[nabs-l] Listening vs. Watching
Carly Mihalakis
carlymih at comcast.net
Sat Sep 22 14:16:24 UTC 2012
Who needs to be technical??? Is not life far too temporary for such
minutia?At 09:02 AM 9/21/2012, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>Hi all,
>Frankly, I think we as blind people have much bigger fish to fry than
>worrying about whether to say we watch or listen to stuff. We should
>use the terms we feel comfortable with and that sound appropriate even
>if they aren't technically correct. Hopefully a sighted conversation
>partner will be able to get the meaning of what you're saying and move
>on instead of freaking out about the technicalities of whether or not
>you can actually see something.
>It goes the other way too. I often get emails from sighted people (as
>well as blind people) that end with "Hope to hear from you soon".
>Literally what they mean is "hope to see a written response from you
>on my computer screen soon". Should I correct them and say, "I'm
>sending you a response in text, not voice, so you should have said
>hope to read from you soon?" I think not. Or maybe I should start
>saying "smell you later" to my boyfriend when I leave for work? Again,
>that would be highly inappropriate, even though when I say "I'll see
>you later" I won't literally be seeing him. OK, I think you get the
>idea.
>Arielle
>On 9/21/12, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
> > Movies on a computer can be on MP3 or they can have video. I
> would maintain
> > that if you are sitting there with a movie on the
> > computer that is in MP3 format and you say you are watching it, you are
> > going to come across more out of touch with the world than
> > saying you are listening to it. Also, the fact is that when I
> enjoy a movie
> > I am listening to it while I would never be watching
> > music so those two examples are really not interchangeable as you have
> > indicated. Having said that, I do tend to say that I
> > watched a given thing on TV and that I haven't seen this or that movie just
> > because it makes sense, but I think this sort of thing
> > can be carried too far. We are going to be judged far more by such things
> > as whether we can travel independently, for example,
> > rather than whether we watch or listen to TV. I agree with the sentiment
> > expressed by someone else that we are incorrect to think
> > that there is one social norm that is conformed to by all sighted people.
> > This is not meant to support inappropriate behavior
> > such as picking up food with one's fingers that clearly is not
> meant to be a
> > finger food, or not paying attention to what is going
> > on around us. When my co-worker argued with me about watching TV, I had
> > frankly never thought about the apparent conflict in what
> > I was saying. The verb "watched" just went with TV for me, as it does for
> > you. However, I have come to realize that for some,
> > using that term makes them wonder if there is some device that I have that
> > let's me get some sense of what is being displayed. I
> > now understand that my use of that term may raise questions in the minds of
> > some, and if it is apparent, I can take the time to
> > explain. When I thought about it, my co-worker was not really wrong and
> > deserved something more than my anger, I do not
> > physically watch TV. He saw me as an independent and capable blind person,
> > so it didn't make sense to him that I would use the
> > word "watched." To him, it was a sort of denial of my circumstances that
> > was inconsistent with how I live my life. Life just
> > isn't all that simple sometimes.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Steve Jacobson
> >
> > On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 22:45:46 -0400, Desiree Oudinot wrote:
> >
> >>The same logic can be applied to described movies that are on the
> >>computer, since they're usually in mp3 format. But why be so picky? A
> >>movie is a movie. It was made into a format that was meant to be taken
> >>in visually. Watching it seems the normal way to say what you're
> >>doing, and frankly, saying you're listening to a movie just sounds
> >>weird to me. Would you ever say you're watching music? Sure, you could
> >>if you're watching a music video, but unless you're tripping on acid,
> >>I'm pretty sure your senses aren't getting shuffled around.
> >>As for someone getting offended because you said you were watching
> >>something, that's exactly the kind of behavior that makes me really
> >>mad. I had an English teacher once who said that I wasn't allowed to
> >>say words such as look or see because I couldn't possibly understand
> >>them, and she would make me edit my papers so those words weren't
> >>included. And then there was the time she yelled at me because I said
> >>in one story that a cat had stopped at night to rest, because
> >>apparently I was implying that cats can't see in the dark, and what
> >>would I know about that!
> >
> >>On 9/20/12, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
> >>> Okay, so if I have a TV show on but it is running through my stereo with
> >>> no
> >>> TV screen, am I watching it or am I listening to it.
