[nabs-l] Training centers not the real world

Carly Mihalakis carlymih at comcast.net
Mon Dec 30 10:41:26 UTC 2013


Good evening, Jedi,

         Well said my blind sister! Thank you for this...
for today, Car

Jedi Moerke wrote:
>I want to start by saying amen to Sandra. As US citizens, we have a 
>greater degree of choice than most of our brothers and sisters 
>outside of the country.
>
>Second, the choice to attend a school for the blind, mainstream, go 
>to a training center, or just do it alone greatly depends on the 
>resources afforded to an individual in their own life circumstances. 
>Could I have survived without training at LCB? Yes. Am I sorry I 
>took a year out of school to attend? No. As good as my blindness 
>skills were at the time, I can honestly say that I made considerable 
>improvement while there. The problem is that we don't know what we 
>don't know and that's dangerous, especially for a blind person in 
>the competitive market. I give credit to myself and the training 
>center for my success. A training center by itself doesn't make 
>someone successful in the areas of daily living. I have seen many 
>people waste their time during training, including those I train in 
>the itinerant system, to believe otherwise is foolish.  I know that 
>training has something to offer anyone who fully engages in the 
>enterprise as my own story shows. So I really think it's a matter of 
>what resources you have and the resources you bring to blindness 
>that make a difference.
>
>As to the idea that the training center isn't the real world, one 
>could argue that any educational institution isn't the real world. 
>But that's not really what's being said here. Its the idea that 
>being in the so-called blind world  isn't the same as being in the 
>real world, otherwise known as the sighted world. I should remind 
>you that we all, the blind and sighted, live in the same world and 
>that we all experience it as reality. When you're hanging out with 
>other blind people, you're suddenly exposed to the same level of 
>privilege afforded to the sighted. I think that's a good thing 
>because then we know what equal feels like and can fight for it. 
>Likewise, we do need to know how to work around the inconveniences 
>of blindness because, like it or not, we are a minority. Neither 
>experience is more real than the other. Neither experience is 
>superior to the other. A well rounded blind person needs both if she 
>or he is going to be truly well adjusted in my opinion.
>
>Respectfully,
>Jedi
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Nov 11, 2013, at 8:56 AM, Sandra Gayer <sandragayer7 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> > I have had to read this thread, listening to people complaining about
> > having resources which are simply non-existent in England. I live here
> > and if you'd like to live here as well, I can promise you there are no
> > such things as "Light Houses" or "Blind Preschool" or, ha ha ha,
> > "Training Centres" for the blind, unless you count a couple of
> > dedicated schools for the blind which haven't been closed down yet. In
> > this country, there are gangs who specialise in guide dog bashing. I
> > remember a girl who wouldn't leave the house with her cane because
> > some people in her area found it funny to spit on her. I've never been
> > to America although I have read about the extraordinary work The NFB
> > does. If I had access to even half the things you are moaning about, I
> > would be extatic! I could go on about The NLS and how people this side
> > of the world aren't permitted access to web Braille, let alone the
> > hard copy Braille books available but I won't. I could also talk about
> > how Braille transcription is billed by the hour not the page. Come and
> > live here for a month and you'll be greatful for what you have.
> >
> > Very best wishes,
> > Sandra.
> >
> >> On 11/11/13, Joshua Hendrickson <louvins at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Hi to all.  I have been reading this thread with great interest.
> >> After I get my associates of Arts degree in January, I will be going
> >> to Icrewood in Chicago which is an in state training center to learn
> >> some indipendent living skills.  For me, I need to attend this center
> >> so I can get the skills I'll need when I leave for college.
> >> Personally I would have liked to attend an NFB training center, but it
> >> is very difficult in Illinois to get VOC. rehab to pay for out of
> >> state services.  As for schools for the blind, I was mainstreamed
> >> through my Junior year of High School then attended the school for the
> >> blind for 3 years.  Personally, I like mainstreaming a lot better.  I
> >> feel the education I received in public school was better than what I
> >> received at ISVI.  I wish I had learned algebra while at ISVI because
> >> I would have gotten my associates degree a lot quicker and not have
> >> had to take so many remedial math classes.  Like others have already
> >> stated, it is up to the individual whether to go to a center or not.
> >> I did receive some daily living skills while at the school for the
> >> blind, but since I didn't use them when I came back home, I lost them.
> >> We were never allowed to use the stove or oven unattended which to me
> >> kind of defeated the purpose of them trying to teach us to cook.
> >> Anyway have a grat day all, and there are my thoughts for whatever
> >> they may be worth.
> >>
> >>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Minh,
> >>>
> >>> I think you have a lot of great points. I wish I had been raised with
> >>> opportunities to build confidence.
