[nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sighted societyatsocial gatherings
Chris Nusbaum
dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com
Sun Sep 23 17:22:43 UTC 2012
Hi Kirt,
"Hear you later" would sound kind of weird, but I agree with you. <Smile!> I
was just saying that I didn't think we should have a problem using "see" or
"watch," as these terms are part of the English vocabulary.
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Kirt Manwaring
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 1:09 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sighted
societyatsocial gatherings
Honestly...I don't really give a damn what word we all use. If you want to
say "hey...I listen to TV," it's no skin off my back. If you want to say
"hear you later," it doesn't really hurt me, even though it might make you
look odd in certain situations. (but sometimes looking odd can be good, I
guess...to lots of people it looks very odd when I cross a street, and I
definitely like not conforming to that particular social norm about blind
people, so who am I to judge?) It's kind of like how Thomas jefferson said
it Neither picked his pocket nor broke his leg" if his neighbors believed in
one god or twenty gods. Say whatever words you want, it doesn't really
affect my ability to do the same.
Best,
Kirt
On 9/21/12, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
> Movies on a computer can be on MP3 or they can have video. I would
> maintain that if you are sitting there with a movie on the computer
> that is in MP3 format and you say you are watching it, you are going
> to come across more out of touch with the world than saying you are
> listening to it. Also, the fact is that when I enjoy a movie I am
> listening to it while I would never be watching music so those two
> examples are really not interchangeable as you have indicated. Having
> said that, I do tend to say that I watched a given thing on TV and
> that I haven't seen this or that movie just because it makes sense,
> but I think this sort of thing can be carried too far. We are going
> to be judged far more by such things as whether we can travel
> independently, for example, rather than whether we watch or listen to
> TV. I agree with the sentiment expressed by someone else that we are
> incorrect to think that there is one social norm that is conformed to
> by all sighted people.
> This is not meant to support inappropriate behavior such as picking up
> food with one's fingers that clearly is not meant to be a finger food,
> or not paying attention to what is going on around us. When my
> co-worker argued with me about watching TV, I had frankly never
> thought about the apparent conflict in what I was saying. The verb
> "watched" just went with TV for me, as it does for you. However, I
> have come to realize that for some, using that term makes them wonder
> if there is some device that I have that let's me get some sense of
> what is being displayed. I now understand that my use of that term
> may raise questions in the minds of some, and if it is apparent, I can
> take the time to explain. When I thought about it, my co-worker was
> not really wrong and deserved something more than my anger, I do not
> physically watch TV. He saw me as an independent and capable blind
> person, so it didn't make sense to him that I would use the word
> "watched." To him, it was a sort of denial of my circumstances that
> was inconsistent with how I live my life. Life just isn't all that
> simple sometimes.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 22:45:46 -0400, Desiree Oudinot wrote:
>
>>The same logic can be applied to described movies that are on the
>>computer, since they're usually in mp3 format. But why be so picky? A
>>movie is a movie. It was made into a format that was meant to be taken
>>in visually. Watching it seems the normal way to say what you're
>>doing, and frankly, saying you're listening to a movie just sounds
>>weird to me. Would you ever say you're watching music? Sure, you could
>>if you're watching a music video, but unless you're tripping on acid,
>>I'm pretty sure your senses aren't getting shuffled around.
>>As for someone getting offended because you said you were watching
>>something, that's exactly the kind of behavior that makes me really
>>mad. I had an English teacher once who said that I wasn't allowed to
>>say words such as look or see because I couldn't possibly understand
>>them, and she would make me edit my papers so those words weren't
>>included. And then there was the time she yelled at me because I said
>>in one story that a cat had stopped at night to rest, because
>>apparently I was implying that cats can't see in the dark, and what
>>would I know about that!
>
>>On 9/20/12, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>> Okay, so if I have a TV show on but it is running through my stereo
>>> with no TV screen, am I watching it or am I listening to it.
>>> I got into kind of an argument with a sighted co-worker once when I
>>> told him what I had watched on TV and he felt strongly that for me
>>> to say I was watching TV was not accurate. He actually saw it as me
>>> sort of pretending inasmuch as I did not watch it.
