[nabs-l] Cane as an ID

Fri Mar 15 07:31:35 UTC 2013

Hi again all,

Ashley, very well said.  I got exactly where you were coming from on
all of that, so I absolutely concur!

Mike, I do agree that those stupid terms "Hierarchy of sight," and all
that are... well... stupid as you said.  (I guess I was brought up to
be extremely independent as in my 19 years I have never even heard
those terms until tonight, but I laughed when I looked them up).  No
wonder there is all this misunderstanding with things like that
floating around.  Good grief!
You are right that vision is not always indicative of travel skills,
but it depends on the individual person, what their O-&-M training has
been like, how comfortable they are with travel, if they are secure
enough to not let pride or fear of social stigma get in the way of
them using a cane when they need it, etc.  You're right; some people
are certainly better at all these components of travel and have higher
levels of blindness-related self-esteem than others.  It is
unfortunate that these things have made terminology such an issue for
those partials who don't milk the blind card for what it's worth and
then go back to pretending they're sighted.

Arielle, The person I know has just one of the telescopic canes since
she can easily put it in her purse.  It's the smallest and most
light-weight option available so for her since she rarely uses it it's
the most feasible and convenient option I guess.  But, I may not fully
understand it either as although I have a model that is commonly used
as a stand-alone identity cane I actually use it because I like how
light it is.

I know the initial poster mentioned in Germany they do have pins or
some sort of symbol people wear as their identification, but I'm not
sure how that would go down in the NFB community if it were to be
introduced since the cane, Identity or functional in model, is the
symbol of blindness that has been established.  I think that was the
point of establishing the identity cane concept.

Speaking of German stuff  and canes, if you ever have a chance to
check one out you should do so.  The one I've seen is pretty awesome
and I wish we could get them here without paying extra for ordering
overseas.

