[nabs-l] the test accomodations

Tue Apr 30 06:54:43 UTC 2013

Oh, nope. What happened was I accidentally changed my iPhone cursor so it wrote everything at the very bottom of the thread… I will give you a proper reply off list tomorrow.

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 30, 2013, at 12:52 AM, Helga Schreiber <helga.schreiber at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Hey! Kirt, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I cant't read what you send me as a reply with JAWS. For some reason JAWS is not reading your message. Only says send from my Iphone. Probably you send me a picture of the message instead. Hope you get this. Thanks and God bless!! :)
> 
> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 2:35 AM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Apr 30, 2013, at 12:12 AM, Helga Schreiber <helga.schreiber at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Hey! Kirt, this is Helga. I'm sorry for asking this dumb question. What do you mean when you say use a TA as a test reader? I'm just curious what the word TA mean? I actually never heard of the word abrebiation. Also, I just would like to ask you, Do you know where can I get a Dux Bury program and a Braille printer that is compatibel with the BrailleNote apex for a cheap price? The Reason I'm asking is because I like to read Braille because is my prefer way of reading especially when I'm reading stories that are hard to understand the wording. I'm actually doing an English major where I need to take Literature classes that involve a lot of reading. Actually, this semester I took American Literature before 1865, and it was very challenging for me because the only accessable format of the Book  that DSS provided me was PDF format, and and I got a audio cd from Learning Ally. It was helpful, but not enough to understand the stories since my first Language is not English, even though I speak it, I'm still working on my comprehension of words. I also talked to my DBS counceler about this and she told me that she would not buy me the Braille printer because is very expensive. I really Think a Braille paper copy of a reading will really help me a lot since I'm thinking in taking American Literature after 1865 in the Fall semester. Thanks for listening to me. I really appreciate it. God bless! :)
>> -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:31 AM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations
>> 
>> In my experience, it's totally depended on the professor.  Some have
>> offered to read me the test in their offices, most have recommended I
>> use a TA as a test reader (I know that's not an option for you), some
>> have preferred to let DSS handle all those logistics even though it's
>> often meant they get my exam significantly later than the other
>> students'.  Since this is entirely the professor's decision, I've
>> always made an effort to meet my professors as soon as I practically
>> could and keep in constant touch throughout the semester.  Usually,
>> though not always, this has worked well for me.
>> 
>> On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> One more thing.
>>> I've beaten this to death probably. While I would like the idea of doing it
>>> in the professor's office with a reader or my notetaker,
>>> this would be challenging. The professor leaves campus after her finals. She
>>> would have to stay after finals to sit and supervise me.
>>> I know because she told me after administering the final, she would go to
>>> the testing center to pick my final up.
>>> 
>>> That said, maybe we can work something fair out. Again, I'm glad to hear
>>> professors work with you all directly for these situations.
>>> Its been my experience that they assume I'm going to the testing center
>>> except for small quizzes.
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Ashley Bramlett
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 1:15 AM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations
>>> 
>>> Hello Kirt,
>>> Thanks. I am not dismissing these ideas. Please understand the bind I'm in.
>>> What happened was the professor told me to take it in the testing center.
>>> She told me to request a scribe and reader
>>> I did so. The dss counselor told me she would not find a reader who could
>>> meet my needs; that readers were based on availability. I'm now concerned
>>> that they cannot read the exam and this will hinder my grade.
>>> I can certainly ask if the reader can read it in her office. Yes, come to
>>> think of it. my counselor never demanded I take it in the testing center,
>>> but implied that was the way it was done for exams.
>>> 
>>> I do like your idea of having the reader in the professor's office so in
>>> case we run into problems, she can jump in.
>>> Other staff and a TA are not options; it’s a community college; she is the
>>> only full time professor in that department.
>>> 
>>> I'll see what I can work out with the school, if anything.
>>> Ashley
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Kirt Manwaring
>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 9:32 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations
>>> 
>>> Ashley,
>>> I think you'll understand by now that I don't mean to be rude or
>>> snobbish; subtlety just isn't my thing.  That being said, I hope
>>> you'll take my bluntness for what it is; it's just my way of
>>> expressing myself, and I don't mean you any personal insult by it.
