[nabs-l] Training centers not the real world

Mon Dec 30 17:58:44 UTC 2013

Also, to add to what Miso said, by dumbing down the accessibility
stuff so students do not have to advocate for their needs in a school
for the blind, they are less prepared to do so in a college setting.
I credit my self-advocay skills as they are today to my time in the
public school system.  It wasn't perfect, and we had some hairy IEP
meetings a few times, but I got to college with experience in asking
for materials in advance, planning with teachers, and communicating
with teachers and my braillist to get the materials done.  I think
what happens to a lot of students who go to schools for the blind is
that they're so used to having their materials just handed to them
without accessibility issues, so when they get to college they think
they are entitled to those materials without asking for them.

I also know a girl who went to a school for the blind and had issues
when she got to college because she refused to do any work that was
not given to her in braille format.  With all the electronics used in
alternative formats these days, I'm sure most college students on here
can imagine how much work was missed.  Expecting everything to be in
braille once you leave a school for the blind is not realistic, and if
that is what schools for the blind are doing they're actually doing a
great disservice to their students.  I am all for them teaching
braille literacy, but submitting electronic assignments and using the
computer to get your work done is just part of the college experience
for most of us, and it needs to be taught before college.

For those in high school, here is some food for thought.  Half way
through my junior year I started asking for most of my materials from
my high school teachers, and in my senior year I was in charge of
getting everything from them.  This involved checking in with each one
of them every week to see what we were doing in the next week.  Tests
needed even more preplanning.  I was responsible for delivering all
work that needed to be transcribed to my braillist on my lunch breaks
or before I left the building at the end of the day.  Most of the time
she gave me braille because that was what she was used to doing, (I
had her from the 1st to 4th grades as an aid and braillist, and from
4th grade through high school she only brailled.  She was in a habit
of brailling everything because that was how we did it from 4th to
about 7th grade, so it stuck).  Even though she brailled a lot though,
I primarily wrote and submitted my assignments electronically, and got
feedback on my work electronically as well.  Email, dropbox, and
flashdrives will be your best friends in college, and they'll be even
easier to work with if you get used to submitting assignments in that
way early on while in high school.  Develop those self-advocacy
skills; they will serve you well.

On 12/30/13, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net> wrote:
> Good evening, Jedi,
>
>          Well said my blind sister! Thank you for this...
> for today, Car
>
> Jedi Moerke wrote:
>>I want to start by saying amen to Sandra. As US citizens, we have a
>>greater degree of choice than most of our brothers and sisters
>>outside of the country.
>>
>>Second, the choice to attend a school for the blind, mainstream, go
>>to a training center, or just do it alone greatly depends on the
>>resources afforded to an individual in their own life circumstances.
>>Could I have survived without training at LCB? Yes. Am I sorry I
>>took a year out of school to attend? No. As good as my blindness
>>skills were at the time, I can honestly say that I made considerable
>>improvement while there. The problem is that we don't know what we
>>don't know and that's dangerous, especially for a blind person in
>>the competitive market. I give credit to myself and the training
>>center for my success. A training center by itself doesn't make
>>someone successful in the areas of daily living. I have seen many
>>people waste their time during training, including those I train in
>>the itinerant system, to believe otherwise is foolish.  I know that
>>training has something to offer anyone who fully engages in the
>>enterprise as my own story shows. So I really think it's a matter of
>>what resources you have and the resources you bring to blindness
>>that make a difference.
>>
>>As to the idea that the training center isn't the real world, one
>>could argue that any educational institution isn't the real world.
>>But that's not really what's being said here. Its the idea that
>>being in the so-called blind world  isn't the same as being in the
>>real world, otherwise known as the sighted world. I should remind
>>you that we all, the blind and sighted, live in the same world and
>>that we all experience it as reality. When you're hanging out with
>>other blind people, you're suddenly exposed to the same level of
>>privilege afforded to the sighted. I think that's a good thing
>>because then we know what equal feels like and can fight for it.