On 3/14/13, Robert A Hansen <mrbobprinter2012 at gmail.com> wrote:
> The word blind has many meanings.  Too mny for me to count.
>
> Robert H
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from Samsung tabletMike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:Ashley:
>
> I think most of us (blind or partially-sighted) walk in familiar areas
> without a cane. Certainly I don't use one around the house. (grin)
>
> I suspect many Federationists would be less critical of "visually impaired"
> and like terms were people not to use such terms as a mechanism to avoid
> their considering themselves blind -- something most of us *do* consider
> crucial for good adjustment. But your descriptions below are valid and I
> have no argument with them. Oh yes -- if we could also get rid of both the
> saying that "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king" and the
> hierarchy of sight that most people believe in that is the wellspring of
> that statement, we'd also be less suspicious that alternative descriptions
> of visual problems are euphemisms.
>
> Incidentally, how well one travels doesn't necessarily indicate how much one
> sees.
>
> Mike Freeman
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett
> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 7:34 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cane as an ID
>
> Kaiti,
> I understand where you are coming from. I always have my regular folding
> cane handy when out alone.
> As someone with functional vision, I also like the term visually impaired or
>
> low vision.
> I think I use it since I grew up with it and sort of adopted it as part of
> my identity.
> It wasn't til I met Federationists that I found everyone using the term
> blind; Nfb people do not distinguish those with some sight from totals. I
> understand why; but at the same time, it seems odd because someone who
> functions visually for some tasks well will use it in life and therefore may
>
> have some different needs than a totally  blind person. Of course, those
> with visual impairments should learn nonvisual techniques unless their
> vision is always efficient and reliable. But in addition to nonvisual
> methods, they will certainly use vision.
>
> I do not walk outside on campus without a cane; its too unpredictable with
> steps, bumps, and curves. But, I would walk  inside the dorm and some
> buildings either without a cane or just carrying it. It seemed faster to do
> this for me and not be concerned with the cane's arc and hitting someone.
> Just as you explained, I feel that walking without a cane for a short
> predictable distance
> doesn't say anything about my adjustment to blindness. I'm comfortable with
> my visual condition and will talk about it if needed or educate people. It
> doesn't mean I'm hiding the condition or anything. I know some low vision
> people who are embarrassed to use canes, so I can see why the totally blind
> people who spoke up would think that. But this is not the case for all
> legally blind people.
>
> As for the terms, I think people
> know the difference between sight and vision. So, I don't see why that would
>
> play into your argument.
> For Josh, saying blind makes sense.
> But I'd have to say that downplaying other terms seems a bit far to me.
>
> I think those of us with vision have to balance when to use it and what
> tools to use. If we make a knowledgable and informed choice, we are well off
>
> and hopefully compete well. I don't have enough vision to walk much without
> a cane or simply hold an ID cane. So for me, a regular cane is in my tool
> box, but for someone else who is just on the threshhold of legal blindness,
> they may choose a ID cane.
>
> Ashley
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kaiti Shelton
> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 10:08 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cane as an ID
>
> Josh,
>
> I don't believe I was on the list at the time of those posts, but
> besides that, in my last post I mentioned my reasoning behind using
> the term visually impaired.  Your logic works for you and is accurate;
> you are totally blind so there is no question about terminology.
> However, for those of us with some functional sight visually impaired
> is a more accurate descriptor (see my last email for examples why).
> I'm sure most people are smart enough to separate the tow meanings of
> the word vision; obviously sight has no bearing on one's ability to
> form a vision of what they want to do or become in the future, but
> they are two separate things.
>
> All I'm asking is for a little more consideration of the perspectives
> of people with varying degrees of sight and the reasons for why they
> choose to do the things they do.  Just because these choices and their
> needs might be different from someone who is totally blind that
> doesn't make them wrong.
>
> Arielle, I may not be the best person to shed light on this as I use
> my telescopic as a cane too, but I went to a Voc Rehab program for my
> state with a girl who had an identity cane but visually didn't need to
> use it much.  She would carry it with her to let people know, but her
> vision was stable and good enough that she could read slightly
> enlarged print, (and I believe she got a provisional drivers license
> she can use as long as it's not dark or too bright outside too).  I
> guess it goes back to just letting people know; she was very willing
> to discuss her vision with people if asked and identified herself as a
> visually impaired person, but functionally she had enough sight where
> using a cane in most circumstances would have just been something she
> didn't need.
>
> On 3/14/13, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> I guess I'm not quite getting what the advantage is of an ID cane over
>> a regular one? With either cane, you are telling the world that you
>> are blind (or visually impaired or whatever term you want to use). The
>> ID cane gives you less tactile info than the regular one does. I
>> totally understand that sometimes you might not need a cane to get