> >>> I got into kind of an argument with a sighted co-worker once when I told
> >>> him
> >>> what I had watched on TV and he felt strongly that
> >>> for me to say I was watching TV was not accurate. He actually saw it as
> >>> me
> >>> sort of pretending inasmuch as I did not watch it.
> >>> The upshot is that we are going to be measured more broadly than that.
> >>>
> >>> Best regards,
> >>>
> >>> Steve
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 00:00:21 -0400, Desiree Oudinot wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>Listening to TV, huh? Could this not be a lesson in precisely what
> >>>>we're discussing here? If we want to fit into the sighted world, we'd
> >>>>do well to say we're watching TV or a movie like everyone else. I hate
> >>>>it when someone gets all flustered and up in arms when they can't
> >>>>think of a politically correct way to ask us blind folks what shows we
> >>>>like, or worse yet, if we can enjoy the cinema at all. you're not
> >>>>helping by spurring that misconception on.
> >>>
> >>>>On 9/19/12, Sarah <coastergirl92 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Hello everyone, my name is Sarah. I am bj years old. I just
> >>>>> graduated a program called D.P.I. Davidson Program For
> >>>>> Independence. I had to go there because Guide Dogs Of the Desert
> >>>>> said I had to go. So I graduated from there, tomorrow I go get
> >>>>> my first guide dog! My interests are rides, reading, listening to
> >>>>> tv, dogs and horses
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> >>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> Date sent: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 13:48:32 -0700
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
> >>>>> sighted societyatsocial gatherings
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hello,
> >>>>> There are quite a few ideas that are universal through out
> >>>>> cultures.
> >>>>> For example, it is never socially acceptable to sway in
> >>>>> conversation. It is
> >>>>> only acceptable to rock back and forth mildly when playing guitar
> >>>>> or more
> >>>>> heavily when one is studying the old testament as a Jew.
> >>>>> Otherwise chin up, strait and relaxed stillness for the torso
> >>>>> almost always.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Also, facial expressions are almost constant through out all
> >>>>> cultures. A
> >>>>> smile is always happy, big eyes are innocents or raised eyebrows,
> >>>>> big eyes
> >>>>> with mouth a little open is startled or scared.
> >>>>> Beckoning is also a very universal gesture with the fist out in
> >>>>> front facing
> >>>>> up with the index finger moving up and down like the person is a
> >>>>> balloon and
> >>>>> the string is on your finger...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Fit me in or something along that lines is more inclusive because
> >>>>> it means
> >>>>> one can ask about fitting in to their theater group, dance teem,
> >>>>> glee club,
> >>>>> getting in a relationship, dating...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I am not sure how people are expecting to fit into a sighted
> >>>>> world without
> >>>>> some sighted help.
> >>>>> Although I am guessing that the way the list will pan out is more
> >>>>> blind
> >>>>> people asking questions and both blind people and a few TVIs or
> >>>>> parents will
> >>>>> help. I am on a couple lists with quite a few sighted people and
> >>>>> with
> >>>>> questions like this they are invaluable...
> >>>>> Who knew that hugging yourself with your hands in a fist over
> >>>>> your heart, as
> >>>>> if you were trying to keep warm, actually looks like you are
> >>>>> terrified of
> >>>>> something?
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Arielle Silverman
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 12:24 PM
> >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
> >>>>> sighted societyat
> >>>>> social gatherings
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi all,
> >>>>> Sorry to be difficult but I am not willing to join a listserv
> >>>>> called
> >>>>> "Being Socially Acceptable Blind" or "Looking Sighted". Both
> >>>>> names
> >>>>> imply that all sighted people look and act the same or that
> >>>>> there is
> >>>>> only one way to be socially acceptable; these are notions that,
> >>>>> frankly, I believe are offensive to blind and sighted people
> >>>>> both.
> >>>>> I believe such a listserv should be intended to be a
> >>>>> nonjudgmental
> >>>>> forum where blind folks can ask questions or share frustrations
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> get supportive answers from blind peers and blind mentors, not a
> >>>>> place
> >>>>> where subscribers are told they must look and act a certain way.