>>> The upshot is that we are going to be measured more broadly than that.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 00:00:21 -0400, Desiree Oudinot wrote:
>>>
>>>>Listening to TV, huh? Could this not be a lesson in precisely what
>>>>we're discussing here? If we want to fit into the sighted world,
>>>>we'd do well to say we're watching TV or a movie like everyone else.
>>>>I hate it when someone gets all flustered and up in arms when they
>>>>can't think of a politically correct way to ask us blind folks what
>>>>shows we like, or worse yet, if we can enjoy the cinema at all.
>>>>you're not helping by spurring that misconception on.
>>>
>>>>On 9/19/12, Sarah <coastergirl92 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hello everyone, my name is Sarah. I am bj years old. I just
>>>>> graduated a program called D.P.I. Davidson Program For
>>>>> Independence. I had to go there because Guide Dogs Of the Desert
>>>>> said I had to go. So I graduated from there, tomorrow I go get my
>>>>> first guide dog! My interests are rides, reading, listening to tv,
>>>>> dogs and horses
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Date sent: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 13:48:32 -0700
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sighted
>>>>> societyatsocial gatherings
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> There are quite a few ideas that are universal through out
>>>>> cultures.
>>>>> For example, it is never socially acceptable to sway in
>>>>> conversation. It is only acceptable to rock back and forth mildly
>>>>> when playing guitar or more heavily when one is studying the old
>>>>> testament as a Jew.
>>>>> Otherwise chin up, strait and relaxed stillness for the torso
>>>>> almost always.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, facial expressions are almost constant through out all
>>>>> cultures. A smile is always happy, big eyes are innocents or
>>>>> raised eyebrows, big eyes with mouth a little open is startled or
>>>>> scared.
>>>>> Beckoning is also a very universal gesture with the fist out in
>>>>> front facing up with the index finger moving up and down like the
>>>>> person is a balloon and the string is on your finger...
>>>>>
>>>>> Fit me in or something along that lines is more inclusive because
>>>>> it means one can ask about fitting in to their theater group,
>>>>> dance teem, glee club, getting in a relationship, dating...
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not sure how people are expecting to fit into a sighted world
>>>>> without some sighted help.
>>>>> Although I am guessing that the way the list will pan out is more
>>>>> blind people asking questions and both blind people and a few TVIs
>>>>> or parents will help. I am on a couple lists with quite a few
>>>>> sighted people and with questions like this they are invaluable...
>>>>> Who knew that hugging yourself with your hands in a fist over your
>>>>> heart, as if you were trying to keep warm, actually looks like you
>>>>> are terrified of something?
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 12:24 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with sighted
>>>>> societyat social gatherings
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>> Sorry to be difficult but I am not willing to join a listserv
>>>>> called "Being Socially Acceptable Blind" or "Looking Sighted".
>>>>> Both names imply that all sighted people look and act the same or
>>>>> that there is only one way to be socially acceptable; these are
>>>>> notions that, frankly, I believe are offensive to blind and
>>>>> sighted people both.
>>>>> I believe such a listserv should be intended to be a nonjudgmental
>>>>> forum where blind folks can ask questions or share frustrations
>>>>> and get supportive answers from blind peers and blind mentors, not
>>>>> a place where subscribers are told they must look and act a
>>>>> certain way.
>>>>> Also,
>>>>> while we might let TVI's join if they want, I think the vast
>>>>> majority of the subscribers should be blind people and we should
>>>>> keep teachers and authority figures to a minimum.
>>>>> I'd support a name like "blind-fitting in", "blind-social" or
>>>>> "blind-dating" perhaps.
>>>>> If the group is created with a tolerant, non-judgmental name I'd
>>>>> be happy to help out with it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9/19/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Names:
>>>>> See me blind (SEM at blah.whatever)
>>>>> Being Socially acceptable blind (SEB) Looking Sighted (LS or
>>>>> LSighted) talk sightless (TSightless)
>>>>>
>>>>> Just some names...
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Desiree Oudinot
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 10:48 AM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
>>>>> sighted societyat
>>>>>
>>>>> social gatherings
>>>>>
>>>>> That's actually a pretty good idea for a name. That was the only
>>>>> thing holding me back from creating a group, the fact I couldn't
>>>>> really think of a name for it. As for making a website, that
>>>>> would be a cool idea too, but I don't know html or anything, so I
>>>>> decided not to go that route.
