[nabs-l] Training centers not the real world

Lillie Pennington lilliepennington at fuse.net
Mon Dec 30 18:22:23 UTC 2013 

What I personally do is have my teachers email or drop box. Most assignments. Heck, one teacher gave me a flash drive with most of the assignments for the year. Of course this took meetings and discussions of what each teacher is comfortable with.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 30, 2013, at 12:58 PM, Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Also, to add to what Miso said, by dumbing down the accessibility
> stuff so students do not have to advocate for their needs in a school
> for the blind, they are less prepared to do so in a college setting.
> I credit my self-advocay skills as they are today to my time in the
> public school system.  It wasn't perfect, and we had some hairy IEP
> meetings a few times, but I got to college with experience in asking
> for materials in advance, planning with teachers, and communicating
> with teachers and my braillist to get the materials done.  I think
> what happens to a lot of students who go to schools for the blind is
> that they're so used to having their materials just handed to them
> without accessibility issues, so when they get to college they think
> they are entitled to those materials without asking for them.
> 
> I also know a girl who went to a school for the blind and had issues
> when she got to college because she refused to do any work that was
> not given to her in braille format.  With all the electronics used in
> alternative formats these days, I'm sure most college students on here
> can imagine how much work was missed.  Expecting everything to be in
> braille once you leave a school for the blind is not realistic, and if
> that is what schools for the blind are doing they're actually doing a
> great disservice to their students.  I am all for them teaching
> braille literacy, but submitting electronic assignments and using the
> computer to get your work done is just part of the college experience
> for most of us, and it needs to be taught before college.
> 
> For those in high school, here is some food for thought.  Half way
> through my junior year I started asking for most of my materials from
> my high school teachers, and in my senior year I was in charge of
> getting everything from them.  This involved checking in with each one
> of them every week to see what we were doing in the next week.  Tests
> needed even more preplanning.  I was responsible for delivering all
> work that needed to be transcribed to my braillist on my lunch breaks
> or before I left the building at the end of the day.  Most of the time
> she gave me braille because that was what she was used to doing, (I
> had her from the 1st to 4th grades as an aid and braillist, and from
> 4th grade through high school she only brailled.  She was in a habit
> of brailling everything because that was how we did it from 4th to
> about 7th grade, so it stuck).  Even though she brailled a lot though,
> I primarily wrote and submitted my assignments electronically, and got
> feedback on my work electronically as well.  Email, dropbox, and
> flashdrives will be your best friends in college, and they'll be even
> easier to work with if you get used to submitting assignments in that
> way early on while in high school.  Develop those self-advocacy
> skills; they will serve you well.
> 
>> On 12/30/13, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net> wrote:
>> Good evening, Jedi,
>> 
>>         Well said my blind sister! Thank you for this...
>> for today, Car
>> 
>> Jedi Moerke wrote:
>>> I want to start by saying amen to Sandra. As US citizens, we have a
>>> greater degree of choice than most of our brothers and sisters
>>> outside of the country.
>>> 
>>> Second, the choice to attend a school for the blind, mainstream, go
>>> to a training center, or just do it alone greatly depends on the
>>> resources afforded to an individual in their own life circumstances.
>>> Could I have survived without training at LCB? Yes. Am I sorry I
>>> took a year out of school to attend? No. As good as my blindness
>>> skills were at the time, I can honestly say that I made considerable
>>> improvement while there. The problem is that we don't know what we
>>> don't know and that's dangerous, especially for a blind person in
>>> the competitive market. I give credit to myself and the training
>>> center for my success. A training center by itself doesn't make
>>> someone successful in the areas of daily living. I have seen many
>>> people waste their time during training, including those I train in
>>> the itinerant system, to believe otherwise is foolish.  I know that
>>> training has something to offer anyone who fully engages in the
>>> enterprise as my own story shows. So I really think it's a matter of
>>> what resources you have and the resources you bring to blindness
>>> that make a difference.
>>> 
>>> As to the idea that the training center isn't the real world, one
>>> could argue that any educational institution isn't the real world.
>>> But that's not really what's being said here. Its the idea that
>>> being in the so-called blind world  isn't the same as being in the
>>> real world, otherwise known as the sighted world. I should remind
>>> you that we all, the blind and sighted, live in the same world and
>>> that we all experience it as reality. When you're hanging out with
>>> other blind people, you're suddenly exposed to the same level of
>>> privilege afforded to the sighted. I think that's a good thing
>>> because then we know what equal feels like and can fight for it.
