[nabs-l] Access to movies and public transit: was Re: netflixsays "no" to audio description

Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. freethaught at gmail.com
Thu Jul 18 03:00:01 UTC 2013 

Hi all

I realize I have cluttered the list for the past few days. I will take some of these NFB policy discussions over to the NFB-Talk list so students can get to the business of reading on topic messages.

See you there.

Antonio

On Jul 17, 2013, at 10:02 PM, Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. <freethaught at gmail.com> wrote:

> Melissa and others,
> 
> While educational and job-related access to technology should get priority, I don't see anything wrong with addressing entertainment, and other secondary issues as an organization.
> 
> This discussion actually perpetuates the idea that the national Federation of the blind is not friendly to descriptive video access.
> 
> We are willing to sweep the descriptive video access issue under the rug, and ignore it as a "nice to have", even annoying feature, but not very important.
> 
> There are certain issues that the AND Nfb does not address that deserve the utmost attention.
> 
> When was the last resolution regarding public transportation proposed, and past? We are a member organization, and I am a member. I could very well bring this up at any point, but, I can't imagine that we, employment – focused people haven't given mass transit the priority it deserves.
> 
> Here is an area of interest to all, and a good opportunity to collaborate with other organizations to improve mass transit.
> 
> Here we have a division for car enthusiasts, but no attention to Independent, efficient, and accessible mobility in big cities throughout the country.
> 
> It amazes me that no small group out of the 50,000 strong membership hasn't thought of a useful policy in public transit.
> 
> The quiet car issue does come to mind when I think of it. but I guess we don't want to get involved in the debates regarding audible cross signals, and truncated domes all over again.
> 
> So here's to the big city and public transit,
> 
> Antonio
> 
> On Jul 16, 2013, at 9:01 PM, melissa Green <lissa1531 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> right on Arielle.
>> I completely agree with you.
>> I loved the DVS discriptive vidio service and I also love the listings of tv 
>> programs, and the fact that it mentions audio description.
>> But there are more important things that we need to focus on, like the 
>> keosks that aren't accessible.
>> 
>> Blessings,
>> Melissa Green and PJ
>> facebook Melissa R Green
>> Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674
>> skype: lissa5674
>> Goodreads Melissa Green
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 8:04 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] netflixsays "no" to audio description
>> 
>> 
>> I agree it would be easy enough to get Netflix content described, but
>> I wouldn't rank it high on my own priority list. For me the biggest
>> battles we fight should revolve around education, employment and
>> access to health and safety information. The NFB has gone after
>> accessibility cases before, but most were directly related to
>> educational or job-related content, like inaccessible Kindles being
>> used in classrooms and inaccessible Google apps. I suppose the Target
>> lawsuit was an exception, and so I wasn't totally in agreement with
>> that one, unless someone could convince me that making Target.com
>> accessible would help more people get jobs. I love online shopping,
>> but just don't think it's as important as these other things.
>> I also have mixed feelings about audio description itself. There are
>> times when it is helpful, but it can also be distracting and alter the
>> mood of a movie or show. For example, when I watched the Sound of
>> Music in described format, I was annoyed by the narrators cutting into
>> all my favorite songs. Sometimes I wonder if I would enjoy
>> action-adventure films more if they were described, but then again I'm
>> not sure how much fight scenes would interest me even if I knew
>> exactly what was happening. Finally, audio description does no good if
>> the television, DVD player or Netflix program doesn't have accessible
>> controls. Many modern televisions don't have accessible menus, so I'm
>> not sure how easily a blind person can turn audio description on and
>> off without sighted help even if it was available. To me, going to all
>> the trouble of making something described and then playing it on an
>> inaccessible device totally nullifies any benefits of the audio
>> description, and this ends up wasting the time and money of the folks
>> who made it described in the first place. So I'd like to see us press
>> on with initiatives that will make user electronics accessible before
>> we worry too much about audio-describing the content.
>> 
>> Arielle
>> 
>> On 7/15/13, Jedi Moerke <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>>> That's a very interesting argument in favor of captioning for the deaf. I
>>> wonder why we couldn't use it for descriptions  for the blind?
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Jul 15, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Mary Fernandez <trillian551 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> All,
>>>> First and foremost, Dan is of course right, litigation is the very
>>>> last options which the NFB, as well as most sensible people, resort
>>>> to. Legal battles are slow, cumbersome, and take up a lot of
>>>> resources, both human and economical. It is true that the NFB has won
>>>> some essential battles in the courtroom, but I can assure you that
>>>> those battles have come after we have tried talking, advocating,
>>>> negotiation, protesting with no tangible results. And those cases that
>>>> do go to court, are cases based on rights that are available to
>>>> everyone else, and which are so ubiquitous, that it is unreasonable to
>>>> just sit back and accept that thats the way the world works for blind
>>>> people. That we will be excluded from programs, services and
>>>> activities which the sighted world can enjoy, and that there's nothing
>>>> we can do about it. It is every American's right to resort to the
>>>> justice system when their civil rights are being violated.
>>>> Joshua, as far as the ADA and Netflicks...  The ADA covers places,
>>>> programs and services of public accommodations. So for instance, any
>>>> member of the public can go to a restaurant, thus, a restaurant must