> >>>>> Also,
> >>>>> while we might let TVI's join if they want, I think the vast
> >>>>> majority
> >>>>> of the subscribers should be blind people and we should keep
> >>>>> teachers
> >>>>> and authority figures to a minimum.
> >>>>> I'd support a name like "blind-fitting in", "blind-social" or
> >>>>> "blind-dating" perhaps.
> >>>>> If the group is created with a tolerant, non-judgmental name I'd
> >>>>> be
> >>>>> happy to help out with it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 9/19/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>> Names:
> >>>>> See me blind (SEM at blah.whatever)
> >>>>> Being Socially acceptable blind (SEB)
> >>>>> Looking Sighted (LS or LSighted)
> >>>>> talk sightless (TSightless)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Just some names...
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Desiree Oudinot
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 10:48 AM
> >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
> >>>>> sighted
> >>>>> societyat
> >>>>>
> >>>>> social gatherings
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That's actually a pretty good idea for a name. That was the
> >>>>> only thing
> >>>>> holding me back from creating a group, the fact I couldn't
> >>>>> really
> >>>>> think of a name for it. As for making a website, that would be
> >>>>> a cool
> >>>>> idea too, but I don't know html or anything, so I decided not to
> >>>>> go
> >>>>> that route.
> >>>>> Where I was going when I was talking about the different student
> >>>>> divisions was that I don't want it to become a point of
> >>>>> contension on
> >>>>> the list. I don't want people going to war over which
> >>>>> organization's
> >>>>> philosophy prepares people to deal with social and dating
> >>>>> situations
> >>>>> better. It's fine for people to be part of whatever they so
> >>>>> choose,
> >>>>> but I absolutely will not tolerate stereotypes about either one.
> >>>>> I
> >>>>> want it to be a safe place where people can feel open enough to
> >>>>> discuss such uncomfortable and embarrassing topics as their
> >>>>> social
> >>>>> awkwardness. If someone starts saying that joining the NFB
> >>>>> would help
> >>>>> them be more independent, or that the ACB is crap, well, what
> >>>>> will
> >>>>> that solve? I'm not a member of either, nor do I ever intend on
> >>>>> doing
> >>>>> so, so I feel that I could nip this stuff in the bud if it would
> >>>>> happen, and I'm not even saying it necessarily would become a
> >>>>> problem,
> >>>>> it's just something to consider.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 9/19/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>> Hello,
> >>>>> Frankly I don't know what the difference between the ACB's
> >>>>> student and
> >>>>> NFB's
> >>>>>
> >>>>> student division is. We are all dealing with exactly the same
> >>>>> things. So
> >>>>> I
> >>>>> really believe we should get our sighted parents, friends and
> >>>>> whatnot to
> >>>>> be
> >>>>>
> >>>>> on the list to answer questions we may have. Many TVIs would
> >>>>> jump at the
> >>>>> chance to be on a list serve devoted to socializing.
> >>>>> Just make a group, possibly:
> >>>>> bseb at googlegroups.com or something :). Being socially
> >>>>> acceptable blind or
> >>>>>
> >>>>> a
> >>>>>
> >>>>> cooler name LOL... Any ideas?
> >>>>> I even think this should have a website with different articles
> >>>>> that
> >>>>> someone
> >>>>>
> >>>>> can brows to answer any personal questions they may have.
> >>>>> Because this is
> >>>>> such a big issue.
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Desiree Oudinot
> >>>>> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 9:29 PM
> >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
> >>>>> sighted
> >>>>> societyat
> >>>>>
> >>>>> social gatherings
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And this is precisely why I wanted to create a separate list to
> >>>>> discuss these kinds of issues and more. And, at the risk of
> >>>>> offending
> >>>>> people, I wanted it to be a separate list, separate from the NFB
> >>>>> or
> >>>>> ACB, I wanted it to be the place for every blind person, no
> >>>>> matter
> >>>>> their political or social status or whatever, to discuss how
> >>>>> they fit
> >>>>> in with society. Why does it offend you that blind people,
> >>>>> whether
> >>>>> they be men or women, should try to do their best to interact as
> >>>>> sighted people do? Are there really specific guidelines we have
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> follow? I really want to understand this. I know as well as
> >>>>> anyone
> >>>>> what struggles we have to go through growing up just to be
> >>>>> treated
> >>>>> like human beings. First, we're blind people, then we're young,
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> the stereotypes surrounding young people of our generation are
> >>>>> just as
> >>>>> crippling as those surrounding being blind. So being dealt both
> >>>>> as our
> >>>>> hand in life is kind of a double whammy. I still struggle when
> >>>>> someone
> >>>>> actually treats me as an equal. I want to run away.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 9/14/12, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> I've tried to avoid getting into this thread, but here goes:
> >>>>> 1. Blind people acting like sighted people scares the crap out
> >>>>> of
> >>>>> me because it just does for some reason.