>>Likewise, we do need to know how to work around the inconveniences
>>of blindness because, like it or not, we are a minority. Neither
>>experience is more real than the other. Neither experience is
>>superior to the other. A well rounded blind person needs both if she
>>or he is going to be truly well adjusted in my opinion.
>>
>>Respectfully,
>>Jedi
>>
>>Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> > On Nov 11, 2013, at 8:56 AM, Sandra Gayer <sandragayer7 at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > Hello,
>> > I have had to read this thread, listening to people complaining about
>> > having resources which are simply non-existent in England. I live here
>> > and if you'd like to live here as well, I can promise you there are no
>> > such things as "Light Houses" or "Blind Preschool" or, ha ha ha,
>> > "Training Centres" for the blind, unless you count a couple of
>> > dedicated schools for the blind which haven't been closed down yet. In
>> > this country, there are gangs who specialise in guide dog bashing. I
>> > remember a girl who wouldn't leave the house with her cane because
>> > some people in her area found it funny to spit on her. I've never been
>> > to America although I have read about the extraordinary work The NFB
>> > does. If I had access to even half the things you are moaning about, I
>> > would be extatic! I could go on about The NLS and how people this side
>> > of the world aren't permitted access to web Braille, let alone the
>> > hard copy Braille books available but I won't. I could also talk about
>> > how Braille transcription is billed by the hour not the page. Come and
>> > live here for a month and you'll be greatful for what you have.
>> >
>> > Very best wishes,
>> > Sandra.
>> >
>> >> On 11/11/13, Joshua Hendrickson <louvins at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> Hi to all.  I have been reading this thread with great interest.
>> >> After I get my associates of Arts degree in January, I will be going
>> >> to Icrewood in Chicago which is an in state training center to learn
>> >> some indipendent living skills.  For me, I need to attend this center
>> >> so I can get the skills I'll need when I leave for college.
>> >> Personally I would have liked to attend an NFB training center, but it
>> >> is very difficult in Illinois to get VOC. rehab to pay for out of
>> >> state services.  As for schools for the blind, I was mainstreamed
>> >> through my Junior year of High School then attended the school for the
>> >> blind for 3 years.  Personally, I like mainstreaming a lot better.  I
>> >> feel the education I received in public school was better than what I
>> >> received at ISVI.  I wish I had learned algebra while at ISVI because
>> >> I would have gotten my associates degree a lot quicker and not have
>> >> had to take so many remedial math classes.  Like others have already
>> >> stated, it is up to the individual whether to go to a center or not.
>> >> I did receive some daily living skills while at the school for the
>> >> blind, but since I didn't use them when I came back home, I lost them.
>> >> We were never allowed to use the stove or oven unattended which to me
>> >> kind of defeated the purpose of them trying to teach us to cook.
>> >> Anyway have a grat day all, and there are my thoughts for whatever
>> >> they may be worth.
>> >>
>> >>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> Minh,
>> >>>
>> >>> I think you have a lot of great points. I wish I had been raised with
>> >>> opportunities to build confidence.
>> >>>
>> >>> As for the research, I am excited about the paper that Arielle
>> >>> brought
>> >>> up. When I was justifying to my state that I had the right to an
>> >>> informed choice and to go to an out-of-state training center, Al
>> >>> Spooner at BLIND, Inc. taught me that one success measure is whether
>> >>> a
>> >>> graduate obtains employment or starts school within a year of
>> >>> graduating from training. There are flaws to this. For example, I
>> >>> think one year is a long time, and who says employment obtained is
>> >>> the
>> >>> desired job. Plus, many people go blind as older adults, so one may
>> >>> attend a training center for more daily living skills and decide
>> >>> later
>> >>> that they don't want to work anymore. But it is a quantafiable
>> >>> measure. I think that the NFB training centers have success rates
>> >>> according to these  measures in the 90 percentile or higher and the
>> >>> state training enter in NC had a 16% rate according to that measure.
