[nabs-l] the test accomodations

Tue Apr 30 06:52:39 UTC 2013

Hey! Kirt, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I cant't read what 
you send me as a reply with JAWS. For some reason JAWS is not reading your 
message. Only says send from my Iphone. Probably you send me a picture of 
the message instead. Hope you get this. Thanks and God bless!! :)

-----Original Message----- 
From: Kirt
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 2:35 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 30, 2013, at 12:12 AM, Helga Schreiber <helga.schreiber at hotmail.com> 
wrote:

> Hey! Kirt, this is Helga. I'm sorry for asking this dumb question. What do 
> you mean when you say use a TA as a test reader? I'm just curious what the 
> word TA mean? I actually never heard of the word abrebiation. Also, I just 
> would like to ask you, Do you know where can I get a Dux Bury program and 
> a Braille printer that is compatibel with the BrailleNote apex for a cheap 
> price? The Reason I'm asking is because I like to read Braille because is 
> my prefer way of reading especially when I'm reading stories that are hard 
> to understand the wording. I'm actually doing an English major where I 
> need to take Literature classes that involve a lot of reading. Actually, 
> this semester I took American Literature before 1865, and it was very 
> challenging for me because the only accessable format of the Book  that 
> DSS provided me was PDF format, and and I got a audio cd from Learning 
> Ally. It was helpful, but not enough to understand the stories since my 
> first Language is not English, even though I speak it, I'm still working 
> on my comprehension of words. I also talked to my DBS counceler about this 
> and she told me that she would not buy me the Braille printer because is 
> very expensive. I really Think a Braille paper copy of a reading will 
> really help me a lot since I'm thinking in taking American Literature 
> after 1865 in the Fall semester. Thanks for listening to me. I really 
> appreciate it. God bless! :)
> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:31 AM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations
>
> In my experience, it's totally depended on the professor.  Some have
> offered to read me the test in their offices, most have recommended I
> use a TA as a test reader (I know that's not an option for you), some
> have preferred to let DSS handle all those logistics even though it's
> often meant they get my exam significantly later than the other
> students'.  Since this is entirely the professor's decision, I've
> always made an effort to meet my professors as soon as I practically
> could and keep in constant touch throughout the semester.  Usually,
> though not always, this has worked well for me.
>
> On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> One more thing.
>> I've beaten this to death probably. While I would like the idea of doing 
>> it
>> in the professor's office with a reader or my notetaker,
>> this would be challenging. The professor leaves campus after her finals. 
>> She
>> would have to stay after finals to sit and supervise me.
>> I know because she told me after administering the final, she would go to
>> the testing center to pick my final up.
>>
>> That said, maybe we can work something fair out. Again, I'm glad to hear
>> professors work with you all directly for these situations.
>> Its been my experience that they assume I'm going to the testing center
>> except for small quizzes.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ashley Bramlett
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:15 AM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations
>>
>> Hello Kirt,
>> Thanks. I am not dismissing these ideas. Please understand the bind I'm 
>> in.
>> What happened was the professor told me to take it in the testing center.
>> She told me to request a scribe and reader
>> I did so. The dss counselor told me she would not find a reader who could
>> meet my needs; that readers were based on availability. I'm now concerned
>> that they cannot read the exam and this will hinder my grade.
>> I can certainly ask if the reader can read it in her office. Yes, come to
>> think of it. my counselor never demanded I take it in the testing center,
>> but implied that was the way it was done for exams.
>>
>> I do like your idea of having the reader in the professor's office so in
>> case we run into problems, she can jump in.
>> Other staff and a TA are not options; it’s a community college; she is 
>> the
>> only full time professor in that department.
>>
>> I'll see what I can work out with the school, if anything.
>> Ashley
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Kirt Manwaring
>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 9:32 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations
>>
>> Ashley,
>>  I think you'll understand by now that I don't mean to be rude or
>> snobbish; subtlety just isn't my thing.  That being said, I hope
>> you'll take my bluntness for what it is; it's just my way of
>> expressing myself, and I don't mean you any personal insult by it.
>>  Even so, I think I've seen three or four people, at least, who have
>> already answered the question you just asked me, multiple times.  Even
>> though this has been said over and over again already, professors are
>> generally flexible and willing to work with us...at least that's been
>> my experience, thus far.  You could see if this professors' department
>> has a spare office aid, secretary, receptionist...even departments
>> without teaching assistants usually have some sort of auxiliary staff
>> on hand and, from my experience, some of these people can be very
>> helpful, especially if your professor is asking them.  Also, you could
>> maybe work out a compromise position between doing everything with DSS
>> and doing it all with your professor directly.  What I mean is that
>> you could see if the professor would let you take the test during her
>> office hours and in her office, with a reader provided by DSS.  That
>> way, the professor would be there to help with any pronunciation
>> issues, but she would still be free to do whatever other work she
>> needed to.
>>  Honestly, when I approach my professors about tests, I usually say
>> something like "I'm more than willing to do this with DSS but if you'd
>> prefer to work directly with me I usually like that better."
>> Oftentimes, I've had professors volunteer themselves as
>> readers/scribes, especially for simple and straightforward tests;