> >>>>> 2. Girls' conformity rules are terrible: for instance, girls
> >>>>> shouldn't be scientists. What does that statement say about us
> >>>>> girls? Girls should be married to men with decent jobs. No, I
> >>>>> will not marry a man with any job so I can be taken care of, and
> >>>>> this isn't the friggin' 1800's. Girls and women can take care
> >>>>> of
> >>>>> themselves, and they can work and support families. Jason, my
> >>>>> current bf, does not work and can't do what society says, be a
> >>>>> man and work and get paid for the woman. Some societies demand
> >>>>> that all men work and women stay home. We, Americans though we
> >>>>> are, still have these demands on blind women. I as a blind
> >>>>> woman
> >>>>> cannot accept conformity or defeat due to womanhood. Since
> >>>>> Jason
> >>>>> can't work and follow society's rules of manhood, it's up to me
> >>>>> to do it. Girls should not always do typing, nursing, or
> >>>>> different "womanly" professions where they get paid less than
> >>>>> ordinary men. Jason, due to his disability, does not work. I,
> >>>>> due to mental illness, may never work. I want to work so bad,
> >>>>> but where? Goodwill is out of the question. I'm not working
> >>>>> for
> >>>>> nothing or low wages because I'm a woman. And no way will I
> >>>>> accept sexual harassment because I have breasts and different
> >>>>> organs inside me. I as a blind woman will not accept rules
> >>>>> saying "You will be taken care of. You will be a stay-at-home
> >>>>> wife. You will be poor." No way.
> >>>>> Beth
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com
> >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> Date sent: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:37:00 -0600
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
> >>>>> sighted societyat social gatherings
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Chris wrote,
> >>>>> Therefore, it is important that we know the unwritten rules
> >>>>> which
> >>>>> our sighted society has made. If we don't know them and follow
> >>>>> them, what does that say about us as blind people? It says we
> >>>>> are
> >>>>> weird, different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Alternatively, perhaps it says that those rules are not natural,
> >>>>> that they are the product of sighted people simply aping one
> >>>>> another, and that they are arbitrary. I believe that such
> >>>>> unwritten rules often needlessly cause huge amounts of anxiety,
> >>>>> self-loathing, and anguish.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> We had a similar discussion on this list some time ago,
> >>>>> particularly around the subject of so called "blindisms, and I
> >>>>> put that term in quotes as a way of acknowledging that it is
> >>>>> pejorative. I'm sure it could be found on line by anyone who is
> >>>>> interested.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Personally, I would rather live in a world where blind people
> >>>>> are
> >>>>> accepted and respected not simply to the extent that they can
> >>>>> look and act like sighted people, but on the grounds that they
> >>>>> are human beings possessing dignity and as equally worthy of
> >>>>> respect as sighted people. The message shouldn't be, "hey, we
> >>>>> can
> >>>>> follow your rules, so you should accept us". Instead, the
> >>>>> message
> >>>>> should be, "we, like you, have many talents and weaknesses, feel
> >>>>> pleasure and pain, reach our full potential through the
> >>>>> formation
> >>>>> of deep and meaningful relationships with other human beings,
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> your failure to treat us with respect and as equals is unfair,
> >>>>> discriminatory, and immoral", to borrow from Mr. Lewis.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> By the way, I think this goes well beyond blind people fitting
> >>>>> into sighted society. We are constantly policing one another's
> >>>>> behaviour. Probably one of the more obvious examples of this
> >>>>> has
> >>>>> to do with gender. There are hundreds if not thousands of
> >>>>> mostly
> >>>>> unspoken rules about what makes a man a man and how real men
> >>>>> ought to behave, and there are twice as many concerning women.
