parents being
>>>>>> around. You might also want to consider getting a
>>>>>> driver or even
>>>>>> taking the bus to medical appointments to avoid
>>>>>> this problem.
>>>>>> On a related note, by the time you are in high
>>>>>> school, you should know
>>>>>> the names of all medications you take on a
>>>>>> regular basis and any
>>>>>> chronic medical conditions you may have. If you
>>>>>> ever have to go to the
>>>>>> emergency room, this kind of information may
>>>>>> be requested of you.
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>>>>>> your account info for nabs-l:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb
>>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi
>>>>>> %40samobile.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> 40yahoo.com
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> iggs%40gmail.com
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
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