>>> Likewise, we do need to know how to work around the inconveniences
>>> of blindness because, like it or not, we are a minority. Neither
>>> experience is more real than the other. Neither experience is
>>> superior to the other. A well rounded blind person needs both if she
>>> or he is going to be truly well adjusted in my opinion.
>>> 
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Nov 11, 2013, at 8:56 AM, Sandra Gayer <sandragayer7 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hello,
>>>> I have had to read this thread, listening to people complaining about
>>>> having resources which are simply non-existent in England. I live here
>>>> and if you'd like to live here as well, I can promise you there are no
>>>> such things as "Light Houses" or "Blind Preschool" or, ha ha ha,
>>>> "Training Centres" for the blind, unless you count a couple of
>>>> dedicated schools for the blind which haven't been closed down yet. In
>>>> this country, there are gangs who specialise in guide dog bashing. I
>>>> remember a girl who wouldn't leave the house with her cane because
>>>> some people in her area found it funny to spit on her. I've never been
>>>> to America although I have read about the extraordinary work The NFB
>>>> does. If I had access to even half the things you are moaning about, I
>>>> would be extatic! I could go on about The NLS and how people this side
>>>> of the world aren't permitted access to web Braille, let alone the
>>>> hard copy Braille books available but I won't. I could also talk about
>>>> how Braille transcription is billed by the hour not the page. Come and
>>>> live here for a month and you'll be greatful for what you have.
>>>> 
>>>> Very best wishes,
>>>> Sandra.
>>>> 
>>>>> On 11/11/13, Joshua Hendrickson <louvins at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi to all.  I have been reading this thread with great interest.
>>>>> After I get my associates of Arts degree in January, I will be going
>>>>> to Icrewood in Chicago which is an in state training center to learn
>>>>> some indipendent living skills.  For me, I need to attend this center
>>>>> so I can get the skills I'll need when I leave for college.
>>>>> Personally I would have liked to attend an NFB training center, but it
>>>>> is very difficult in Illinois to get VOC. rehab to pay for out of
>>>>> state services.  As for schools for the blind, I was mainstreamed
>>>>> through my Junior year of High School then attended the school for the
>>>>> blind for 3 years.  Personally, I like mainstreaming a lot better.  I
>>>>> feel the education I received in public school was better than what I
>>>>> received at ISVI.  I wish I had learned algebra while at ISVI because
>>>>> I would have gotten my associates degree a lot quicker and not have
>>>>> had to take so many remedial math classes.  Like others have already
>>>>> stated, it is up to the individual whether to go to a center or not.
>>>>> I did receive some daily living skills while at the school for the
>>>>> blind, but since I didn't use them when I came back home, I lost them.
>>>>> We were never allowed to use the stove or oven unattended which to me
>>>>> kind of defeated the purpose of them trying to teach us to cook.
>>>>> Anyway have a grat day all, and there are my thoughts for whatever
>>>>> they may be worth.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Minh,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I think you have a lot of great points. I wish I had been raised with
>>>>>> opportunities to build confidence.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> As for the research, I am excited about the paper that Arielle
>>>>>> brought
>>>>>> up. When I was justifying to my state that I had the right to an
>>>>>> informed choice and to go to an out-of-state training center, Al
>>>>>> Spooner at BLIND, Inc. taught me that one success measure is whether
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> graduate obtains employment or starts school within a year of
>>>>>> graduating from training. There are flaws to this. For example, I
>>>>>> think one year is a long time, and who says employment obtained is
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> desired job. Plus, many people go blind as older adults, so one may
>>>>>> attend a training center for more daily living skills and decide
>>>>>> later
>>>>>> that they don't want to work anymore. But it is a quantafiable
>>>>>> measure. I think that the NFB training centers have success rates
>>>>>> according to these  measures in the 90 percentile or higher and the
>>>>>> state training enter in NC had a 16% rate according to that measure.
>>>>>> But the paper will probably provide more insight on this.
