[nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets

David Andrews dandrews at visi.com
Fri Apr 19 02:12:20 UTC 2013 

It varies from agency to agency, in MN we sign equipment over to most 
customers, at the time they receive the equipment.  This could be a 
long time before we close their case, like when they start 
college.  We try to tread adults like adults.

Dave

At 10:03 PM 4/16/2013, you wrote:
>I don't have a VR case anymore, but I think I heard that they do close
>your case after 90 days of employment but they can sign equipment over
>to you at that time.
>Arielle
>
>On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Justin,
> >
> > Did you look that up?  I'm just curious to know if that's a national
> > thing, and if so would that mean everything they bought you goes back
> > to them or would they be able to sign stuff over to you as Suzanne
> > suggested?
> > I'm asking because my impression of it was once your case is closed
> > they take everything back, because technically if you're gainfully
> > employed you have the capability of saving up and buying your own
> > equipment.  It would kind of suck if you needed something, like a
> > laptop, for your job and wouldn't be able to get a new one within that
> > 90 day period to replace it.  If you don't know all that it's fine
> > though, just thought I'd try to see what you found out.
> >
> > On 4/15/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> 90 days after employment and your case is closed.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti
> >> Shelton
> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:15 PM
> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
> >>
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> That is something I could see happening, but as Arielle said I don't
> >> think if given the choice I would go for it.  I'm not sure about what
> >> other state agencies do, but in Ohio you have to sign loan agreements
> >> for everything they get you so you know that it's their property.
> >> They don't really buy it for you, they buy it so you can use it and
> >> give it back once your case is closed, even if it might take you years
> >> to save up to buy a decent laptop or a notetaker of your own with a
> >> starting salary of 40,00 or less.  I wouldn't like for something to
> >> happen in the state government and have them take my car away, or say,
> >> "Well you got a job now... we would have closed your case but since
> >> you have this car from us you have to continue to keep all the
> >> requirements even though you've already met your employment goals."
> >> It just seems like it would be messy to me if it happened that way.
> >>
> >> On 4/16/13, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> It would be interesting if vocational rehab started paying for Google
> >>> Cars just like they currently pay for expensive Braille Notes and
> >>> such. In a way that would be good, since having a car could increase
> >>> employment prospects, but it could also deepen the dependence many of
> >>> us feel on government agencies. "Pick a vocational goal that I think
> >>> you should have, and wait a few months for me to drag my feet on it,
> >>> or you won't get an autonomous car!" might be the stated or implied
> >>> directive of a VR counselor. We are already finding ourselves bending
> >>> over backwards to satisfy VR's bureaucratic requirements and counselor
> >>> idiosyncrasies in order to have technology or training funded.
> >>> Arielle
> >>>
> >>> On 4/16/13, Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> Hi all,
> >>>>
> >>>> I find myself agreeing with several points.
> >>>>
> >>>> First, by my posts about the costs I was trying to put it into
> >>>> perspective that for most of us, the car being so expensive might not
> >>>> be worth it until the price comes down simply because most working
> >>>> families have 2 cars because multiple people need to be in different
> >>>> places at the same time.  I agree with Kirt that even after this thing
> >>>> is out we'll probably have to wait a fairly long time till the price
> >>>> is reasonable.  Second, we're not sure yet just how autonymous this
> >>>> car is.  Even though it might drive itself most of the way, I could
> >>>> very well see it needing instruction to take detours if needed.  Say,
> >>>> for instance, that you've chartered your course for your car remotely
> >>>> and you just want it to drive itself to come pick you up somewhere.
> >>>> Somewhere along the way it gets low on gas and doesn't have anyone or
> >>>> anything to tell it to pause en route to find the nearest gas station.
