[nabs-l] requesting some advice about choosing a college science class for next semester

Tue May 21 14:59:13 UTC 2013

There have been some very sound suggestions given on this topic. Congrats to
everyone.

I want to bring up a couple of things to be aware of if you don't get
satisfactory results after going up the chain of command, as wisely
suggested by your peers.

First, the ADA requires that your school appoints an ADA/Section 504
Coordinator. Their job is to oversee compliance. Sometimes this is the DS
office, which is not a good model - it's in fact a conflict of interest.  In
any case, The ADA/Section 504 Coordinator is supposed to have identified an
Alternative Dispute Resolution process.  This should be just what it sounds
like - something short of filing a formal complaint, and that can be
resolved in a relatively short period of time.  All this info should be
accessible on your school's web site.

In addition, your school's Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action officer may
have a formal on-campus complaint process.  Again, this is short of filing
something with the Office of Civil Rights (OCR).

My suggestion is that if you strike out a couple of more times, say all the
way to the Dean's office, consider two concurrent lines of action: 1) find
out what these on-campus processes are and whom to contact; and 2) contact
your state NFB president for support.

BTW, someone mentioned Gary Vermeij in an early post on this list, as an
example of a blind scientist. Dr. Vermeij studies both living and fossilized
shells and is also a past recipient of a MacArthur genius grant.  I
recommend two readings by him.  The first would be good for your geology
professor as well.  It is an old American Scholar article entitled
"Listening to a Tide Pool."  The second reading, maybe a fun summer read, is
Dr. Vermeij's memoir, Privileged Hands. NLS offered it in web Braille, and
it may be available in audio and on Bookshare.

Best of luck and stay strong!

Dan

----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua
Hendrickson
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 8:12 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] requesting some advice about choosing a college
science class for next semester

Hello to all.  I want to thank all of you for your great suggestions.
I will let you all know how my meeting turns ut.  I know what you mean
when you talk about teachers who are willing to work with you to get
the most from their class.  My math teacher last semester was really
good, he had no problems with me taking dvd's outside the class and
completing the needed questions at home.  He even did the tests with
me orally so I had no problems there.  I had great tutoring for the
math homework so it wasn't hard for me to figure out the needed
concepts.  Thanks again all.