>>>>> Where I was going when I was talking about the different student
>>>>> divisions was that I don't want it to become a point of contension
>>>>> on the list. I don't want people going to war over which
>>>>> organization's philosophy prepares people to deal with social and
>>>>> dating situations better. It's fine for people to be part of
>>>>> whatever they so choose, but I absolutely will not tolerate
>>>>> stereotypes about either one.
>>>>> I
>>>>> want it to be a safe place where people can feel open enough to
>>>>> discuss such uncomfortable and embarrassing topics as their social
>>>>> awkwardness. If someone starts saying that joining the NFB would
>>>>> help them be more independent, or that the ACB is crap, well,
>>>>> what will that solve? I'm not a member of either, nor do I ever
>>>>> intend on doing so, so I feel that I could nip this stuff in the
>>>>> bud if it would happen, and I'm not even saying it necessarily
>>>>> would become a problem, it's just something to consider.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9/19/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> Frankly I don't know what the difference between the ACB's
>>>>> student and NFB's
>>>>>
>>>>> student division is. We are all dealing with exactly the same
>>>>> things. So I really believe we should get our sighted parents,
>>>>> friends and whatnot to be
>>>>>
>>>>> on the list to answer questions we may have. Many TVIs would
>>>>> jump at the chance to be on a list serve devoted to socializing.
>>>>> Just make a group, possibly:
>>>>> bseb at googlegroups.com or something :). Being socially acceptable
>>>>> blind or
>>>>>
>>>>> a
>>>>>
>>>>> cooler name LOL... Any ideas?
>>>>> I even think this should have a website with different articles
>>>>> that someone
>>>>>
>>>>> can brows to answer any personal questions they may have.
>>>>> Because this is
>>>>> such a big issue.
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Desiree Oudinot
>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 9:29 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
>>>>> sighted societyat
>>>>>
>>>>> social gatherings
>>>>>
>>>>> And this is precisely why I wanted to create a separate list to
>>>>> discuss these kinds of issues and more. And, at the risk of
>>>>> offending people, I wanted it to be a separate list, separate
>>>>> from the NFB or ACB, I wanted it to be the place for every blind
>>>>> person, no matter their political or social status or whatever,
>>>>> to discuss how they fit in with society. Why does it offend you
>>>>> that blind people, whether they be men or women, should try to do
>>>>> their best to interact as sighted people do? Are there really
>>>>> specific guidelines we have to follow? I really want to
>>>>> understand this. I know as well as anyone what struggles we have
>>>>> to go through growing up just to be treated like human beings.
>>>>> First, we're blind people, then we're young, and the stereotypes
>>>>> surrounding young people of our generation are just as crippling
>>>>> as those surrounding being blind. So being dealt both as our
>>>>> hand in life is kind of a double whammy. I still struggle when
>>>>> someone actually treats me as an equal. I want to run away.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9/14/12, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I've tried to avoid getting into this thread, but here goes:
>>>>> 1. Blind people acting like sighted people scares the crap out
>>>>> of me because it just does for some reason.
>>>>> 2. Girls' conformity rules are terrible: for instance, girls
>>>>> shouldn't be scientists. What does that statement say about us
>>>>> girls? Girls should be married to men with decent jobs. No, I
>>>>> will not marry a man with any job so I can be taken care of, and
>>>>> this isn't the friggin' 1800's. Girls and women can take care of
>>>>> themselves, and they can work and support families. Jason, my
>>>>> current bf, does not work and can't do what society says, be a
>>>>> man and work and get paid for the woman. Some societies demand
>>>>> that all men work and women stay home. We, Americans though we
>>>>> are, still have these demands on blind women. I as a blind woman
>>>>> cannot accept conformity or defeat due to womanhood. Since Jason
>>>>> can't work and follow society's rules of manhood, it's up to me
>>>>> to do it. Girls should not always do typing, nursing, or
>>>>> different "womanly" professions where they get paid less than
>>>>> ordinary men. Jason, due to his disability, does not work. I,
>>>>> due to mental illness, may never work. I want to work so bad,
>>>>> but where? Goodwill is out of the question. I'm not working for
>>>>> nothing or low wages because I'm a woman. And no way will I
>>>>> accept sexual harassment because I have breasts and different
>>>>> organs inside me. I as a blind woman will not accept rules
>>>>> saying "You will be taken care of. You will be a stay-at-home
>>>>> wife. You will be poor." No way.