>> around, but if you're going to use an ID cane anyway, why not just use
>> the regular one and get a little extra tactile info too? It might not
>> be necessary but it can't possibly hurt you to use a regular cane
>> instead of an ID cane. Is there some way an ID cane is more convenient
>> to use than a regular white cane?
>> I agree that sometimes it is more convenient to not use a cane at all
>> because it keeps your hands free. In those cases maybe wearing some
>> kind of ID symbol would better help with making sure others around you
>> know you are blind. However I think those situations where you really
>> need both of your hands are pretty unusual.
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 3/14/13, Joshua Lester <JLester8462 at pccua.edu> wrote:
>>> Kaiti:
>>> Did you read my posts about "Visually Impaired, Vs. Blind?"
>>> Basicly for me, I'd rather refer to myself as blind, (I'm totally blind,)
>>> but I'm not "visually impaired."
>>> There's a difference between sight, and vision.
>>> I've talked about that alot on these lists.
>>> Sight, is natural, (what we lack,) but vision is inward.
>>> If we didn't have vision, there would be no NFB.
>>> Vision is like this.
>>> "Where do you see yourself, in the next 5 years?"
>>> Using that logic, our vision isn't impaired, but our sight is.
>>> Let's just refer to ourselves as blind and get it over with.
>>> Good point Mike!
>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti Shelton
>>> [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 2:49 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cane as an ID
>>>
>>> Absolutely on that front.  There is no point of interacting with
>>> people under false pretenses as if you were sighted... If one is
>>> worried about social situations due to people thinking they're blind,
>>> then they might want to think about the possible awkward situation of
>>> a friend suddenly finding out about something that important that was
>>> there all along and kept from them.
>>>
>>> On 3/14/13, Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Mike, that is not how it works at all and I really have a problem with
>>>> the incinuation that people who identify themselves as visually
>>>> impaired use that title to get special treatment.  I use my functional
>>>> vision as well as a cane when I feel it appropriate, and receive
>>>> accomodations such as braille, electronic format for textbooks, and
>>>> assistive technology that I need.  I do what I can independently and
>>>> ask for sighted assistance when I need something read or would like a
>>>> little clarification on something visual that I cannot see.  These are
>>>> not "special perks" as you put it.  My personal choice to use VI over
>>>> blind is that it makes things easier for people to understand.  I have
>>>> had some situations when I have used the term blind and people assume
>>>> I can't see anything at all.  This has lead to well-intended but
>>>> unnecessary superhelping and other consequences.  For me it's much
>>>> simpler to say I'm visually impaired, indicating that I have some
>>>> functional vision and giving sighted people a slightly clearer idea
>>>> about me.  The NFB recognizes these terms "blind, legally blind,
>>>> visually impaired," as interchangeable, so it all comes down to
>>>> personal choice.  There is nothing that says one term is preferential
>>>> over the other and has to be used by everyone.  Afterall, visual
>>>> impairment is a continuum with varying degrees of blindness, so for
>>>> some visually impaired is a more accurate descriptor.
>>>>
>>>> I think that even if the original poster is slightly preoccupied with
>>>> the image of being blind then getting an identity cane might be the
>>>> first step in correcting that.  The more people see it, the more he'll
>>>> have to answer questions about himself and his visual impairment and
>>>> get used to it.  Not all, but some visually impaired people have to
>>>> psychologically ease into being comfortable with identifying
>>>> themselves in this way and that shouldn't be held against them if
>>>> that's what they have to do.  Heck, I've even heard partially sighted
>>>> people speak at state conventions about how they grew more comfortable
>>>> with their blindness by beginning to associate themselves with the
>>>> NFB, so it sounds like the poster may be on the right track.  Again,
>>>> we don't really know the situation; any one of us could be reading
>>>> something that the poster didn't intentionally mean because that is a
>>>> side-effect of electronic messages... things often get misconstrued.
>>>> He never said he didn't want to be identified as blind in order to
>>>> gain priveledges; he just wanted something to let people know, but he
>>>> still has enough functional vision to walk without a cane.  I think
>>>> the wording about walking perfectly may be a little presumptuous, (no
>>>> one, blind or sighted, walks exactly perfectly because it's
>>>> anatomically impossible), but like I said this might be a good step in
>>>> putting blindness/visual impairment/whatever you'd like to call it
>>>> into perspective.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 3/13/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Just use whatever works.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Aleeha
>>>>> Dudley
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 1:29 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cane as an ID
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess I just don't see the problem with allowing people to interact
>>>>> with
>>>>> you as though you are sighted. If for some reason, you can't see that
>>>>> interaction, then tell them you are blind.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/13/13, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Our fine line is that we are trying to predict, and or control
>>>>>> people's reactions.  If you do not have a cane with you while walking
>>>>>> in our country, people probably will not know you are blind.  The
>>>>>> original poster has every right to not use a cane and rely on