>>>>>> Unfortunately there is not a lot of research like this going on, and
>>>>>> not a lot of good blindness-related journals to publish in.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I would say that going to a training center does not remove you from
>>>>>> society. I think that is a misconception. Just as going to class
>>>>>> takes
>>>>>> up time and working a job takes time, going to training during the
>>>>>> day
>>>>>> does take time. And there are some field trips that were all day or
>>>>>> overnight, but school and work have these requirements as well. I
>>>>>> made
>>>>>> friends outside the center, volunteered, and explored Minneapolis. I
>>>>>> did not choose to work or do an internship during training, but I
>>>>>> realize that could have provided another great experience. Once I
>>>>>> wasn't in class, my time was mine. I happened to make friends with
>>>>>> center students just as you would make friends with neighbors and
>>>>>> classmates. I didn't hang out because they were blind or because
>>>>>> someone told me I had to. I hung out with them, and the other sighted
>>>>>> people I met in Minneapolis because I met them and they were cool
>>>>>> people.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The NFB training center philosophy is all encompassing. For example,
>>>>>> your life outside of class does give you opportunities to practice
>>>>>> your skills and you are expected to use your nonvisual techniques at
>>>>>> home and in the community. However, I don't think that this
>>>>>> experiential part of training meant that my time outside of class
>>>>>> wasn't mine, and so therefore, I feel that I was not "removed" from
>>>>>> society.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I realize that statement was kind of a segue from the original topic,
>>>>>> but it is one that I am passionate about. I had several naysayers and
>>>>>> people make fun of me for going to training because they perceived it
>>>>>> as a time when I would be removing myself from society. But it was
>>>>>> just the opposite. It has allowed me to take more advantage of what
>>>>>> society has to offer. Someone who already possesses these skills and
>>>>>> confidence could then perceive this as unnecessary, but I realized
>>>>>> that I needed the opportunity to be successful.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 11/10/13, minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Arielle,
>>>>>>> I'm really interested in this topic. Is the paper available for
>>>>>>> viewing online? I would love to read it.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi Min,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I think you make some good points and I agree that experience is
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> best teacher. However, I think part of what the centers do is to
>>>>>>>> provide opportunities for that experience. Many of us who were
>>>>>>>> sheltered didn't even get the chance to try things out, much less
>>>>>>>> learn the proper nonvisual way to do them. For example, one thing I
>>>>>>>> did for the first time at LCB was light candles. I had never been
>>>>>>>> allowed to do anything with matches before I went to LCB. My
>>>>>>>> teacher
>>>>>>>> at LCB taught me a few tricks but mostly it was just me being
>>>>>>>> required
>>>>>>>> to swallow my fear and strike a match and put it to the candle.
>>>>>>>> Through that experience I learned how to tell when the candle was
>>>>>>>> lit
>>>>>>>> and how to put the match out safely. That said, I did have decent
>>>>>>>> skills before coming to the center and I think I probably could
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> been reasonably successful without center training. But I had
>>>>>>>> specialized blindness training at the preschool and in-home
>>>>>>>> instruction in daily living skills because my parents didn't feel
>>>>>>>> confident enough to teach me a lot of things themselves at home. I
>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> think the center gave me a lot of confidence even if I did have
>>>>>>>> skills
>>>>>>>> and even though I know how to learn things on my own.
>>>>>>>> Also, I combined my center training with a research internship, so
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> don't feel like I put my life on hold. It was just two mornings a
>>>>>>>> week
>>>>>>>> so it didn't interfere with classes, but it really helped my resume.
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> probably would not have gotten the research internship if I hadn't
>>>>>>>> gone to the center since it was at Louisiana Tech. I know some
>>>>>>>> center
>>>>>>>> students have a brief volunteer stint or take a college class while
>>>>>>>> they are at the center as part of their training. So it isn't just
>>>>>>>> blindness training the whole time. In addition, I had a lot of
>>>>>>>> amazing
>>>>>>>> social experiences while I was there that I probably won't have
>>>>>>>> again
>>>>>>>> as a working, married woman.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> You also ask how success is measured. Regrettably, I think most of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> evidence is anecdotal. However, Dr. Bell at Louisiana Tech did
>>>>>>>> recently conduct a study which showed that NFB center graduates
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> higher employment rates and earn higher incomes than those who
>>>>>>>> attended traditional centers or no center at all. Actually, the
>>>>>>>> rates
>>>>>>>> were lower among traditional center grads than among those who
>>>>>>>> attended no center, but the rates were highest among those who
>>>>>>>> attended NFB centers. I have read his paper and as a researcher I
>>>>>>>> think the research was conducted well and with as little bias as
>>>>>>>> possible. However, it is impossible to tell if the center training
>>>>>>>> actually caused the increase in employment or if people who choose
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> go to NFB centers have other attributes that make them more
>>>>>>>> employable. More rigorous research has to be done. Furthermore,
>>>>>>>> unemployment was still pretty high even among the NFB center
>>>>>>>> graduates, so NFB training doesn't completely fix the unemployment
>>>>>>>> problem. But it's a step in the right direction.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 11/10/13, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Bridgit,
>>>>>>>>> You were lucky your parents taught you just as they taught your
>>>>>>>>> sisters.