>>> Even so, I think I've seen three or four people, at least, who have
>>> already answered the question you just asked me, multiple times.  Even
>>> though this has been said over and over again already, professors are
>>> generally flexible and willing to work with us...at least that's been
>>> my experience, thus far.  You could see if this professors' department
>>> has a spare office aid, secretary, receptionist...even departments
>>> without teaching assistants usually have some sort of auxiliary staff
>>> on hand and, from my experience, some of these people can be very
>>> helpful, especially if your professor is asking them.  Also, you could
>>> maybe work out a compromise position between doing everything with DSS
>>> and doing it all with your professor directly.  What I mean is that
>>> you could see if the professor would let you take the test during her
>>> office hours and in her office, with a reader provided by DSS.  That
>>> way, the professor would be there to help with any pronunciation
>>> issues, but she would still be free to do whatever other work she
>>> needed to.
>>> Honestly, when I approach my professors about tests, I usually say
>>> something like "I'm more than willing to do this with DSS but if you'd
>>> prefer to work directly with me I usually like that better."
>>> Oftentimes, I've had professors volunteer themselves as
>>> readers/scribes, especially for simple and straightforward tests;
>>> also, like I said, even without TAs your professor might have someone
>>> who could help.  You'll never know if you don't ask.
>>> 
>>> On 4/29/13, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I was a teaching assistant for a large introductory psychology course
>>>> a few years ago, and was on the other side of the accommodations issue
>>>> getting disability letters from students who needed extended time or a
>>>> distraction-free environment for testing. I would send these letters
>>>> to the instructor who supervised me and he always said he hated
>>>> working with disability services and much preferred to work out the
>>>> testing "in-house" between him/me and the student. So I would have
>>>> students take exams in my office instead of using the testing center
>>>> because it was less hassle for the instructor that way. If instructors
>>>> have to go through disability services, they have to prepare their
>>>> tests early and they also have to often grade the test after everyone
>>>> else's because they don't get it from disability services until later.
>>>> I agree that a Braille Note could be a really good compromise between
>>>> using a Braille test and using a reader. The prof could give you a
>>>> text file, you could fill it out on your Braille Note and then turn it
>>>> back in at the same time as all other students. As others have stated,
>>>> professors may or may not allow this but the only way to find out is
>>>> to ask. I used my Braille Note for testing for four semesters and I
>>>> think in that time only one professor insisted I use DSS instead of
>>>> using my Braille Note.
>>>> 
>>>> Arielle
>>>> 
>>>> On 4/29/13, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>> Kirt,
>>>>> okay; then how do you take the exam? with your own laptop? If not, how do
>>>>> you read the exam?
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Kirt
>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 6:22 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ashley,
>>>>> It might be worth checking if your professor will let you take the test
>>>>> outside of the testing center. If your relationship with her is as good
>>>>> as
>>>>> you say it is, what would be the harm in asking, at the very least?
>>>>> Incidentally, many of my professors have recommended that I take their
>>>>> test
>>>>> 
>>>>> outside of the testing center, even if that's where the rest of the class
>>>>> takes it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:57 PM, "Lillie Pennington"
>>>>> <lilliepennington at fuse.net>
>>>>> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ashley,
>>>>>> Are you going to be taking classes after this semester? You may want to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> thinking in the long term of how your going to be fixing these types of
>>>>>> problems. For example, if your taking another class like this where you
>>>>>> may
>>>>>> want a Braille copy, how do you plan to get it? Would you be willing to
>>>>>> pay
>>>>>> with your own money for a Braille test? You could look into getting your
>>>>>> tests transcribed somehow. You could talk to your future professors
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> this (you'd probably have to make arrangements for them to somehow send
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> test off to make sure that you couldn't possibly cheat.) I recall you
>>>>>> mentioning in another email that you had a Braille note. How comfortable
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> you with electronic files? The professor may have  an electronic copy of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> test and you could load it on your Braille note and read from there on
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> display so you are indeed getting a copy in Braille (sort of.) For these
>>>>>> tests with the foreign language words, and other tests in general, this
>>>>>> could also iliminate the reader problems your having. I don't know if
>>>>>> any
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> this would work, I'm just trying to throw out a few solutions that I was
>>>>>> thinking of.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley
>>>>>> Bramlett
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 3:57 PM
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Justin and everyone,
>>>>>> Oh how I'd love a braille copy. that would eliminate this problem of
>>>>>> hearing
>>>>>> a reader state these words.