> >>>>> These rules are enforced in subtle but effective ways, and the
> >>>>> result is often a great deal of suffering for anyone who cannot,
> >>>>> or chooses not to, conform. These gender rules are just as
> >>>>> arbitrary as those around sighted/blind behaviour, and the
> >>>>> effort
> >>>>> similarly should be to relax and remove such rules, not to more
> >>>>> explicitly and fervently teach boys and girls the so called
> >>>>> right
> >>>>> way to act.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This is of course easier said than done, and failing to conform
> >>>>> does unfortunately often result in suffering, such as missed
> >>>>> social, volunteer, and employment opportunities. So I don't
> >>>>> judge
> >>>>> or condemn anyone who makes a serious effort to learn the
> >>>>> unwritten rules of sighted society, just as I don't judge
> >>>>> someone
> >>>>> who wants to spend all of his or her time reading medical
> >>>>> journals and desperately praying for a cure. It's hard being
> >>>>> blind in the particular society in which we live, and conforming
> >>>>> can make things a little bit easier. But I still think we
> >>>>> should
> >>>>> work more on changing attitudes and less on teaching blind
> >>>>> people
> >>>>> how to look and act like sighted people.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Marc
> >>>>> On 2012-09-14, at 3:04 PM, Chris Nusbaum
> >>>>> <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi Brandon and all,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm taking the liberty here to change the subject of this
> >>>>> thread, as if we're going to discuss the topic which Brandon has
> >>>>> brought up in his post, I think it would prevent confusion if we
> >>>>> changed the subject to reflect the actual topic of Brandon's
> >>>>> message.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Brandon, your idea about the NFB conducting some kind of
> >>>>> instructional seminar or workshop on social norms and how we can
> >>>>> "fit in" with the sighted public is a great one! I think you
> >>>>> should talk with the NFB leadership about this! I believe NOPBC
> >>>>> (the parents division) has touched on this topic in their
> >>>>> seminars at conventions. One of the topics at the parents
> >>>>> seminar at the Maryland state convention is almost always social
> >>>>> skills, especially what sighted society has deemed socially
> >>>>> acceptable and how we as blind people can fit in at social
> >>>>> gatherings, conforming as best we can to the "norms" of society.
> >>>>> I believe this is arguably more important for blind students, as
> >>>>> we are often in social gatherings (or want to be in them) at our
> >>>>> schools, with our friends, or in our communities. Therefore, it
> >>>>> is important that we know the unwritten rules which our sighted
> >>>>> society has made. If we don't know them and follow them, what
> >>>>> does that say about us as blind people? It says we are weird,
> >>>>> different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc. These are the
> >>>>> very adjectives we in the Federation have been working to cut
> >>>>> out
> >>>>> from the vocabulary of the public when in the context of
> >>>>> blindness and blind people. In other words, these are the very
> >>>>> things we don't want sighted people thinking about us. If this
> >>>>> is how sighted people perceive us, then it puts our ability to
> >>>>> get a job, volunteer in our community, and become first-class
> >>>>> citizens at risk. So, I think this would be a great thing for
> >>>>> the NFB to do, and one which I'm kind of surprised we're not
> >>>>> doing already. Also, since this is an important topic for blind
> >>>>> students, perhaps "social skills and norms" could be the topic
> >>>>> of
> >>>>> a future NABS membership call.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Just my thoughts,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Chris
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> >>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:15:16 -0700
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hello,
> >>>>> We aren't promoting sex among students, we are promoting safe
> >>>>> sex. There is
> >>>>> a huge difference. If the student division is the only one
> >>>>> with
> >>>>> some
> >>>>> practical sense about sexual activities, I'm a little scared...
> >>>>> :)
> >>>>> I do agree though, sex, dating and excepted socializing among a
> >>>>> sighted
> >>>>> community is a very big topic that is often times ignored by
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> blind
> >>>>> community.
> >>>>> I have been told by sighted TVIs that many blind folks (youth
> >>>>> or
> >>>>> not) have
> >>>>> some very strange mannerisms and beliefs that are totally
> >>>>> against the grain
> >>>>> of sighted society. My mom in particular, who is a TVI, has
> >>>>> suggested that
> >>>>> the NFB should really give some instruction on how the sighted
> >>>>> world thinks.