> >>>>  And even then, who would be there to fill up the tank and tell the
> >>>> car to resume the route?  Just hypotheticals worth some consideration,
> >>>> since this whole thread is pretty hypothetical.  Also, even if a car
> >>>> dropped one spouse off and went to get the other it would be a lot of
> >>>> driving around.  Another hypothetical; lets say a blind couple lives
> >>>> in a house, with one office five miles to the north and another five
> >>>> miles to the south.  I realize these are very small measurements, but
> >>>> just for the sake of thinking about this we'll go with it.  One person
> >>>> needs to be to work by eight, so the car drives ten miles to the
> >>>> office and back.  Then it leaves again and drives five more miles to
> >>>> drop the other person off.  When the person who got to work by eight
> >>>> needs to leave, the car would drive another ten miles to get them and
> >>>> another five to get home, then another ten miles to pick up the other
> >>>> person and bring them home.  That's 40 miles in a day.  Now, say the
> >>>> couple each has their own cars, which each drive just ten miles a day
> >>>> going back and forth to work.  That's half the driving, half the gas,
> >>>> and although there are 2 cars on  the road instead of one, less
> >>>> emissions that are not healthy for the environment.  What I was saying
> >>>> was that in order for this to really work for most families the cars
> >>>> would have to be affordable enough so people could have two at once,
> >>>> otherwise the car would incurr other expenses on top of the already
> >>>> heightened cost and it wouldn't be worth it.
> >>>> I do agree with William too that this is not necessarily the top
> >>>> priority we have to deal with, but I don't necessarily see it as a
> >>>> negative thing.  I agree with Chris that it will probably help some
> >>>> people get jobs... I've mentioned that I'm in a line of work in which
> >>>> the ability for me to drive would be marketable.  I think both these
> >>>> statements are right, but Arielle's point of widening the gap between
> >>>> the employed and unemployed was really concerning to me too.  I could
> >>>> in some ways see how this might be a deterrent to employers, as in the
> >>>> following:  Employer: "Thank you for coming in today, I'll call you
> >>>> once the other interviews are finished.  One more question, can you
> >>>> drive one of those Google cars?  We could really use someone in our
> >>>> area across town."  Interviewee: "I can't afford one yet.  I'm hoping
> >>>> to save up for one though."  In this case, the employer's expectation
> >>>> of blind people being able to have the Google cars might weigh in the
> >>>> interviewee's favor, because he might have interviewed him with the
> >>>> intention of having him drive the google car to complete the tasks of
> >>>> the job.  I think there are a lot of complicated positives and
> >>>> negatives to consider.
> >>>>
> >>>> On 4/16/13, Peter Donahue <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Good morning Chris and everyone,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>     Absolutely! It will also open up jobs currently closed to us.
> >>>>> Should
> >>>>> you
> >>>>>
> >>>>> become a cab or a limousine driver who uses the technology the NFB
> >>>>> developed
> >>>>>
> >>>>> when we visit your community we'll be sure to request you as our limo
> >>>>> driver
> >>>>>
> >>>>> or will be sure to call you directly so we'll get you as our personal
> >>>>> cab
> >>>>> driver. We all ready do this here in San Antonio. There's a cab driver
> >>>>> we
> >>>>> use regularly. We have his cell phone number and call him directly
> >>>>> whenever
> >>>>>
> >>>>> we need transportation.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Peter Donahue
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "christopher nusbaum" <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com>
> >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> >>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 6:01 AM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But do you think our ability to drive may increase our employment
> >>>>> rate?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Chris Nusbaum
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Apr 16, 2013, at 1:40 AM, wmodnl wmodnl <wmodnl at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Just my own two sense:
> >>>>>> I do not care, if the automated car offers us hot coffee! That or a
> >>>>>> car
> >>>>>> with extra clothes will not be parked with my name on it.
> >>>>>> I am not out to shoot-down someones dream.  I am all for innovation;
> >>>>>> however, we need to fix our problems within our society a bit more.
> >>>>>> If
> >>>>>> blind people overall had more stability with a greater respect as
> >>>>>> whole
> >>>>>> individuals, employed at a 80% rate, then I would advocate us as
> >>>>>> drivers.
> >>>>>> I could just here the advertizement:
> >>>>>> Were you in a accident, maybe with a blind person while driving, call
> >>>>>> (800)lawyers.  Sorry for being cynical, I think time and resources
> >>>>>> need
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> be properly prioritized.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Apr 15, 2013, at 5:08 PM, "Sophie Trist"
> >>>>>> <sweetpeareader at gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Joshua, the NFB car requires intricate vests and lots of other
> >>>>>>> complex
> >>>>>>> equipment. The google car offers us the option of driving an
> >>>>>>> autonomous
> >>>>>>> vehicle without all the excess gear. Blind people have enough
> >>>>>>> baggage
> >>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> is. We don't need special driving clothes.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>> From: Joshua Lester <JLester8462 at pccua.edu
> >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:49:18 +0000
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> It was on the runway at Daytona, two years ago.