>>>>>> No, they will not provide braille. They have no one to run the braille
>>>>>> production anymore; I don't know what the assistive technology guy left.
>>>>>> They would have to outsource the brailling and there is no time for
>>>>>> this.
>>>>>> Additionally, I asked my disability counselor to get another exam
>>>>>> brailled
>>>>>> last semester. She refused! As I said, she is difficult to work with.
>>>>>> She will do what is minimally required. Her response and argument
>>>>>> against
>>>>>> braille was the following:
>>>>>> 1. The college is only required to provide access and you can read the
>>>>>> exam
>>>>>> with jaws.
>>>>>> 2. You are not entitled to your prefered format of an exam.
>>>>>> 3. No one is available to braille your exam in-house and it is not
>>>>>> necessary
>>>>>> to braille this exam. We won't pay for the outsourcing to translate into
>>>>>> braille because you have a means to access the exam now.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It was a pr exam btw.
>>>>>> So, I'm sure I cannot get a brailled exam, even if there was enough
>>>>>> time.
>>>>>> She would make the same arguments I believe.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: justin williams
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 9:10 PM
>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> At this point, why not.  Not a bad idea.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne
>>>>>> Germano
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 11:51 AM
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Can they provide you a Braille copy of the test so you can follow along
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> the reader?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Arielle Silverman <
>>>>>> Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I really think you will be less stressed and happier if you cut out
>>>>>>> the DSS middleman, and just work with your professor. As a backup, if
>>>>>>> the prof is totally unwilling, you can go back to DSS and follow their
>>>>>>> rules. But you said the prof is helpful, so it's likely he'll be
>>>>>>> willing to work something out with you that's fair.
>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> What they mean is "if you take the test in our building you have to
>>>>>>>> use our readers". The DSS policies don't apply to you once you step
>>>>>>>> out of their office.
>>>>>>>> I  don't know where other blind students have taken tests with their
>>>>>>>> private readers, but I'd think you could do it in a designated
>>>>>>>> testing room in the building where the class is, or you could go to
>>>>>>>> the professor's office hours and do it there while the professor is
>>>>>>>> around to ensure you don't cheat.
>>>>>>>> If you ask the professor, they might be able to offer a reader who
>>>>>>>> works for the department, like a student worker or an assistant. I
>>>>>>>> don't know how it works in community colleges, but I know at my
>>>>>>>> university, the psych department has a huge support staff. This will
>>>>>>>> help you avoid having to pay out of pocket, though even then you
>>>>>>>> might end up sacrificing a little bit on reader quality.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Remember: the DSS policies are binding on the DSS staff, but they're
>>>>>>>> not binding on you as the student. The only one who really has
>>>>>>>> control over how you take tests is the professor. Some professors
>>>>>>>> give their entire classes online exams. That's their right as
>>>>>>>> professors
>>>>>> to do.
>>>>>>>> If the professor trusts you enough to let you use your own reader,
>>>>>>>> or to use your laptop in class, or any of a number of other
>>>>>>>> accommodations, that's their decision to make.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Arielle,
>>>>>>>>> So you're suggesting that the professor and student which is me
>>>>>>>>> arrange for
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> a private reader I hire to take the exam.
>>>>>>>>> Where would I take the exam then? I'll have to check if this
>>>>>>>>> violates school
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> policy.
>>>>>>>>> Are you saying that you know blind students using their own readers
>>>>>>>>> for exams with no objection from the professor? Where would they
>>>>>>>>> take the exam and how does the professor ensure that you did not
>>>>>>>>> cheat then?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:03 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> No, a DSS office cannot legislate what you do outside of their
>>>>>>>>> office.
>>>>>>>>> If you and the professor agree that you will use a reader you hired
>>>>>>>>> yourself, the DSS office cannot step in and veto that arrangement
>>>>>>>>> you worked out with your professor. The DSS office only has
>>>>>>>>> authority if you give it to them by asking to take the test in their
>>>>>> office.