>>>> be physically accessible to disabled Americans. The issue of web
>>>> accessibility is complex and is a very young work in public. Thus far,
>>>> most successful web accessibility and technology lawsuits, have been
>>>> successful on the premisce that this web service has a physical
>>>> equivalent. A good example ofthis are websites for retail stores. If
>>>> you can walk into Target and buy a shirt, you should be able to go
>>>> online and buy a shirt. Netflix is a private enterprise, and there
>>>> really isn't a physical equivalent to a movie which offers additional
>>>> accessibility. There was a Netflix caption lawsuit which was
>>>> successful because we had some brilliant lawyers argue, that ones home
>>>> is a place of public accommodation, and that Netflix is so ubiquitous
>>>> in every home, that one should be able to fully access that service.
>>>> That's the very watered down version of the argument. So the short
>>>> answer is that no, DOJ has not issued any kind of mandate which says
>>>> that movies must have descriptive audio. The only setting for which
>>>> that would be an argument which falls under ADA is in an educational
>>>> setting, where the visual is a mandatory part of the curriculum.
>>>> Thanks.
>>>> Mary
>>>> 
>>>> On 7/15/13, Melissa Hambleton <nightfury19 at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>> My boyfriend, who is 33 years old (same as me) and he is sighted, has
>>>>> said
>>>>> time and time again how it would be nice that Netflix would have
>>>>> description
>>>>> 
>>>>> on their movies. When we watch DVDs my boyfriend always looks for the
>>>>> description feature and he even appreciates it sometimes because every
>>>>> now
>>>>> and again, the narrator will say something that my boyfriend didn't
>>>>> notice
>>>>> on the TV screen.
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Dan Burke" <dburke at cocenter.org>
>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 2:30 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] netflixsays "no" to audio description
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Greetings,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I would concur with Steve's comments adding that in every case where 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> NFB
>>>>>> has filed suit, it has thoroughly exhausted all the advocacy avenues
>>>>>> available.  Thus, there are many things that move successfully ahead
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> strong advocacy and never get to the stage of a lawsuit. You can see
>>>>>> some
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the positive results with companies on this year's convention agenda,
>>>>>> such
>>>>>> as Desire 2 Learn; and those in other presentations such as Pearson
>>>>>> Online.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Steve
>>>>>> Jacobson
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 12:01 PM
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] netflixsays "no" to audio description
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Valerie,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> One has to be careful not to attribute every message on an NFB list to
>>>>>> necessarily be the policy or even the thinking of the NFB.
>>>>>> For one thing, I'm not at all certain that there is a law under which 
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> sue
>>>>>> in this case.  Also, our treasury isn't exactly
>>>>>> bottomless so we have to prioritize
>>>>>> where to spend money and what the liklihood is of getting a positive
>>>>>> result.
>>>>>> We are really pretty careful regarding the legal
>>>>>> action we undertake.  There are times when legal action is the only
>>>>>> available course of action, but there has to be a pretty clear
>>>>>> law or precedence upon which to base such action.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 10:53:16 -0600, Valerie Gibson wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think one of the problems with the NFB is our reputation for being
>>>>>>> "sue
>>>>>> happy".
>>>>>>> And with the last email, I see where we get that rep, seeing as it was
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>> first response to something like this.  In the link,
>>>>>> it seems that only one netflix representative was spoken to. Why not
>>>>>> ask,
>>>>>> via email or phone, if there is anyone to which one can
>>>>>> speak to figure out how you can colaborate to making netflix movies
>>>>>> descriptive.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> My personal opinion, you're not going to get much headway with this.
>>>>>>> This
>>>>>> issue doesn't affect all blind people, and so not all
>>>>>> blind people are going to be on board with this.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> As some may know, i'm interested in becoming a certified dog trainer,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>> one could argue that that doesn't affect all blind
>>>>>> people. owever it is a potential job prospect, which affects income, 
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> jobs and income are not the same as the ability to have
>>>>>> descriptive movies.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Furthermore, not all blind people like movies in descriptive and find
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>> destracting.  Depending on the movie, i am one such
>>>>>> person, so my thoughts here could be a little bias.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Would it be nice for just the option to watch movies in descriptive?
>>>>>>> sure.
>>>>>> But i think before we jump to "let's sue them", we
>>>>>> should at least do something more passive.  A petition perhaps?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Just my thoughts.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Jul 15, 2013, at 10:13 AM, The weird writer
>>>>>>> <weirdwriter9891 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Netflix says "no" to audio description. why?
>>>>>> http://netflixproject.wordpress.com/2013/07/15/netflix-says-no-to-audio-
>>>>>> description/
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> om
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Mary Fernandez
>>>> "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will
>>>> forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them
>>>> feel."
>>>> —
>>>> Maya Angelou
>>>> 
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>>> 
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