> >>>>>>> The car should be out by 2016.
> >>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua
> >>>>>>> ________________________________________
> >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Sophie Trist
> >>>>>>> [sweetpeareader at gmail.com]
> >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:44 AM
> >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Joshua, I guess I can't talk much about this since I never
> >>>>>>> actually saw the NFB car in action, but from what I've heard,
> >>>>>>> that autonomous vehicle was a bit disappointing. Besides, I've
> >>>>>>> only heard about it one time, at convention a few years ago.
> >>>>>>> Since then, nothing has been heard of the NFB car--it's just
> >>>>>>> disappeared. Right now, the google car is looking a lot more
> >>>>>>> promising. I support the NFB to my core, but if there's another
> >>>>>>> product that serves better than an NFB product (like a Revolution
> >>>>>>> cane, for example) I won't hesitate to get it. Also, I have one
> >>>>>>> question about the google cars. Do they run on gas or
> >>>>>>> electricity?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>> From: Joshua Lester <JLester8462 at pccua.edu
> >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:25:35 +0000
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Wow, Peter!
> >>>>>>> Like minds huh?
> >>>>>>> I just posted this same link on here a few minutes ago!
> >>>>>>> Thanks, Joshua
> >>>>>>> ________________________________________
> >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Peter
> >>>>>>> Donahue [pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com]
> >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 5:23 PM
> >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Good afternoon one more time everyone,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>  Better yet visit http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>  There's lots of information about our efforts to develop this
> >>>>>>> technology
> >>>>>>> along with videos showing a blind person driving the car on the
> >>>>>>> track at
> >>>>>>> Daytona Beach. The technology and the possibilities have all
> >>>>>>> ready been
> >>>>>>> demonstrated. I also understand that several blind individuals
> >>>>>>> have driven
> >>>>>>> the car on the streets of Baltimore with success.We all need to
> >>>>>>> unite and
> >>>>>>> work with whomever will partner with us be it Google or someone
> >>>>>>> else to
> >>>>>>> insure that any self-driving vehicle that is developed is
> >>>>>>> controllable by a
> >>>>>>> blind person and that our right to operate such vehicles is
> >>>>>>> protected. We
> >>>>>>> don't need the very people who stand to benefit from the freedom
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> empowerment such a vehicle could give us undermining such a noble
> >>>>>>> initiative.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Peter Donahue
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>> From: "Chris Nusbaum" <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com
> >>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> >>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 2:36 PM
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Amen, Patrick!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Chris Nusbaum, Co-Chair
> >>>>>>> Public Relations Committee
> >>>>>>> Maryland Association of Blind Students
> >>>>>>> Phone: (443) 547-2409
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
> >>>>>>> Patrick Molloy
> >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 3:27 PM
> >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm sorry Ashley, but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree
> >>>>>>> with you.
> >>>>>>> When NTSB executives are saying that autonomous cars are the way
> >>>>>>> to go,
> >>>>>>> don't you think they deserve some credence? I honestly lost faith
> >>>>>>> in the NFB
> >>>>>>> car. Sure it was "made for blind people," but you barely ever saw
> >>>>>>> the thing!
> >>>>>>> If you're going to make a car for the blind, don't hide it away
> >>>>>>> from the
> >>>>>>> public and then give no explanation when it essentially
> >>>>>>> disappears. I'm not
> >>>>>>> saying that the Google car would be perfect. I'm not fooling
> >>>>>>> myself with
> >>>>>>> that idea. But, I think that the technology is really impressive
> >>>>>>> and, with
> >>>>>>> some modifications, it will be great for blind people. But hey!