>>>>> Beth
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org Date sent: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:37:00 -0600
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] social norms: how we can fit in with
>>>>> sighted societyat social gatherings
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris wrote,
>>>>> Therefore, it is important that we know the unwritten rules which
>>>>> our sighted society has made. If we don't know them and follow
>>>>> them, what does that say about us as blind people? It says we are
>>>>> weird, different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Alternatively, perhaps it says that those rules are not natural,
>>>>> that they are the product of sighted people simply aping one
>>>>> another, and that they are arbitrary. I believe that such
>>>>> unwritten rules often needlessly cause huge amounts of anxiety,
>>>>> self-loathing, and anguish.
>>>>>
>>>>> We had a similar discussion on this list some time ago,
>>>>> particularly around the subject of so called "blindisms, and I
>>>>> put that term in quotes as a way of acknowledging that it is
>>>>> pejorative. I'm sure it could be found on line by anyone who is
>>>>> interested.
>>>>>
>>>>> Personally, I would rather live in a world where blind people are
>>>>> accepted and respected not simply to the extent that they can
>>>>> look and act like sighted people, but on the grounds that they
>>>>> are human beings possessing dignity and as equally worthy of
>>>>> respect as sighted people. The message shouldn't be, "hey, we can
>>>>> follow your rules, so you should accept us". Instead, the message
>>>>> should be, "we, like you, have many talents and weaknesses, feel
>>>>> pleasure and pain, reach our full potential through the formation
>>>>> of deep and meaningful relationships with other human beings, and
>>>>> your failure to treat us with respect and as equals is unfair,
>>>>> discriminatory, and immoral", to borrow from Mr. Lewis.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, I think this goes well beyond blind people fitting
>>>>> into sighted society. We are constantly policing one another's
>>>>> behaviour. Probably one of the more obvious examples of this has
>>>>> to do with gender. There are hundreds if not thousands of mostly
>>>>> unspoken rules about what makes a man a man and how real men
>>>>> ought to behave, and there are twice as many concerning women.
>>>>> These rules are enforced in subtle but effective ways, and the
>>>>> result is often a great deal of suffering for anyone who cannot,
>>>>> or chooses not to, conform. These gender rules are just as
>>>>> arbitrary as those around sighted/blind behaviour, and the effort
>>>>> similarly should be to relax and remove such rules, not to more
>>>>> explicitly and fervently teach boys and girls the so called right
>>>>> way to act.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is of course easier said than done, and failing to conform
>>>>> does unfortunately often result in suffering, such as missed
>>>>> social, volunteer, and employment opportunities. So I don't judge
>>>>> or condemn anyone who makes a serious effort to learn the
>>>>> unwritten rules of sighted society, just as I don't judge someone
>>>>> who wants to spend all of his or her time reading medical
>>>>> journals and desperately praying for a cure. It's hard being
>>>>> blind in the particular society in which we live, and conforming
>>>>> can make things a little bit easier. But I still think we should
>>>>> work more on changing attitudes and less on teaching blind people
>>>>> how to look and act like sighted people.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Marc
>>>>> On 2012-09-14, at 3:04 PM, Chris Nusbaum
>>>>> <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Brandon and all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm taking the liberty here to change the subject of this
>>>>> thread, as if we're going to discuss the topic which Brandon has
>>>>> brought up in his post, I think it would prevent confusion if we
>>>>> changed the subject to reflect the actual topic of Brandon's
>>>>> message.
>>>>>
>>>>> Brandon, your idea about the NFB conducting some kind of
>>>>> instructional seminar or workshop on social norms and how we can
>>>>> "fit in" with the sighted public is a great one! I think you
>>>>> should talk with the NFB leadership about this! I believe NOPBC
>>>>> (the parents division) has touched on this topic in their
>>>>> seminars at conventions. One of the topics at the parents
>>>>> seminar at the Maryland state convention is almost always social
>>>>> skills, especially what sighted society has deemed socially
>>>>> acceptable and how we as blind people can fit in at social
>>>>> gatherings, conforming as best we can to the "norms" of society.