>> >>> But the paper will probably provide more insight on this.
>> >>> Unfortunately there is not a lot of research like this going on, and
>> >>> not a lot of good blindness-related journals to publish in.
>> >>>
>> >>> I would say that going to a training center does not remove you from
>> >>> society. I think that is a misconception. Just as going to class
>> >>> takes
>> >>> up time and working a job takes time, going to training during the
>> >>> day
>> >>> does take time. And there are some field trips that were all day or
>> >>> overnight, but school and work have these requirements as well. I
>> >>> made
>> >>> friends outside the center, volunteered, and explored Minneapolis. I
>> >>> did not choose to work or do an internship during training, but I
>> >>> realize that could have provided another great experience. Once I
>> >>> wasn't in class, my time was mine. I happened to make friends with
>> >>> center students just as you would make friends with neighbors and
>> >>> classmates. I didn't hang out because they were blind or because
>> >>> someone told me I had to. I hung out with them, and the other sighted
>> >>> people I met in Minneapolis because I met them and they were cool
>> >>> people.
>> >>>
>> >>> The NFB training center philosophy is all encompassing. For example,
>> >>> your life outside of class does give you opportunities to practice
>> >>> your skills and you are expected to use your nonvisual techniques at
>> >>> home and in the community. However, I don't think that this
>> >>> experiential part of training meant that my time outside of class
>> >>> wasn't mine, and so therefore, I feel that I was not "removed" from
>> >>> society.
>> >>>
>> >>> I realize that statement was kind of a segue from the original topic,
>> >>> but it is one that I am passionate about. I had several naysayers and
>> >>> people make fun of me for going to training because they perceived it
>> >>> as a time when I would be removing myself from society. But it was
>> >>> just the opposite. It has allowed me to take more advantage of what
>> >>> society has to offer. Someone who already possesses these skills and
>> >>> confidence could then perceive this as unnecessary, but I realized
>> >>> that I needed the opportunity to be successful.
>> >>>
>> >>> Cindy
>> >>>
>> >>>> On 11/10/13, minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> Arielle,
>> >>>> I'm really interested in this topic. Is the paper available for
>> >>>> viewing online? I would love to read it.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> Hi Min,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I think you make some good points and I agree that experience is
>> >>>>> the
>> >>>>> best teacher. However, I think part of what the centers do is to
>> >>>>> provide opportunities for that experience. Many of us who were
>> >>>>> sheltered didn't even get the chance to try things out, much less
>> >>>>> learn the proper nonvisual way to do them. For example, one thing I
>> >>>>> did for the first time at LCB was light candles. I had never been
>> >>>>> allowed to do anything with matches before I went to LCB. My
>> >>>>> teacher
>> >>>>> at LCB taught me a few tricks but mostly it was just me being
>> >>>>> required
>> >>>>> to swallow my fear and strike a match and put it to the candle.
>> >>>>> Through that experience I learned how to tell when the candle was
>> >>>>> lit
>> >>>>> and how to put the match out safely. That said, I did have decent
>> >>>>> skills before coming to the center and I think I probably could
>> >>>>> have
>> >>>>> been reasonably successful without center training. But I had
>> >>>>> specialized blindness training at the preschool and in-home
>> >>>>> instruction in daily living skills because my parents didn't feel
>> >>>>> confident enough to teach me a lot of things themselves at home. I
>> >>>>> do
>> >>>>> think the center gave me a lot of confidence even if I did have
>> >>>>> skills
>> >>>>> and even though I know how to learn things on my own.
>> >>>>> Also, I combined my center training with a research internship, so
>> >>>>> I
>> >>>>> don't feel like I put my life on hold. It was just two mornings a
>> >>>>> week
>> >>>>> so it didn't interfere with classes, but it really helped my resume.