> >>>
> >>> As for the research, I am excited about the paper that Arielle brought
> >>> up. When I was justifying to my state that I had the right to an
> >>> informed choice and to go to an out-of-state training center, Al
> >>> Spooner at BLIND, Inc. taught me that one success measure is whether a
> >>> graduate obtains employment or starts school within a year of
> >>> graduating from training. There are flaws to this. For example, I
> >>> think one year is a long time, and who says employment obtained is the
> >>> desired job. Plus, many people go blind as older adults, so one may
> >>> attend a training center for more daily living skills and decide later
> >>> that they don't want to work anymore. But it is a quantafiable
> >>> measure. I think that the NFB training centers have success rates
> >>> according to these  measures in the 90 percentile or higher and the
> >>> state training enter in NC had a 16% rate according to that measure.
> >>> But the paper will probably provide more insight on this.
> >>> Unfortunately there is not a lot of research like this going on, and
> >>> not a lot of good blindness-related journals to publish in.
> >>>
> >>> I would say that going to a training center does not remove you from
> >>> society. I think that is a misconception. Just as going to class takes
> >>> up time and working a job takes time, going to training during the day
> >>> does take time. And there are some field trips that were all day or
> >>> overnight, but school and work have these requirements as well. I made
> >>> friends outside the center, volunteered, and explored Minneapolis. I
> >>> did not choose to work or do an internship during training, but I
> >>> realize that could have provided another great experience. Once I
> >>> wasn't in class, my time was mine. I happened to make friends with
> >>> center students just as you would make friends with neighbors and
> >>> classmates. I didn't hang out because they were blind or because
> >>> someone told me I had to. I hung out with them, and the other sighted
> >>> people I met in Minneapolis because I met them and they were cool
> >>> people.
> >>>
> >>> The NFB training center philosophy is all encompassing. For example,
> >>> your life outside of class does give you opportunities to practice
> >>> your skills and you are expected to use your nonvisual techniques at
> >>> home and in the community. However, I don't think that this
> >>> experiential part of training meant that my time outside of class
> >>> wasn't mine, and so therefore, I feel that I was not "removed" from
> >>> society.
> >>>
> >>> I realize that statement was kind of a segue from the original topic,
> >>> but it is one that I am passionate about. I had several naysayers and
> >>> people make fun of me for going to training because they perceived it
> >>> as a time when I would be removing myself from society. But it was
> >>> just the opposite. It has allowed me to take more advantage of what
> >>> society has to offer. Someone who already possesses these skills and
> >>> confidence could then perceive this as unnecessary, but I realized
> >>> that I needed the opportunity to be successful.
> >>>
> >>> Cindy
> >>>
> >>>> On 11/10/13, minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> Arielle,
> >>>> I'm really interested in this topic. Is the paper available for
> >>>> viewing online? I would love to read it.
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Hi Min,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think you make some good points and I agree that experience is the
> >>>>> best teacher. However, I think part of what the centers do is to
> >>>>> provide opportunities for that experience. Many of us who were
> >>>>> sheltered didn't even get the chance to try things out, much less
> >>>>> learn the proper nonvisual way to do them. For example, one thing I
> >>>>> did for the first time at LCB was light candles. I had never been
> >>>>> allowed to do anything with matches before I went to LCB. My teacher
> >>>>> at LCB taught me a few tricks but mostly it was just me being required
> >>>>> to swallow my fear and strike a match and put it to the candle.
> >>>>> Through that experience I learned how to tell when the candle was lit
> >>>>> and how to put the match out safely. That said, I did have decent
> >>>>> skills before coming to the center and I think I probably could have
> >>>>> been reasonably successful without center training. But I had
> >>>>> specialized blindness training at the preschool and in-home
> >>>>> instruction in daily living skills because my parents didn't feel
> >>>>> confident enough to teach me a lot of things themselves at home. I do
> >>>>> think the center gave me a lot of confidence even if I did have skills
> >>>>> and even though I know how to learn things on my own.
> >>>>> Also, I combined my center training with a research internship, so I
> >>>>> don't feel like I put my life on hold. It was just two mornings a week
> >>>>> so it didn't interfere with classes, but it really helped my resume. I
> >>>>> probably would not have gotten the research internship if I hadn't
> >>>>> gone to the center since it was at Louisiana Tech. I know some center
> >>>>> students have a brief volunteer stint or take a college class while
> >>>>> they are at the center as part of their training. So it isn't just
> >>>>> blindness training the whole time. In addition, I had a lot of amazing
> >>>>> social experiences while I was there that I probably won't have again
> >>>>> as a working, married woman.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You also ask how success is measured. Regrettably, I think most of the
> >>>>> evidence is anecdotal. However, Dr. Bell at Louisiana Tech did
> >>>>> recently conduct a study which showed that NFB center graduates have
> >>>>> higher employment rates and earn higher incomes than those who
> >>>>> attended traditional centers or no center at all. Actually, the rates
> >>>>> were lower among traditional center grads than among those who
> >>>>> attended no center, but the rates were highest among those who
> >>>>> attended NFB centers. I have read his paper and as a researcher I
> >>>>> think the research was conducted well and with as little bias as
> >>>>> possible. However, it is impossible to tell if the center training
> >>>>> actually caused the increase in employment or if people who choose to
> >>>>> go to NFB centers have other attributes that make them more
> >>>>> employable. More rigorous research has to be done. Furthermore,
> >>>>> unemployment was still pretty high even among the NFB center
> >>>>> graduates, so NFB training doesn't completely fix the unemployment
> >>>>> problem. But it's a step in the right direction.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Best,
> >>>>> Arielle
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 11/10/13, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>>>>> Bridgit,
> >>>>>> You were lucky your parents taught you just as they taught your
> >>>>>> sisters.