>>>>> I believe this is arguably more important for blind students, as
>>>>> we are often in social gatherings (or want to be in them) at our
>>>>> schools, with our friends, or in our communities. Therefore, it
>>>>> is important that we know the unwritten rules which our sighted
>>>>> society has made. If we don't know them and follow them, what
>>>>> does that say about us as blind people? It says we are weird,
>>>>> different, abnormal, incompetent, dependent, etc. These are the
>>>>> very adjectives we in the Federation have been working to cut out
>>>>> from the vocabulary of the public when in the context of
>>>>> blindness and blind people. In other words, these are the very
>>>>> things we don't want sighted people thinking about us. If this
>>>>> is how sighted people perceive us, then it puts our ability to
>>>>> get a job, volunteer in our community, and become first-class
>>>>> citizens at risk. So, I think this would be a great thing for
>>>>> the NFB to do, and one which I'm kind of surprised we're not
>>>>> doing already. Also, since this is an important topic for blind
>>>>> students, perhaps "social skills and norms" could be the topic of
>>>>> a future NABS membership call.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Brandon Keith Biggs" <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:15:16 -0700
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> We aren't promoting sex among students, we are promoting safe
>>>>> sex. There is
>>>>> a huge difference. If the student division is the only one with
>>>>> some
>>>>> practical sense about sexual activities, I'm a little scared...
>>>>> :)
>>>>> I do agree though, sex, dating and excepted socializing among a
>>>>> sighted
>>>>> community is a very big topic that is often times ignored by the
>>>>> blind
>>>>> community.
>>>>> I have been told by sighted TVIs that many blind folks (youth or
>>>>> not) have
>>>>> some very strange mannerisms and beliefs that are totally
>>>>> against the grain
>>>>> of sighted society. My mom in particular, who is a TVI, has
>>>>> suggested that
>>>>> the NFB should really give some instruction on how the sighted
>>>>> world thinks.
>>>>> Otherwise what will happen (and what has happened) is the world
>>>>> looks at a
>>>>> gathering of blind people and cringes because they are so weird.
>>>>> or a
>>>>> sighted girl sees a blind guy and thinks she wants to talk to
>>>>> him and when
>>>>> she is about to sit down and say hi, the guy does something
>>>>> really weird and
>>>>> she turns around and walks a mile away.
>>>>> This is a little different than the deal with the condoms, but
>>>>> both sexual
>>>>> health and social issues are topics that are very much in need
>>>>> of attention
>>>>> among blind individuals, and students in particular.
>>>>> I feel strongly that having some active workshops on this that
>>>>> aren't meant
>>>>> to be uncomfortable, but still deal with the taboo problems
>>>>> would greatly
>>>>> improve convention.
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>
>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman
>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:18 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>> I have joked in the past about how NABS should sell Brailled
>>>>> Whozit
>>>>> condoms at convention! Kidding aside, though, there are probably
>>>>> some
>>>>> NFB leaders with more conservative leanings, who might feel that
>>>>> NABS
>>>>> selling condoms at convention would be promoting sexual activity
>>>>> among
>>>>> young or unmarried blind students. I don't agree with that
>>>>> position,
>>>>> but some people do and since anything NABS does is, by
>>>>> extension, an
>>>>> NFB-sanctioned event, we would need to balance the benefits of
>>>>> providing condoms against possibly upsetting the NFB leadership
>>>>> or
>>>>> bringing on an unwanted political debate.
>>>>> I would be more likely to support a NABS breakout session, at
>>>>> Washington Seminar or elsewhere, about sexuality in general, and
>>>>> perhaps include an opportunity to try putting a condom on the
>>>>> proverbial banana or some such. When I was 15, I went to a
>>>>> diversity
>>>>> camp (for sighted teens) and there was a sexuality workshop
>>>>> available
>>>>> as one of several choices. They passed around condoms and in
>>>>> fact,
>>>>> this was the first time I actually felt one. A general workshop
>>>>> about
>>>>> sex, dating and etiquette, etc. might be worth having.
>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9/10/12, Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> This would be an awesome idea! Not only because many people have
>>>>> never
>>>>> seen
>>>>>
>>>>> a condom, so they could finger the packages with labels without
>>>>> having to
>>>>> be
>>>>>
>>>>> embarrassed, but when I was at the hotel I didn't run into any
>>>>> condoms in
>>>>> the store. Granted I wasn't looking for them, but I was
>>>>> browsing...