> >>>>> Otherwise what will happen (and what has happened) is the world
> >>>>> looks at a
> >>>>> gathering of blind people and cringes because they are so
> >>>>> weird.
> >>>>> or a
> >>>>> sighted girl sees a blind guy and thinks she wants to talk to
> >>>>> him and when
> >>>>> she is about to sit down and say hi, the guy does something
> >>>>> really weird and
> >>>>> she turns around and walks a mile away.
> >>>>> This is a little different than the deal with the condoms, but
> >>>>> both sexual
> >>>>> health and social issues are topics that are very much in need
> >>>>> of attention
> >>>>> among blind individuals, and students in particular.
> >>>>> I feel strongly that having some active workshops on this that
> >>>>> aren't meant
> >>>>> to be uncomfortable, but still deal with the taboo problems
> >>>>> would greatly
> >>>>> improve convention.
> >>>>> Thank you,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Arielle Silverman
> >>>>> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:18 PM
> >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi all,
> >>>>> I have joked in the past about how NABS should sell Brailled
> >>>>> Whozit
> >>>>> condoms at convention! Kidding aside, though, there are
> >>>>> probably
> >>>>> some
> >>>>> NFB leaders with more conservative leanings, who might feel
> >>>>> that
> >>>>> NABS
> >>>>> selling condoms at convention would be promoting sexual
> >>>>> activity
> >>>>> among
> >>>>> young or unmarried blind students. I don't agree with that
> >>>>> position,
> >>>>> but some people do and since anything NABS does is, by
> >>>>> extension, an
> >>>>> NFB-sanctioned event, we would need to balance the benefits of
> >>>>> providing condoms against possibly upsetting the NFB leadership
> >>>>> or
> >>>>> bringing on an unwanted political debate.
> >>>>> I would be more likely to support a NABS breakout session, at
> >>>>> Washington Seminar or elsewhere, about sexuality in general,
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> perhaps include an opportunity to try putting a condom on the
> >>>>> proverbial banana or some such. When I was 15, I went to a
> >>>>> diversity
> >>>>> camp (for sighted teens) and there was a sexuality workshop
> >>>>> available
> >>>>> as one of several choices. They passed around condoms and in
> >>>>> fact,
> >>>>> this was the first time I actually felt one. A general
> >>>>> workshop
> >>>>> about
> >>>>> sex, dating and etiquette, etc. might be worth having.
> >>>>> Arielle
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 9/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>> Hello,
> >>>>> This would be an awesome idea! Not only because many people
> >>>>> have
> >>>>> never
> >>>>> seen
> >>>>>
> >>>>> a condom, so they could finger the packages with labels without
> >>>>> having to
> >>>>> be
> >>>>>
> >>>>> embarrassed, but when I was at the hotel I didn't run into any
> >>>>> condoms in
> >>>>> the store. Granted I wasn't looking for them, but I was
> >>>>> browsing...
> >>>>> Condoms,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> lube and Dental Dams, all labeled in Braille! We would also
> >>>>> probably need
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>
> >>>>> provide guides for people on how to find the right way to put
> >>>>> on
> >>>>> a condom
> >>>>> or
> >>>>>
> >>>>> use a dental dam.
> >>>>> Another thing I didn't see at the NABS table is hot serial.
> >>>>> The
> >>>>> packing
> >>>>> guide in the nabs newsletter said to pack a ton of things and
> >>>>> I
> >>>>> for one
> >>>>> don't keep hot serial in the house and I don't shop at places
> >>>>> that sell
> >>>>> hot
> >>>>>
> >>>>> serial, so wasn't able to grab a box. But I would have loved
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> buy a box
> >>>>> for even $10 or more, the breakfasts there were $10 alone...
> >>>>> (Then of
> >>>>> course
> >>>>>
> >>>>> we could sell bole and spoon packs for the poor folks who
> >>>>> didn't
> >>>>> bring
> >>>>> their
> >>>>>
> >>>>> own utensil's).