>> >>>>> I
>> >>>>> probably would not have gotten the research internship if I hadn't
>> >>>>> gone to the center since it was at Louisiana Tech. I know some
>> >>>>> center
>> >>>>> students have a brief volunteer stint or take a college class while
>> >>>>> they are at the center as part of their training. So it isn't just
>> >>>>> blindness training the whole time. In addition, I had a lot of
>> >>>>> amazing
>> >>>>> social experiences while I was there that I probably won't have
>> >>>>> again
>> >>>>> as a working, married woman.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> You also ask how success is measured. Regrettably, I think most of
>> >>>>> the
>> >>>>> evidence is anecdotal. However, Dr. Bell at Louisiana Tech did
>> >>>>> recently conduct a study which showed that NFB center graduates
>> >>>>> have
>> >>>>> higher employment rates and earn higher incomes than those who
>> >>>>> attended traditional centers or no center at all. Actually, the
>> >>>>> rates
>> >>>>> were lower among traditional center grads than among those who
>> >>>>> attended no center, but the rates were highest among those who
>> >>>>> attended NFB centers. I have read his paper and as a researcher I
>> >>>>> think the research was conducted well and with as little bias as
>> >>>>> possible. However, it is impossible to tell if the center training
>> >>>>> actually caused the increase in employment or if people who choose
>> >>>>> to
>> >>>>> go to NFB centers have other attributes that make them more
>> >>>>> employable. More rigorous research has to be done. Furthermore,
>> >>>>> unemployment was still pretty high even among the NFB center
>> >>>>> graduates, so NFB training doesn't completely fix the unemployment
>> >>>>> problem. But it's a step in the right direction.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Best,
>> >>>>> Arielle
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> On 11/10/13, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >>>>>> Bridgit,
>> >>>>>> You were lucky your parents taught you just as they taught your
>> >>>>>> sisters.
>> >>>>>> That is how it should be. But my experience was the opposite. I had
>> >>>>>>  a
>> >>>>>> two
>> >>>>>> parent middle class household. My older brothers learned a little
>> >>>>>> bit
>> >>>>>> by
>> >>>>>> observation. We never did have to do chores because my parents
>> >>>>>> would
>> >>>>>> rather
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> do that. But when my brothers were teens, I recall that they did
>> >>>>>> do
>> >>>>>> chores
>> >>>>>> ocasionally. When holidays came or when we had an ocasional party
>> >>>>>> or
>> >>>>>> guests
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> come such as that time my aunt and cousins came, my brothers did
>> >>>>>> help
>> >>>>>> in
>> >>>>>> chores.
>> >>>>>> However, my parents taught me little about housework and personal
>> >>>>>> care.
>> >>>>>> Did they teach me about manners and behavior? Yes.
>> >>>>>> Did they teach me basic play skills? Yes. I remember my dad
>> >>>>>> describing
>> >>>>>> what
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> a tricycle was and how to ride it and then telling me to ride my
>> >>>>>> bike
>> >>>>>> with
>> >>>>>> training wheels once I got that.
>> >>>>>> They also told me about dinner etiquette such as placing a napkin
>> >>>>>> in
>> >>>>>> your
>> >>>>>> lap and chew with mouth  closed.
>> >>>>>> In this regard, I learned about behavior with my brothers. In
>> >>>>>> fact,
>> >>>>>> I've
>> >>>>>> met
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> blind youth who lack this knowledge and its sad to know their
>> >>>>>> parents
>> >>>>>> did
>> >>>>>> not expect this of them.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> But when it comes to home management skills and personal skills,
>> >>>>>> my
>> >>>>>> parents
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> did not do anything. Only thing is my mom did say black and blue
>> >>>>>> did
>> >>>>>> not
>> >>>>>> go
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> together. Personal skills were taught by my vision teacher.