> >>>>>>> If you want
> >>>>>>> to always wait around for a driver, or a bus, or paratransit,
> >>>>>>> more power to
> >>>>>>> you. It just seems like this all runs counter to the philosophy
> >>>>>>> that many
> >>>>>>> people within the NFB preach daily. As for your arguments as to
> >>>>>>> why blind
> >>>>>>> people shouldn't drive, I think if you read the articles about
> >>>>>>> the potential
> >>>>>>> of autonomous cars, you'll find most if not all of your fears
> >>>>>>> more or less
> >>>>>>> assuaged. Just because something SEEMS difficult is no reason for
> >>>>>>> us blind
> >>>>>>> people to avoid it like the plague. That would be ridiculous! If
> >>>>>>> I decide
> >>>>>>> not to get this car, it would only be after I'd tried it out and
> >>>>>>> found it
> >>>>>>> not to my liking. Since the NFB car is more or less dead, I feel
> >>>>>>> that we as
> >>>>>>> blind people have a responsibility to get behind the Google car
> >>>>>>> in one way
> >>>>>>> or another.
> >>>>>>> Isn't that what the NFB always says? That they're there for blind
> >>>>>>> people
> >>>>>>> when we need something? Well, we need to get around and we're
> >>>>>>> tired of
> >>>>>>> waiting like kids for our parents to pick us up from soccer
> >>>>>>> practice! If
> >>>>>>> we're going to be independent, successful individuals, then we
> >>>>>>> should have
> >>>>>>> the right to get around just like our sighted colleagues.
> >>>>>>> Separate is not
> >>>>>>> equal in this case. You may never drive this thing, and you may
> >>>>>>> think it
> >>>>>>> ridiculous, but I highly encourage people like yourself and Carly
> >>>>>>> to at
> >>>>>>> least consider the point of view of those of us who want to drive
> >>>>>>> like our
> >>>>>>> brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. You may think us
> >>>>>>> self-serving,
> >>>>>>> but doesn't that make sighted people self-serving? I mean, they
> >>>>>>> can take a
> >>>>>>> bus too! The issue here is choice. We shouldn't HAVE to take a
> >>>>>>> bus if we
> >>>>>>> don't want to wait 2 hours. Now, if it's a nice day and you've
> >>>>>>> got time to
> >>>>>>> kill, hey! Spend 5 hours going to the doctor! But we should have
> >>>>>>> the same
> >>>>>>> freedom that all sighted people have. With that freedom will come
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> realization that blind people can do the same things as sighted
> >>>>>>> people.
> >>>>>>> Patrick
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 4/14/13, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>> Hi all,
> >>>>>>> I haven't read all this thread much. But from what I read, it
> >>>>>>> seems
> >>>>>>> like you
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> all believe the car would provide more transit options and you'd
> >>>>>>> buy
> >>>>>>> one if
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> given a choice.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I know the problems in the bus system; I've seen them and ridden
> >>>>>>> paratransit
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> and felt its impact of unreliability and lateness.
> >>>>>>> That said, I think other methods of travel are more efficient
> >>>>>>> and safe.
> >>>>>>> Things like cabs, car pools, getting rides with friends when you
> >>>>>>> want
> >>>>>>> to hang out, and hiring a driver would be better.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I do not support blind people driving because we cannot see to
> >>>>>>> override the
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> car.
> >>>>>>> I have to agree with the individual that said that having a car
> >>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>> self serving. We are putting other lives at risk.
> >>>>>>> We face many obstacles on the rode like other cars wipping in
> >>>>>>> front of
> >>>>>>> us when its not their turn; cars inching along not going the
> >>>>>>> speed
> >>>>>>> limit and you got to move around them, waiting for pedestrians
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>> walk, rode rage, and
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> drunk drivers.
> >>>>>>> Without vision, we cannot! intervene the computerized car to
> >>>>>>> override
> >>>>>>> it when obstacles arise.
> >>>>>>> I cannot tell you how many times my parents slammed on the
> >>>>>>> brakes due
> >>>>>>> to some driver wipping out in front of them, drivers who
> >>>>>>> unexpectedly
> >>>>>>> turn without turning on their turn signal like their supposed
> >>>>>>> to,
> >>>>>>> pedestrians who
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> are still walking across the street when the orange don't walk
> >>>>>>> signal
> >>>>>>> is on
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> thus making cars wait, having to swerve around bicyclists, and
> >>>>>>> distracted drivers on cell phones.