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Anmol Bhatia
> >>>>> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:28 AM
> >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You would be a good place to sell and buy condoms? At the NFB
> >>>>> convention...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Perhaps Nabs should sell condoms at the NABS table. We can
> >>>>> even
> >>>>> braille
> >>>>> them
> >>>>>
> >>>>> so the perso can know what kind of condoms they have. lol
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Anmol
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me
> >>>>> sad.
> >>>>> Perhaps
> >>>>> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague,
> >>>>> like a breeze
> >>>>> among flowers.
> >>>>> Hellen Keller
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --- On Sun, 9/9/12, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> From: Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
> >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> >>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>, "National Association of Blind Students
> >>>>> mailing
> >>>>> list"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> Date: Sunday, September 9, 2012, 10:54 PM
> >>>>> Hi, Brandon,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I went into a place in Denver to buy a dildo yes, on
> >>>>> the bigger, ribbed side to use in the old fashioned bath tub
> >>>>> I had at the time, to get myself off with the faucet.
> >>>>> Traditionally, I need something in my ass, to cum. If I
> >>>>> remember, the folks in their wer very cool, look at the
> >>>>> blind girl going to by herself a dildo! Don't worry! If
> >>>>> you're relaxed, and cool about what you're doing so will be
> >>>>> the bookstore, personnel. Let us know how goes it,
> >>>>> okay? At 04:52 PM 9/8/2012, SA Mobile wrote:
> >>>>> Those are the best places to get stuff as the staff are
> >>>>> professional and are trained to make customers feel at ease.
> >>>>> Just make sure the shop is of good repute.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Respectfully,
> >>>>> Jedi
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 08/09/2012, at 12:36 PM, "Brandon Keith Biggs"
> >>>>> <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hello,
> >>>>> Thank goodness my father was a nurse and when I
> >>>>> turned 18, he said addio to being in with me at the doctor.
> >>>>> I do find it amusing though that some doctors are actually
> >>>>> really uncomfortable touching me because I'm blind... That
> >>>>> only happened after my dad started leaving the room.
> >>>>> Thank you Arielle for those websites. I don't feel
> >>>>> that condoms are something I want to buy from a website I've
> >>>>> never heard of before unless someone I know has gotten or
> >>>>> knows that site is trust worthy.
> >>>>> I was told that flavored condoms were only to be
> >>>>> used in oral intercourse. The same is not for lube I
> >>>>> presume?
> >>>>> Also, has anyone ever gone into a sex store? How
> >>>>> was it as a blind shopper? Even from sighted people I hear
> >>>>> the experience is often not pleasant.
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
> >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle
> >>>>> Silverman
> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2012 10:00 AM
> >>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi all,
> >>>>> I know the recent discussions about sex and dating
> >>>>> are kind of in a
> >>>>> gray area as to whether or not they're on-topic
> >>>>> for this list, since
> >>>>> most of the issues Koby brought up are not really
> >>>>> unique to blindness.
> >>>>> So if the moderators or Dave feel this is getting
> >>>>> too far afield, I
> >>>>> will happily respect your judgment. However, I
> >>>>> also think that
> >>>>> Brandon's question about where to get condoms is a
> >>>>> legitimate one and
> >>>>> that there might be other blind people out here,
> >>>>> including teenagers,
> >>>>> who have similar concerns about how to get
> >>>>> condoms, birth control or
> >>>>> sexual health information without a lot of
> >>>>> awkwardness or
> >>>>> embarrassment. It can be particularly difficult if
> >>>>> you have to depend
> >>>>> on someone else (especially parents) for
> >>>>> transportation which can make
> >>>>> going to a clinic or drugstore difficult.
> >>>>> There are a few places to buy condoms online,
> >>>>> including
> >>>>> www.condomania.com
> >>>>> www.undercovercondoms.com
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> www.condomdepot.com
> >>>>> Believe it or not, they also have some condom
> >>>>> choices at
> >>>>> www.amazon.com
> >>>>> If you go to your health center on campus for any
> >>>>> reason, it shouldn't
> >>>>> be a problem to ask a doctor or nurse there
> >>>>> about condoms.