>> >>>>>> Okay, mom did help me learn to dress myself and very basic stuff
>> >>>>>> but
>> >>>>>> other
>> >>>>>> more advanced dressing skills were taught by my vision teacher.
>> >>>>>> She taught me how to zip a coat and how to button clothes.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Many parents just do for their blind kids because its faster and
>> >>>>>> less
>> >>>>>> stressful.
>> >>>>>> So you were quite fortunate your parents taught you.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Ashley
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>>>> From: Bridget Walker
>> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 11:57 PM
>> >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Here is my take and I warn you it is strong. You talk about Jonny
>> >>>>>> who
>> >>>>>> has
>> >>>>>> autism. Did anyone catch on to the difference in the label. The
>> >>>>>> thread
>> >>>>>> emphasizes this "we as blind people" thing and I know we have had
>> >>>>>> this
>> >>>>>> talk
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> are we really going to put a disability first? This is just me I
>> >>>>>> was
>> >>>>>> born
>> >>>>>> with sight  but lost it very early on in life. I actually don't
>> >>>>>> remember
>> >>>>>> much from when I had bits of vision and I'm not totally blind but
>> >>>>>> pretty
>> >>>>>> close.
>> >>>>>> So how do I know what I do? My parents taught me just as they
>> >>>>>> taught
>> >>>>>> my
>> >>>>>> sisters who are sighted and I understood everything. Did it take
>> >>>>>> me
>> >>>>>> longer?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Sometimes yes but, for me I did not have to do anything different.
>> >>>>>> That's not to say I did not go to a training center or a school
>> >>>>>> for
>> >>>>>> the
>> >>>>>> blind.
>> >>>>>> I went to a center for two five week programs when my vision was
>> >>>>>> getting
>> >>>>>> worse in my youth. I needed to gain ONM and tech skills. I also
>> >>>>>> needed
>> >>>>>> to
>> >>>>>> learn to cook. As a college student I still fail lol.
>> >>>>>> Finally I went to a school for the blind for two years of high
>> >>>>>> school.
>> >>>>>> That
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> had nothing to do with my inability to reach expectations  but my
>> >>>>>> public
>> >>>>>> school gave up. I was classified as having a visual processing
>> >>>>>> learning
>> >>>>>> disability rather then being blind.
>> >>>>>> That bit about schools for the blind being for multiple disabled
>> >>>>>> students
>> >>>>>> is
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> not true. I was in a setting where students were working to state
>> >>>>>> standards.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I spent two years there and was able to do work back at my public
>> >>>>>> school
>> >>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> graduate with the mainstream students. Lets face it I never really
>> >>>>>> really
>> >>>>>> left.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:48 PM, "RJ Sandefur"
>> >>>>>> <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send
>> >>>>>>> blind
>> >>>>>>> people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the
>> >>>>>>> real
>> >>>>>>> world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has
>> >>>>>>> autism
>> >>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> aschool for autistic kids!
>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>> >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>>>>> for
>> >>>>>>> nabs-l:
>> >>>>>>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>>>> for
>> >>>>>> nabs-l:
>> >>>>>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>> >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>>>> for
>> >>>>>> nabs-l:
>> >>>>>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>>> for
>> >>>>> nabs-l:
>> >>>>>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the
>> >>>> dusty
>> >>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity:
>> >>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on
>> >>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> nabs-l mailing list
>> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>> for
>> >>>> nabs-l:
>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Cindy Bennett
>> >>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students
>> >>>
>> >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington
>> >>> clb5590 at gmail.com
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> nabs-l mailing list
>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >>> nabs-l:
>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> nabs-l mailing list
>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >> nabs-l:
>> >>
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandragayer7%40gmail.com
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Soprano Singer
>> > www.sandragayer.com
>> >
>> > Broadcast Presenter
>> >
>> > www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > nabs-l mailing list
>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for nabs-l:
>> >
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>> >
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nabs-l mailing list
>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com
>

-- 
Kaiti