>>>>>> functional vision. However, the reactions of people can't be
>>>>>> controlled.  If they don't know he is blind, they will react to him as
>>>>>> if he is sighted.  It is his choice.  In America, I don't think we
>>>>>> have a way to not carry a cane, but have everyone know that you are
>>>>>> blind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Aleeha
>>>>>> Dudley
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 12:43 PM
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cane as an ID
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>      I'm going to stick my "oar in" as they say. Kaiti and Mike, I
>>>>>> think there may be a bit of misunderstanding. I think what is sought
>>>>>> by the original poster on this thread is an identification symbol,
>>>>>> something to say "I am blind" that is not as bulky as a cane. I
>>>>>> definitely disagree with this. What I do not disagree with is using
>>>>>> one's functional vision when you have it and, if that be your desire,
>>>>>> to not use a cane if you don't need it.
>>>>>> What I do disagree with is the concept of wanting the "you poor blind
>>>>>> person" perks of blindness without carrying a cane, as the original
>>>>>> poster seems to want. There is a fine line that I think is lost in the
>>>>> grey here.
>>>>>> ALeeha
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/14/13, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Kaiti:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We shall have to agree to disagree. I see no reason to identify as
>>>>>>> "visually impaired" unless one wishes special help or perks. Why not
>>>>>>> just be blind and have done with the matter? Much simpler.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In fact, I know a guy who was nearly totally blind for many years due
>>>>>>> to an explosion. He got a good deal of sight back (he's lost it again
>>>>>>> now) and used his sight to look around, traveling with a cane as he
>>>>>>> always did; thus, he got the benefit of sight plus didn't have to
>>>>>>> worry about when he should or should not use a cane, whether to
>>>>>>> identify etc. etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peace!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti
>>>>>>> Shelton
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 10:32 PM
>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cane as an ID
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have to disagree here.  As one of those partials who elects when to
>>>>>>> use and not use a cane, I have a perspective on the issue that you
>>>>>>> may not be considering.  Electing when and when not to use a cane is
>>>>>>> not always related to a person being insecure with their blindness;
>>>>>>> some of the most secure people I know don't use canes all the time.
>>>>>>> Furthermore, I don't think people who choose to walk familiar areas
>>>>>>> without a cane some times should give up their right to identify
>>>>>>> themself as a visually impaired person.  E.G, I would never do any
>>>>>>> type of pedestrian travel without a cane or think about crossing a
>>>>>>> street without one, and using one at times when I really can't see
>>>>>>> like at night or when it's very bright are no brainers, but under
>>>>>>> normal conditions when I'm walking from my dorm to the cafeteria
>>>>>>> right across the little street which has no traffic at all and I'm
>>>>>>> coming right back I don't always choose to actively use it.  My
>>>>>>> choice to not use a cane in this instance does not mean I should
>>>>>>> forfit my right to identify myself as a visually impaired person
>>>>>>> because I am; the use of the cane does not change my inability to
>>>>>>> read print or to see great distances and it does not change the fact
>>>>>>> that I am legally blind and am identified that way.  It also doesn't
>>>>>>> change the level of security I have with my blindness; if a person
>>>>>>> refuses to use a cane or fights against it because they're afraid of
>>>>>>> the social implications then that is insecurity, but if they're
>>>>>>> visually having a good day and want to run a quick errand that's in a
>>>>>>> very familiar area with minimal travel or risk of injury and they're
>>>>>>> confident in their ability to use audio cues and the vision they have
>>>>>>> then that is their choice and doesn't make them insecure with
>>>>>>> themself or their blindness.  As long as they have the confidence and
>>>>>>> security to not be afraid of using it and to identify and use it when
>>>>>>> they need to, to be confident and secure whether they're using a cane
>>>>>>> or not,  and  don't pose risk to themselves in the cases where they
>>>>>>> don't use it there is nothing that would suggest insecurity.  We
>>>>>>> don't know the exact visual situation of anyone on this list unless
>>>>>>> they've written about it, so I don't think it is fair to judge about
>>>>>>> someone's level of security with their blindness based on their cane
>>>>>>> habits when we don't know what their vision is like.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Identity canes have saved me from many embarrassing social
>>>>>>> situations.
>>>>>>>  Of course when you use it it is a more obvious indicator, but I've
>>>>>>> had situations when I've been sitting in a classroom or cafeteria
>>>>>>> with my cane on my desk and someone will try to get my attention
>>>>>>> using something besides my name.  When they see the cane (or
>>>>>>> sometimes read National Federation of the Blind on it if they're
>>>>>>> close enough to see
>>>>>>> it) they understand why I might not recognize that they're referring
>>>>>>> to me and they'll get my attention in a more obvious way before
>>>>>>> getting my name.  Sometimes they ask about the cane which gives me an
>>>>>>> opportunity to casually explain my vision in simple terms and then
>>>>>>> the person and I can carry on with the conversation because they're
>>>>>>> informed and they see that it's not a big deal.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And, I have to make one small correction.  The main market for the