>>>>>>>>> That is how it should be. But my experience was the opposite. I had
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> two
>>>>>>>>> parent middle class household. My older brothers learned a little
>>>>>>>>> bit
>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>> observation. We never did have to do chores because my parents
>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> do that. But when my brothers were teens, I recall that they did
>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>> chores
>>>>>>>>> ocasionally. When holidays came or when we had an ocasional party
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> guests
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> come such as that time my aunt and cousins came, my brothers did
>>>>>>>>> help
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> chores.
>>>>>>>>> However, my parents taught me little about housework and personal
>>>>>>>>> care.
>>>>>>>>> Did they teach me about manners and behavior? Yes.
>>>>>>>>> Did they teach me basic play skills? Yes. I remember my dad
>>>>>>>>> describing
>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> a tricycle was and how to ride it and then telling me to ride my
>>>>>>>>> bike
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> training wheels once I got that.
>>>>>>>>> They also told me about dinner etiquette such as placing a napkin
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>> lap and chew with mouth  closed.
>>>>>>>>> In this regard, I learned about behavior with my brothers. In
>>>>>>>>> fact,
>>>>>>>>> I've
>>>>>>>>> met
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> blind youth who lack this knowledge and its sad to know their
>>>>>>>>> parents
>>>>>>>>> did
>>>>>>>>> not expect this of them.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> But when it comes to home management skills and personal skills,
>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>> parents
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> did not do anything. Only thing is my mom did say black and blue
>>>>>>>>> did
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> together. Personal skills were taught by my vision teacher.
>>>>>>>>> Okay, mom did help me learn to dress myself and very basic stuff
>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>> more advanced dressing skills were taught by my vision teacher.
>>>>>>>>> She taught me how to zip a coat and how to button clothes.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Many parents just do for their blind kids because its faster and
>>>>>>>>> less
>>>>>>>>> stressful.
>>>>>>>>> So you were quite fortunate your parents taught you.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Bridget Walker
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 11:57 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Here is my take and I warn you it is strong. You talk about Jonny
>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>> autism. Did anyone catch on to the difference in the label. The
>>>>>>>>> thread
>>>>>>>>> emphasizes this "we as blind people" thing and I know we have had
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> talk
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> are we really going to put a disability first? This is just me I
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> born
>>>>>>>>> with sight  but lost it very early on in life. I actually don't
>>>>>>>>> remember
>>>>>>>>> much from when I had bits of vision and I'm not totally blind but
>>>>>>>>> pretty
>>>>>>>>> close.
>>>>>>>>> So how do I know what I do? My parents taught me just as they
>>>>>>>>> taught
>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>> sisters who are sighted and I understood everything. Did it take
>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>> longer?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Sometimes yes but, for me I did not have to do anything different.
>>>>>>>>> That's not to say I did not go to a training center or a school
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> blind.
>>>>>>>>> I went to a center for two five week programs when my vision was
>>>>>>>>> getting
>>>>>>>>> worse in my youth. I needed to gain ONM and tech skills. I also
>>>>>>>>> needed
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> learn to cook. As a college student I still fail lol.
>>>>>>>>> Finally I went to a school for the blind for two years of high
>>>>>>>>> school.
>>>>>>>>> That
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> had nothing to do with my inability to reach expectations  but my
>>>>>>>>> public
>>>>>>>>> school gave up. I was classified as having a visual processing
>>>>>>>>> learning
>>>>>>>>> disability rather then being blind.
>>>>>>>>> That bit about schools for the blind being for multiple disabled
>>>>>>>>> students
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> not true. I was in a setting where students were working to state
>>>>>>>>> standards.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I spent two years there and was able to do work back at my public
>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> graduate with the mainstream students. Lets face it I never really
>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>> left.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:48 PM, "RJ Sandefur"
>>>>>>>>> <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send
>>>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>>>> people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the
>>>>>>>>>> real
>>>>>>>>>> world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has
>>>>>>>>>> autism
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> aschool for autistic kids!
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the
>>>>>>> dusty
>>>>>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity:
>>>>>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on
>>>>>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Cindy Bennett
>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington
>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Soprano Singer
>>>> www.sandragayer.com
>>>> 
>>>> Broadcast Presenter
>>>> 
>>>> www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html
>>>> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
> Kaiti
> 
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