> >>>>>>> All these obstacles create hazards which a human driver with
> >>>>>>> eyes
> >>>>>>> needs to see and make a quick judgement and use reflexes to act
> >>>>>>> upon
> >>>>>>> unexpected hazards.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So, yeah, when you all can afford a new google car, go right
> >>>>>>> ahead and
> >>>>>>> you never know who might be hurt if you even get a license. I
> >>>>>>> just
> >>>>>>> don't want to
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> be on the road with you.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I think the nfb car sounded safer and it was built for blind
> >>>>>>> people,
> >>>>>>> but we
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> abandoned that project, probably cause of money.
> >>>>>>> Ashley
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton
> >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:08 PM
> >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google car takes to the streets
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I don't see it as self-serving either... in my experience with
> >>>>>>> buses I
> >>>>>>> have to agree with Sophie here.  Plus, some parts of town that I
> >>>>>>> need
> >>>>>>> to go either aren't served by buses, or take a really long time
> >>>>>>> to get
> >>>>>>> to which sometimes involves going in the opposite way of the
> >>>>>>> destination for a while and then circling back because of
> >>>>>>> Dayton's bus
> >>>>>>> system.  (It's organized by buses going north-south and
> >>>>>>> east-west, but
> >>>>>>> sometimes when you're at a stop the time of the bus won't tell
> >>>>>>> you if
> >>>>>>> the bus is going north or south, or east or west so you have to
> >>>>>>> roll
> >>>>>>> with it.  I'd much rather just get into a car and drive than
> >>>>>>> boomerang
> >>>>>>> around the city just to get to one place, and then do it again
> >>>>>>> returning to school.  And because of this, and the fact that it
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> bus system isn't exactly equivalent to a car, I don't consider
> >>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>> self-serving either.  I have no problem in supporting it and
> >>>>>>> other
> >>>>>>> programs of public transit for people who can't drive a car,
> >>>>>>> which
> >>>>>>> more often are people who are low income, have a suspended
> >>>>>>> license, or
> >>>>>>> who are inner-city, or elderly than blind, but if I and other
> >>>>>>> blind
> >>>>>>> people can afford a car and want one I don't see anything
> >>>>>>> self-serving
> >>>>>>> in that, it's just doing what is most efficient.  I actually
> >>>>>>> think not
> >>>>>>> taking advantage of this opportunity on the basis that the less
> >>>>>>> than
> >>>>>>> efficient public transit systems work fine and that other people
> >>>>>>> can
> >>>>>>> use the money or whatever that would go into buying this car
> >>>>>>> would be
> >>>>>>> like saying you'd pass up going to college even though you could
> >>>>>>> because other people can be served by your tuition money, and
> >>>>>>> the high
> >>>>>>> school diploma would serve you just fine.  It's more efficient,
> >>>>>>> so why
> >>>>>>> not do it?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Sophie, I too see it more as an investment in independence.  :)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 4/14/13, Robert William Kingett <kingettr at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>> Im buying this damn car the first chance I get. I'd rather be
> >>>>>>> self
> >>>>>>> serving and frivolous and drive to some place within 20 minutes
> >>>>>>> instead of sitting on the bus for three hours, or more,
> >>>>>>> depending on
> >>>>>>> if the driver didn't call my stop and I'd be riding extra long.
> >>>>>>> Here
> >>>>>>> in chicagothat isn't a problem but I used to live in Tallahassee
> >>>>>>> FL
> >>>>>>> where there was no automated system to tell you where you were.
> >>>>>>> So
> >>>>>>> yes, I'd much rather be self serving and save up. Besides, as I
> >>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>> said before in a previous message, this technology is driving
> >>>>>>> along
> >>>>>>> the streets of Nevada. I'm so excited that I'm even grinning and
> >>>>>>> daydreaming about driving along side of a bus, and happy that
> >>>>>>> I'm
> >>>>>>> frivolous enough to pay for a self serving device that will
> >>>>>>> allowfor
> >>>>>>> me to get to the office quicker, or to an interview on time,
> >>>>>>> thus
> >>>>>>> allowing me to have greater chances to pay my taxes so you other
> >>>>>>> non
> >>>>>>> self serving blind people can take the bus. I think it's a neat
> >>>>>>> little circle of irony, don't you think? LOL!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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> >>>>>>> info for
> >>>>>>> nabs-l:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine
> >>>>>>> t104
> >>>>>>> %40gmail.com
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Kaiti
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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> >>>>>>> 0eart
> >>>>>>> hlink.net
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
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> >>>>>>>
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> > --
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