> >>>>> I cannot answer the questions about when to begin
> >>>>> having sex with a
> >>>>> partner because that is a highly individual
> >>>>> decision. However, I feel
> >>>>> it important that anyone who is considering having
> >>>>> sex for the first
> >>>>> time ensure you understand what all of your
> >>>>> options are for preventing
> >>>>> pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases, the
> >>>>> advantages and
> >>>>> disadvantages of each option, and the proper way
> >>>>> to use condoms and
> >>>>> birth control. There are a couple different
> >>>>> websites with this kind
> >>>>> of information:
> >>>>> www.plannedparenthood.org
> >>>>> (includes live chat with a sexual health educator)
> >>>>> or
> >>>>> www.scarleteen.com
> >>>>> This issue is particularly close to my heart at
> >>>>> the moment because my
> >>>>> boyfriend's sister just had an unintended
> >>>>> pregnancy at a very
> >>>>> inopportune time (while still in college, with a
> >>>>> guy she had only
> >>>>> known for a few months) and was apparently taking
> >>>>> birth control pills,
> >>>>> but had not been taking them consistently. While I
> >>>>> don't believe that
> >>>>> sex should be feared, it is something that
> >>>>> takes some responsibility,
> >>>>> planning and foresight to ensure it is enjoyable
> >>>>> while minimizing the
> >>>>> risks. Also, while I won't go into details here,
> >>>>> there are other ways
> >>>>> to be physically intimate with someone that are
> >>>>> less risky, which
> >>>>> these online forums will talk about.
> >>>>> I also want to bring up an issue that is
> >>>>> somewhat relevant to sexual
> >>>>> health, which I experienced and I think that some
> >>>>> of you might also be
> >>>>> struggling with. This is the issue of having your
> >>>>> parents drive you to
> >>>>> doctors' appointments and then having them want to
> >>>>> sit in or even
> >>>>> participate in your appointments. Since I attended
> >>>>> college in my home
> >>>>> city, my mother always wanted to drive me to my
> >>>>> doctors' appointments
> >>>>> and would then want to come in and chat with the
> >>>>> doctor while he/she
> >>>>> was examining me. This was partly because my
> >>>>> parents and I saw many of
> >>>>> the same doctors and she often thought it was a
> >>>>> good opportunity to
> >>>>> ask the doctor a quick question about her own
> >>>>> health while she was
> >>>>> there, or because she was curious to see what the
> >>>>> doctor recommended
> >>>>> to me about a particular issue. I eventually
> >>>>> realized that while it
> >>>>> wasn't ill-intentioned, it was a violation of my
> >>>>> privacy as an adult
> >>>>> patient and I asked her to wait in the waiting
> >>>>> room while I was seeing
> >>>>> the doctor. I didn't actually take this stand
> >>>>> until I was 21 and in
> >>>>> hindsight I wish I had done it much earlier.
> >>>>> By the time you are 18,
> >>>>> unless you have a serious cognitive disability,
> >>>>> you have a right to
> >>>>> privacy of your medical information and it is
> >>>>> important to establish a
> >>>>> good doctor-patient relationship without a third
> >>>>> person interfering.
> >>>>> This is especially true when it comes to sexual
> >>>>> health and by the time
> >>>>> you are 18 or even 16, you will want to start
> >>>>> discussing your sexual
> >>>>> activities or questions with your doctors without
> >>>>> your parents being
> >>>>> around. You might also want to consider getting a
> >>>>> driver or even
> >>>>> taking the bus to medical appointments to avoid
> >>>>> this problem.
> >>>>> On a related note, by the time you are in high
> >>>>> school, you should know
> >>>>> the names of all medications you take on a
> >>>>> regular basis and any
> >>>>> chronic medical conditions you may have. If you
> >>>>> ever have to go to the
> >>>>> emergency room, this kind of information may
> >>>>> be requested of you.
> >>>>> Best,
> >>>>> Arielle
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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> >>>>> your account info for nabs-l:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brandonkeithb
> >>>>> iggs%40gmail.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi
> >>>>> %40samobile.net
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>> 40yahoo.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
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> >>>>>
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> >>>>> iggs%40gmail.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
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> >>>>> mail.com
> >>>>>
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> >>>>>
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> >>>
> >>>>_______________________________________________
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> >>>> nabs-l:
> >>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobs
> on%40visi.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
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