> >>>>>> That is how it should be. But my experience was the opposite. I had  a
> >>>>>> two
> >>>>>> parent middle class household. My older brothers learned a little bit
> >>>>>> by
> >>>>>> observation. We never did have to do chores because my parents would
> >>>>>> rather
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> do that. But when my brothers were teens, I recall that they did do
> >>>>>> chores
> >>>>>> ocasionally. When holidays came or when we had an ocasional party or
> >>>>>> guests
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> come such as that time my aunt and cousins came, my brothers did help
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>> chores.
> >>>>>> However, my parents taught me little about housework and personal
> >>>>>> care.
> >>>>>> Did they teach me about manners and behavior? Yes.
> >>>>>> Did they teach me basic play skills? Yes. I remember my dad describing
> >>>>>> what
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> a tricycle was and how to ride it and then telling me to ride my bike
> >>>>>> with
> >>>>>> training wheels once I got that.
> >>>>>> They also told me about dinner etiquette such as placing a napkin in
> >>>>>> your
> >>>>>> lap and chew with mouth  closed.
> >>>>>> In this regard, I learned about behavior with my brothers. In fact,
> >>>>>> I've
> >>>>>> met
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> blind youth who lack this knowledge and its sad to know their parents
> >>>>>> did
> >>>>>> not expect this of them.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> But when it comes to home management skills and personal skills, my
> >>>>>> parents
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> did not do anything. Only thing is my mom did say black and blue did
> >>>>>> not
> >>>>>> go
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> together. Personal skills were taught by my vision teacher.
> >>>>>> Okay, mom did help me learn to dress myself and very basic stuff but
> >>>>>> other
> >>>>>> more advanced dressing skills were taught by my vision teacher.
> >>>>>> She taught me how to zip a coat and how to button clothes.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Many parents just do for their blind kids because its faster and less
> >>>>>> stressful.
> >>>>>> So you were quite fortunate your parents taught you.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ashley
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Bridget Walker
> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 11:57 PM
> >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Here is my take and I warn you it is strong. You talk about Jonny who
> >>>>>> has
> >>>>>> autism. Did anyone catch on to the difference in the label. The thread
> >>>>>> emphasizes this "we as blind people" thing and I know we have had this
> >>>>>> talk
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> are we really going to put a disability first? This is just me I was
> >>>>>> born
> >>>>>> with sight  but lost it very early on in life. I actually don't
> >>>>>> remember
> >>>>>> much from when I had bits of vision and I'm not totally blind but
> >>>>>> pretty
> >>>>>> close.
> >>>>>> So how do I know what I do? My parents taught me just as they taught
> >>>>>> my
> >>>>>> sisters who are sighted and I understood everything. Did it take me
> >>>>>> longer?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sometimes yes but, for me I did not have to do anything different.
> >>>>>> That's not to say I did not go to a training center or a school for
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> blind.
> >>>>>> I went to a center for two five week programs when my vision was
> >>>>>> getting
> >>>>>> worse in my youth. I needed to gain ONM and tech skills. I also needed
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>> learn to cook. As a college student I still fail lol.
> >>>>>> Finally I went to a school for the blind for two years of high school.
> >>>>>> That
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> had nothing to do with my inability to reach expectations  but my
> >>>>>> public
> >>>>>> school gave up. I was classified as having a visual processing
> >>>>>> learning
> >>>>>> disability rather then being blind.
> >>>>>> That bit about schools for the blind being for multiple disabled
> >>>>>> students
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> not true. I was in a setting where students were working to state
> >>>>>> standards.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I spent two years there and was able to do work back at my public
> >>>>>> school
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> graduate with the mainstream students. Lets face it I never really
> >>>>>> really
> >>>>>> left.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:48 PM, "RJ Sandefur"
> >>>>>> <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind
> >>>>>>> people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real
> >>>>>>> world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has
> >>>>>>> autism
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> aschool for autistic kids!
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty
> >>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity:
> >>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on
> >>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Cindy Bennett
> >>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students
> >>>
> >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington
> >>> clb5590 at gmail.com
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>
> >>
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> >
> >
> > --
> > Soprano Singer
> > www.sandragayer.com
> >
> > Broadcast Presenter
> >
> > www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html
> >
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