>> also, like I said, even without TAs your professor might have someone
>> who could help.  You'll never know if you don't ask.
>>
>> On 4/29/13, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I was a teaching assistant for a large introductory psychology course
>>> a few years ago, and was on the other side of the accommodations issue
>>> getting disability letters from students who needed extended time or a
>>> distraction-free environment for testing. I would send these letters
>>> to the instructor who supervised me and he always said he hated
>>> working with disability services and much preferred to work out the
>>> testing "in-house" between him/me and the student. So I would have
>>> students take exams in my office instead of using the testing center
>>> because it was less hassle for the instructor that way. If instructors
>>> have to go through disability services, they have to prepare their
>>> tests early and they also have to often grade the test after everyone
>>> else's because they don't get it from disability services until later.
>>> I agree that a Braille Note could be a really good compromise between
>>> using a Braille test and using a reader. The prof could give you a
>>> text file, you could fill it out on your Braille Note and then turn it
>>> back in at the same time as all other students. As others have stated,
>>> professors may or may not allow this but the only way to find out is
>>> to ask. I used my Braille Note for testing for four semesters and I
>>> think in that time only one professor insisted I use DSS instead of
>>> using my Braille Note.
>>>
>>> Arielle
>>>
>>> On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> Kirt,
>>>> okay; then how do you take the exam? with your own laptop? If not, how 
>>>> do
>>>> you read the exam?
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Kirt
>>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 6:22 PM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations
>>>>
>>>> Ashley,
>>>> It might be worth checking if your professor will let you take the test
>>>> outside of the testing center. If your relationship with her is as good
>>>> as
>>>> you say it is, what would be the harm in asking, at the very least?
>>>> Incidentally, many of my professors have recommended that I take their
>>>> test
>>>>
>>>> outside of the testing center, even if that's where the rest of the 
>>>> class
>>>> takes it.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:57 PM, "Lillie Pennington"
>>>> <lilliepennington at fuse.net>
>>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ashley,
>>>>> Are you going to be taking classes after this semester? You may want 
>>>>> to
>>>>> be
>>>>> thinking in the long term of how your going to be fixing these types 
>>>>> of
>>>>> problems. For example, if your taking another class like this where 
>>>>> you
>>>>> may
>>>>> want a Braille copy, how do you plan to get it? Would you be willing 
>>>>> to
>>>>> pay
>>>>> with your own money for a Braille test? You could look into getting 
>>>>> your
>>>>> tests transcribed somehow. You could talk to your future professors
>>>>> about
>>>>> this (you'd probably have to make arrangements for them to somehow 
>>>>> send
>>>>> the
>>>>> test off to make sure that you couldn't possibly cheat.) I recall you
>>>>> mentioning in another email that you had a Braille note. How 
>>>>> comfortable
>>>>> are
>>>>> you with electronic files? The professor may have  an electronic copy 
>>>>> of
>>>>> the
>>>>> test and you could load it on your Braille note and read from there on
>>>>> your
>>>>> display so you are indeed getting a copy in Braille (sort of.) For 
>>>>> these
>>>>> tests with the foreign language words, and other tests in general, 
>>>>> this
>>>>> could also iliminate the reader problems your having. I don't know if
>>>>> any
>>>>>
>>>>> of
>>>>> this would work, I'm just trying to throw out a few solutions that I 
>>>>> was
>>>>> thinking of.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley
>>>>> Bramlett
>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Justin and everyone,
>>>>> Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of
>>>>> hearing
>>>>> a reader state these words.
>>>>> No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the braille
>>>>> production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology guy 
>>>>> left.
>>>>> They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for
>>>>> this.
>>>>> Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam
>>>>> brailled
>>>>> last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to work with.
>>>>> She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument
>>>>> against
>>>>> braille was the following:
>>>>> 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read the
>>>>> exam
>>>>> with jaws.
>>>>> 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam.
>>>>> 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not
>>>>> necessary
>>>>> to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to translate 
>>>>> into
>>>>> braille because you have a means to access the exam now.
>>>>>
>>>>> It was a pr exam btw.
>>>>> So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough
>>>>> time.
>>>>> She would make the same arguments I believe.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: justin williams
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM
>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations
>>>>>
>>>>> At this point, why not.  Not a bad idea.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne
>>>>> Germano
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations
>>>>>
>>>>> Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow 
>>>>> along
>>>>> with
>>>>> the reader?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman <
>>>>> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out
>>>>>> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if
>>>>>> the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow 
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be
>>>>>> willing to work something out with you that's fair.
>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to
>>>>>>> use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step
>>>>>>> out of their office.
>>>>>>> I  don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their
>>>>>>> private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated
>>>>>>> testing room in the building where the class is, or you could go to
>>>>>>> the professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is
>>>>>>> around to ensure you don't cheat.