>>>>>>>>> Hiring your own readers for testing is only a problem if the
>>>>>>>>> professor has an objection to it. Many professors are quite
>>>>>>>>> laid-back about things like that, even if they are technically not
>>>>>>>>> quite in line with school policy.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 4/26/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Sounds like a possible ADA case if it gets to far.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>>> Ashley Bramlett
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:21 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Arielle,
>>>>>>>>>> oOh, um, this is a community college. I'm finished my BA degree
>>>>>>>>>> but taking classes to further my studies and get a writing
>>>>>>>>>> certificate. The class
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> need a competent reader for is religion.
>>>>>>>>>> No a TA won't work. Also, Its community college.
>>>>>>>>>> you make it sound easy. Gee, I do wish I could get my own readers.
>>>>>>> Gosh.
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> can think of like 20 people who would be competent readers and
>>>>>>>>>> have a clue how to read such a test. But no, they don't allow me
>>>>>>>>>> to do this.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I do indeed have my own readers for studying and reading texts and
>>>>>>>>>> looking up material and research, but no I cannot bring a reader
>>>>>>>>>> to the exam. Personally, I think this is a legal
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> matter and they need to change the policy so you can have the
>>>>>>>>>> option
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> bring your own competent reader as an accomodation under the ADA.
>>>>>>>>>> Its not fair, not equal access, and can cause one to get a lower
>>>>>>>>>> grade using bad readers.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:45 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] the test accomodations
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> You can also ask the professor if the teaching assistant can
>>>>>>>>>> read/scribe your exam, if there is one for the class. Most
>>>>>>>>>> teaching assistants are graduate students or advanced
>>>>>>>>>> undergraduates in the department and should know the material
>>>>>>>>>> well, and since they're trusted employees of the professor, they
>>>>>>>>>> are trusted not to help you cheat. Plus, many TA's have nothing
>>>>>>>>>> else to do during an exam and would otherwise just be sitting
>>>>>>>>>> around. If the class has no teaching assistant, as in a community
>>>>>>>>>> college, maybe the professor could read it for you and scribe your
>>>>>>>>>> answers during office hours the day before the test or some such?
>>>>>>>>>> I know that blind students have hired their own readers for
>>>>>>>>>> testing, which allows them to pick people who are competent. Some
>>>>>>>>>> disability services offices frown on this practice because they
>>>>>>>>>> prefer to hire and manage readers themselves, but it's an option
>>>>>>>>>> that's at least worth discussing with your professor, who might not
>>>>>> care much.
>>>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/27/13, Suzanne Germano <sgermano at asu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I haven't used readers since I am a partial and use cctv but when
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> had
>>>>>>>>>>> disabled students pay for a chemistry lab aid I insisted the
>>>>>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> chem major and an A student.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> So maybe you could find your readers through the department. And
>>>>>>>>>>> then you interview them by having them read to you.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Kirt <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm in the middle of the nightmare that is transferring between
>>>>>>>>>>>> colleges, but the college I am leaving almost always provided me
>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>> competent
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> capable readers. Sure, they might pronounce a few words
>>>>>>>>>>>> incorrectly But they knew how to read out loud.  I hope I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> run into the same problem you are dealing with right now and my
>>>>>>>>>>>> next college.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2013, at 11:21 AM, "Ashley Bramlett"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As finals approach, I wanted to know what test accomodations
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you get.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do
>>>>>>>>>>>> you feel they are adaquate and meet your needs?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you need a reader and person to scribe your answers on a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> scantron,
>>>>>>>>>>>> how are they? Are they competent readers?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm going through a discriminatory situation now. Most my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> readers were
>>>>>>>>>>>> incompetent but I got around that by asking them to speak slower
>>>>>>>>>>>> and repeat things; I mean they could not speak all that clearly
>>>>>>>>>>>> and read fast
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> spoke to the paper not articulately to me. Many exams I took
>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> jaws
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> avoid this; I feel this way is slower for me and a reader can
>>>>>>> directly
>>>>>>>>>>>> mark
>>>>>>>>>>>> my answers on a scantron as well as go back to questions I missed.
>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>> need a reader scribe I should be given a competent reader.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll tell more about this specific test issue in another message.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Look forward to seeing your responses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>> om
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
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>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com Do you have a case through vocational rehab? If you have a rehab counselor, you should be able to make a case for that if you really need it… But they are incredibly expensive. My suggestion, if you like reading things in braille, is to use one of the popular notetakers, like a braille note or braille sense, because then you can read electronic files in braille without all the extra headache of putting it on paper.
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