>>>>>>> lighter, more compact canes is the precise group of people who may
>>>>>>> not use it all the time, and the NFB is obviously aware of this since
>>>>>>> they are the ones who originated the telescopic design.  Although I
>>>>>>> do know people who are totally blind or only have light perception
>>>>>>> that use the telescopic canes they tend to tear through them pretty
>>>>>>> quickly because they use them so much.  For someone who may not use
>>>>>>> the cane every single day but still would benefit from having an
>>>>>>> identifier to let other people know they're visually impaired these
>>>>>>> canes
>>>>> are great.
>>>>>>>  Think of it this way; it would be impractical for someone with mild
>>>>>>> hearing loss to always use a hearing aid even when they didn't need
>>>>>>> one.  Similarly, if visually a partial is having a good day and can
>>>>>>> see well enough to successfully travel, dodging obstacles and not
>>>>>>> tripping over anything, then it isn't always necessary to use a cane.
>>>>>>> In fact, the correction I really want to make is that choosing to
>>>>>>> have an identity cane on-hand is actually a sign of security in my
>>>>>>> eyes because even if that person may not need to use it by having one
>>>>>>> for people to see they must be okay with their blindness and
>>>>>>> comfortable in explaining their visual impairment to others should
>>>>>>> the question arise.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 3/13/13, christopher nusbaum <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Amen, Mike! Yes, the king can be used as an identification tool to
>>>>>>>> alert drivers that you are blind. However, this can be a positive
>>>>>>>> thing and not a negative one. This is at least true if you use that
>>>>>>>> identification tool of the cane as a symbol of independence and not
>>>>>>>> of inferiority.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Chris Nusbaum
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 13, 2013, at 8:33 PM, Mike Freeman <k7uij at panix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hamid:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> With all due respect, it seems to me you're trying to have your
>>>>>>>>> cake and eat it, too. ON the one hand, you want all the advantages
>>>>>>>>> of being recognized as blind whereas on the other, you don't want
>>>>>>>>> to really appear blind or be judged because you do not believe you
>>>>>>>>> need a cane. My friend, you can't have it both ways. Why do you
>>>>>>>>> even care whether the public considers you blind or not or whether
>>>>>>>>> they consider it weird that you might appear to not need a cane?
>>>>>>>>> Moreover, aren't you under the tacit assumption that blind persons
>>>>>>>>> who use canes travel sufficiently awkwardly that the public knows
>>>>>>>>> them as blind whereas you consider that you do not?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Seems to me you have some soul-searching to do.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We do not have a "blind" id other than the long white cane and most
>>>>>>>>> of us would not *want* such a label. It's a short step from such a
>>>>>>>>> label to being prohibited from going places or doing things because
>>>>>>>>> of the alleged inability of the blind.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Grab that white cane, display and use it proudly!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mike Freeman
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hamid
>>>>>>>>> Hamraz
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 3:40 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Cane as an ID
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear Folks,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It is a couple of months I have been investigating a way to
>>>>>>>>> represent my blindness without making a functional use of cane. To
>>>>>>>>> be more precise, the target people benefiting are those whose
>>>>>>>>> residual sight lets them to walk without the use of a cane and who
>>>>>>>>> want to let the other people around them know about their
>>>>>>>>> blindness.
>>>>>>>>> Carrying a cane is indeed an option.
>>>>>>>>> However,
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> personally think that holding a long cane in my hand without using
>>>>>>>>> it and walking perfectly is weird in public. In Germany, they have
>>>>>>>>> a special symbol representing this which can be attached anywhere
>>>>>>>>> in any size at one's own discretion (and everybody is indeed aware
>>>>>>>>> of that). However, there is no such a thing here in US, and setting
>>>>>>>>> that up requires time and educating the society about that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My question here is what type of cane I should look for? I need
>>>>>>>>> something much smaller just to serve as an ID rather than a
>>>>>>>>> functional tool. I appreciate any suggestion.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hamid
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.c
>>>>>>>>> o
>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40
>>>>>>> g
>>>>>>> mail.c
>>>>>>> om
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104
>>>>>>> %
>>>>>>> 40gmai
>>>>>>> l.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Kaiti
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blindcowgirl1993%
>>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>> 0gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4
>>>>>> 0gmail
>>>>>> .com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blindcowgirl1993%4
>>>>>> 0gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail
>>>>> .com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai
> l.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Kaiti
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Kaiti
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai
> l.com
>>
>
>
> --
> Kaiti
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.
> net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mrbobprinter2012%40gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com
>

-- 
Kaiti