>>>>> Condoms,
>>>>>
>>>>> lube and Dental Dams, all labeled in Braille! We would also
>>>>> probably need
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>> provide guides for people on how to find the right way to put on
>>>>> a condom
>>>>> or
>>>>>
>>>>> use a dental dam.
>>>>> Another thing I didn't see at the NABS table is hot serial.
>>>>> The
>>>>> packing
>>>>> guide in the nabs newsletter said to pack a ton of things and I
>>>>> for one
>>>>> don't keep hot serial in the house and I don't shop at places
>>>>> that sell
>>>>> hot
>>>>>
>>>>> serial, so wasn't able to grab a box. But I would have loved to
>>>>> buy a box
>>>>> for even $10 or more, the breakfasts there were $10 alone...
>>>>> (Then of
>>>>> course
>>>>>
>>>>> we could sell bole and spoon packs for the poor folks who didn't
>>>>> bring
>>>>> their
>>>>>
>>>>> own utensil's).
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Anmol Bhatia
>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:28 AM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You would be a good place to sell and buy condoms? At the NFB
>>>>> convention...
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps Nabs should sell condoms at the NABS table. We can even
>>>>> braille
>>>>> them
>>>>>
>>>>> so the perso can know what kind of condoms they have. lol
>>>>>
>>>>> Anmol
>>>>>
>>>>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad.
>>>>> Perhaps
>>>>> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague,
>>>>> like a breeze
>>>>> among flowers.
>>>>> Hellen Keller
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Sun, 9/9/12, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>, "National Association of Blind Students
>>>>> mailing
>>>>> list"
>>>>>
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Date: Sunday, September 9, 2012, 10:54 PM
>>>>> Hi, Brandon,
>>>>>
>>>>> I went into a place in Denver to buy a dildo yes, on
>>>>> the bigger, ribbed side to use in the old fashioned bath tub
>>>>> I had at the time, to get myself off with the faucet.
>>>>> Traditionally, I need something in my ass, to cum. If I
>>>>> remember, the folks in their wer very cool, look at the
>>>>> blind girl going to by herself a dildo! Don't worry! If
>>>>> you're relaxed, and cool about what you're doing so will be
>>>>> the bookstore, personnel. Let us know how goes it,
>>>>> okay? At 04:52 PM 9/8/2012, SA Mobile wrote:
>>>>> Those are the best places to get stuff as the staff are
>>>>> professional and are trained to make customers feel at ease.
>>>>> Just make sure the shop is of good repute.
>>>>>
>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>> Jedi
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On 08/09/2012, at 12:36 PM, "Brandon Keith Biggs"
>>>>> <brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> Thank goodness my father was a nurse and when I
>>>>> turned 18, he said addio to being in with me at the doctor.
>>>>> I do find it amusing though that some doctors are actually
>>>>> really uncomfortable touching me because I'm blind... That
>>>>> only happened after my dad started leaving the room.
>>>>> Thank you Arielle for those websites. I don't feel
>>>>> that condoms are something I want to buy from a website I've
>>>>> never heard of before unless someone I know has gotten or
>>>>> knows that site is trust worthy.
>>>>> I was told that flavored condoms were only to be
>>>>> used in oral intercourse. The same is not for lube I
>>>>> presume?
>>>>> Also, has anyone ever gone into a sex store? How
>>>>> was it as a blind shopper? Even from sighted people I hear
>>>>> the experience is often not pleasant.
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Arielle
>>>>> Silverman
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2012 10:00 AM
>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] condoms and Sexual Health
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>> I know the recent discussions about sex and dating
>>>>> are kind of in a
>>>>> gray area as to whether or not they're on-topic
>>>>> for this list, since
>>>>> most of the issues Koby brought up are not really
>>>>> unique to blindness.
>>>>> So if the moderators or Dave feel this is getting
>>>>> too far afield, I
>>>>> will happily respect your judgment. However, I
>>>>> also think that
>>>>> Brandon's question about where to get condoms is a
>>>>> legitimate one and
>>>>> that there might be other blind people out here,
>>>>> including teenagers,
>>>>> who have similar concerns about how to get
>>>>> condoms, birth control or
>>>>> sexual health information without a lot of
>>>>> awkwardness or
>>>>> embarrassment. It can be particularly difficult if
>>>>> you have to depend
>>>>> on someone else (especially parents) for
>>>>> transportation which can make
>>>>> going to a clinic or drugstore difficult.