>>>>>>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who
>>>>>>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I
>>>>>>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my
>>>>>>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will
>>>>>>> help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you
>>>>>>> might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're
>>>>>>> not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has
>>>>>>> control over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors
>>>>>>> give their entire classes online exams. That's their right as
>>>>>>> professors
>>>>> to do.
>>>>>>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader,
>>>>>>> or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other
>>>>>>> accommodations, that's their decision to make.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Arielle,
>>>>>>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me
>>>>>>>> arrange for
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam.
>>>>>>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this
>>>>>>>> violates school
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> policy.
>>>>>>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers
>>>>>>>> for exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they
>>>>>>>> take the exam and how does the professor ensure that you did not
>>>>>>>> cheat then?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM
>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their
>>>>>>>> office.
>>>>>>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired
>>>>>>>> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement
>>>>>>>> you worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has
>>>>>>>> authority if you give it to them by asking to take the test in 
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>> office.
>>>>>>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the
>>>>>>>> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite
>>>>>>>> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically not
>>>>>>>> quite in line with school policy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>> Ashley Bramlett
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Arielle,
>>>>>>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree
>>>>>>>>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing
>>>>>>>>> certificate. The class
>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> need a competent reader for is religion.
>>>>>>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college.
>>>>>>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers.
>>>>>> Gosh.
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and
>>>>>>>>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me
>>>>>>>>> to do this.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and
>>>>>>>>> looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a reader
>>>>>>>>> to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the
>>>>>>>>> option
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA.
>>>>>>>>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower
>>>>>>>>> grade using bad readers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can
>>>>>>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most
>>>>>>>>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced
>>>>>>>>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material
>>>>>>>>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they
>>>>>>>>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing
>>>>>>>>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting
>>>>>>>>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a community
>>>>>>>>> college, maybe the professor could read it for you and scribe your
>>>>>>>>> answers during office hours the day before the test or some such?
>>>>>>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for
>>>>>>>>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some
>>>>>>>>> disability services offices frown on this practice because they
>>>>>>>>> prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an option
>>>>>>>>> that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who might 
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>> care much.
>>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano <sgermano at asu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the
>>>>>>>>>> person
>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> chem major and an A student.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And
>>>>>>>>>> then you interview them by having them read to you.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between
>>>>>>>>>>> colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always provided me
>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>> competent
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words
>>>>>>>>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud.  I hope I don't
>>>>>>>>>>> run into the same problem you are dealing with right now and my
>>>>>>>>>>> next college.
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett"
>>>>>>>>>>> <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations
>>>>>>>>>>>> you get.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do
>>>>>>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs?
>>>>>>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a
>>>>>>>>>>>> scantron,
>>>>>>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my
>>>>>>>>>>>> readers were
>>>>>>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower
>>>>>>>>>>> and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly
>>>>>>>>>>> and read fast
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took
>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>> jaws
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can
>>>>>> directly
>>>>>>>>>>> mark
>>>>>>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I 
>>>>>>>>>>> missed.
>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another 
>>>>>>>>>>>> message.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> Do you have a case through vocational rehab? If you have a rehab 
> counselor, you should be able to make a case for that if you really need 
> it… But they are incredibly expensive. My suggestion, if you like reading 
> things in braille, is to use one of the popular notetakers, like a braille 
> note or braille sense, because then you can read electronic files in 
> braille without all the extra headache of putting it on paper.

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