>>>>> There are a few places to buy condoms online,
>>>>> including
>>>>> www.condomania.com
>>>>> www.undercovercondoms.com
>>>>> and
>>>>> www.condomdepot.com
>>>>> Believe it or not, they also have some condom
>>>>> choices at
>>>>> www.amazon.com
>>>>> If you go to your health center on campus for any
>>>>> reason, it shouldn't
>>>>> be a problem to ask a doctor or nurse there
>>>>> about condoms.
>>>>> I cannot answer the questions about when to begin
>>>>> having sex with a
>>>>> partner because that is a highly individual
>>>>> decision. However, I feel
>>>>> it important that anyone who is considering having
>>>>> sex for the first
>>>>> time ensure you understand what all of your
>>>>> options are for preventing
>>>>> pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases, the
>>>>> advantages and
>>>>> disadvantages of each option, and the proper way
>>>>> to use condoms and
>>>>> birth control. There are a couple different
>>>>> websites with this kind
>>>>> of information:
>>>>> www.plannedparenthood.org
>>>>> (includes live chat with a sexual health educator)
>>>>> or
>>>>> www.scarleteen.com
>>>>> This issue is particularly close to my heart at
>>>>> the moment because my
>>>>> boyfriend's sister just had an unintended
>>>>> pregnancy at a very
>>>>> inopportune time (while still in college, with a
>>>>> guy she had only
>>>>> known for a few months) and was apparently taking
>>>>> birth control pills,
>>>>> but had not been taking them consistently. While I
>>>>> don't believe that
>>>>> sex should be feared, it is something that
>>>>> takes some responsibility,
>>>>> planning and foresight to ensure it is enjoyable
>>>>> while minimizing the
>>>>> risks. Also, while I won't go into details here,
>>>>> there are other ways
>>>>> to be physically intimate with someone that are
>>>>> less risky, which
>>>>> these online forums will talk about.
>>>>> I also want to bring up an issue that is
>>>>> somewhat relevant to sexual
>>>>> health, which I experienced and I think that some
>>>>> of you might also be
>>>>> struggling with. This is the issue of having your
>>>>> parents drive you to
>>>>> doctors' appointments and then having them want to
>>>>> sit in or even
>>>>> participate in your appointments. Since I attended
>>>>> college in my home
>>>>> city, my mother always wanted to drive me to my
>>>>> doctors' appointments
>>>>> and would then want to come in and chat with the
>>>>> doctor while he/she
>>>>> was examining me. This was partly because my
>>>>> parents and I saw many of
>>>>> the same doctors and she often thought it was a
>>>>> good opportunity to
>>>>> ask the doctor a quick question about her own
>>>>> health while she was
>>>>> there, or because she was curious to see what the
>>>>> doctor recommended
>>>>> to me about a particular issue. I eventually
>>>>> realized that while it
>>>>> wasn't ill-intentioned, it was a violation of my
>>>>> privacy as an adult
>>>>> patient and I asked her to wait in the waiting
>>>>> room while I was seeing
>>>>> the doctor. I didn't actually take this stand
>>>>> until I was 21 and in
>>>>> hindsight I wish I had done it much earlier.
>>>>> By the time you are 18,
>>>>> unless you have a serious cognitive disability,
>>>>> you have a right to
>>>>> privacy of your medical information and it is
>>>>> important to establish a
>>>>> good doctor-patient relationship without a third
>>>>> person interfering.
>>>>> This is especially true when it comes to sexual
>>>>> health and by the time
>>>>> you are 18 or even 16, you will want to start
>>>>> discussing your sexual
>>>>> activities or questions with your doctors without
>>>>> your parents being
>>>>> around. You might also want to consider getting a
>>>>> driver or even
>>>>> taking the bus to medical appointments to avoid
>>>>> this problem.
>>>>> On a related note, by the time you are in high
>>>>> school, you should know
>>>>> the names of all medications you take on a
>>>>> regular basis and any
>>>>> chronic medical conditions you may have. If you
>>>>> ever have to go to the
>>>>> emergency room, this kind of information may
>>>>> be requested of you.
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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