On 5/20/13, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh, and is it possible for you to get the geology professor's contact
> info and email or call him up yourself? Just tell him you're signed up
> for his class and that you want to know about textbooks assigned and
> the syllabus. If he doesn't answer you, or if he writes you an email
> stating he doesn't want you in his class, that's more evidence you've
> got.
> Arielle
>
> On 5/20/13, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> President Maurer talked about the Arizona case on last year's
>> presidential report. The student's name is Sebastian Ibanez and I
>> believe it was some kind of counseling psychology class, so I'm not
>> sure what the issues were. Sebastian is an old friend of mine but
>> we've lost contact, so I don't know more than that.
>> I don't think it's discriminatory for a professor to share concerns
>> with a blind student about accommodation problems. It is
>> discriminatory for a professor to refuse to communicate with a student
>> about accommodations or to forcibly drop a student from the class
>> roster. At this point it sounds like Joshua is still signed up for the
>> class, and can still attend even if the professor doesn't want him
>> there. However, if the professor is unwilling to arrange necessary
>> accommodations, or pressures Joshua into dropping the class, I believe
>> that is still discriminatory behavior.
>> Several years ago Stacy Cervenka, an old NABS member, talked about her
>> experience taking a horseback riding class. She had a professor who
>> bullied her, made rude comments to her in front of classmates, and
>> strongly pressured her to drop. Stacy was very lucky that her DSS
>> office is headed by a Federationist, who took prompt action to protect
>> Stacy's right to remain in the class without harassment.
>> So yes, discrimination in the college classroom is alive and well. We
>> should all appreciate our professors who do abide by the law, and
>> especially those who go out of their way to help us get the most out
>> of their classes. And to the few who still give us trouble, we just
>> have to keep standing up for ourselves.
>>
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 5/20/13, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> Arielle,
>>> that is  terrible. Which sort of class was this?
>>> If they need to sue the school, then nfb will go for it and make a good
>>> case.
>>> Its so sad to see and hear about this discrimination.
>>> I ran into problems finding a suitable course last semester as an
>>> elective.
>>>
>>> As you all know, the literature professor raised many concerns to me and
>>> did
>>>
>>> not want to accommodate me. He said that I could not take quizzes
>>> orally;
>>> that his videos could not be brought outside class and replicate the
>>> experience so I could get someone to describe them, and felt I would not
>>> be
>>>
>>> able to follow the discussion because he directs students to specific
>>> pages
>>>
>>> and passages to discuss points.
>>> My ideas were shot down and when I suggested he call me, he did not and
>>> I
>>> called him and politely requested he call me to discuss the class and
>>> see
>>> if
>>>
>>> we could work around his concerns. Well, I did not take the class when
>>> my
>>> dss counselor called me to say Prof C   came to her and she wanted to
>>> discuss concerns and accomodations for the class.
>>> I was very appalled he would speak to her without my consent and felt
>>> that
>>> at that point he should speak to me so we could see if it was an
>>> appropriate
>>>
>>> class for me.
>>>
>>> Another class I wanted to take was marketing, but when I found out that
>>> two
>>>
>>> professors used computer simulations as a marketing project and that was
>>> a
>>> major part of the grade, I decided not to take the class. One professor
>>> said
>>>
>>> that the simulation may be challenging for me to do and suggested I take
>>> it
>>>
>>> with other professors and gave me their names. They did not use visual
>>> online simulations! However, I could not take it with prof y and x
>>> because
>>> it did not fit my schedule.
>>> For the marketing professors, they were friendly in their corespondence,
>>> and
>>>
>>> I did not consider it discrimination. Unfortunately, I believe their
>>> concerns were legitimate and that the computer simulation would not be
>>> accessible. Furthermore, one professor raised concerns about me
>>> following
>>> her class with videos.
>>> Again, I believe such a concern was legitimate and I'm glad she was up
>>> front
>>>
>>> with her concerns and even sent me the syllabus ahead of time, even
>>> though
>>> I
>>>
>>> did not request it.
>>> It allowed me to make an informed decision regarding her class. She
>>> never
>>> said not to take it though. She  was very curteous in her responses to
>>> me.
>>> Now, that lit professor was not!
>>>
>>> Anyway, discrimination never ends and I hope this geology situation is
>>> resolved.
>>>
>>> Ashley
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Arielle Silverman
>>> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 8:18 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] requesting some advice about choosing a college
>>> science class for next semester
>>>
>>> Also, last year another blind student in Arizona was actually dropped
>>> from a class by a professor just because he is blind. I believe he is
>>> working with the NFB to sue the school. While you might or might not
>>> want to go that far, it might help to call Meghan Sidhu at the
>>> national center and just find out what's happening with that case and
>>> what arguments you can use to ensure you aren't dropped from the class
>>> without your consent.
>>>
>>> Arielle
>>>
>>> On 5/19/13, justin <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I have taken two geography courses before.  An intro class, and the one
>>>> right afterwards.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle
>>>> Silverman
>>>> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 1:29 PM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] requesting some advice about choosing a college
>>>> science class for next semester
>>>>
>>>> This professor is discriminating against you and that is unacceptable.
>>>> Your disability office should advocate for you. If they don't, then go
>>>> ahead
>>>> and talk to the chair of the geology department or an associate dean or
>>>> dean
>>>> for the college. You may also be able to file an ADA complaint. While
>>>> it's
>>>> up to you how much or how long you want to fight, I think it's worth
>>>> thinking about trying to prevent this professor from discriminating
>>>> against
>>>> other students in the future.
>>>> There are many ways you can gain access to the course material,
>>>> distinguish
>>>> the rocks, etc. that don't cost the college much if anything at all. We
>>>> can
>>>> help you decide which accommodations to use but first you will need the
>>>> professor to let you into the class. You can tell the professor that
>>>> many
>>>> blind students have taken geology courses and that you have help and
>>>> support
>>>> from other blind students, so the professor won't have to research the
>>>> accommodations for you.
>>>>
>>>> Arielle
>>>>
>>>> On 5/20/13, Wasif, Zunaira <Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org> wrote:
>>>>> You have the right to fight for this class, but do you want to fight?
>>>>> You may be able to take a different class, Music Appreciation or
>>>>> something else you enjoy.  Perhaps you can discuss other options with
>>>>> your Dean.  Are you interested in this geology class?  If you really
>>>>> want to take it then go for it!
>>>>> Zunaira
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti
>>>>> Shelton
>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 12:33 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] requesting some advice about choosing a college
>>>>> science class for next semester
>>>>>
>>>>> I absolutely agree with what has been stated.  This professor has no
>>>>> right to pick and choose whether you take his class, (he can't pick
>>>>> and choose his sighted students, right?)  If this is the class you
>>>>> need to take then your disability services people need to help
>>>>> advocate for you and set the record straight with this guy.  And, if
>>>>> push comes to shove then you may need to file an ADA complaint about
>>>>> that professor, which your DS office should be able to help you with
>>>>> as
>>>> well.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the issue of textbooks, the sooner you can figure out what you need
>>>>> and get it to the appropriate people the better, be that Bookshare,
>>>>> your DS office, or somewhere else.  A few other places you might want
>>>>> to check are APH and the library of congress.  I have never taken a
>>>>> geology course before, but I know APH has published several books of
>>>>> tactile diagrams for different subjects which could get you what you
>>>>> need and save time for the DS office that they can use to work on
>>>>> otther aspects of your textbooks.  A lot of APH's books are also
>>>>> available for free loans and you could send them back when you're done
>>>>> with the class.  NLS might also have some textbooks on geology which
>>>>> you can also borrow for free.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/20/13, Jewel <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> It is not up to the professor whether or not you take a class. If you
>>>>>> sign up for the class, they are obligated to make all reasonable
>>>>> accommodations.
>>>>>> A good accommodation for this class might be an yb-class assistant
>>>>>> (provided by your school's disability iddyxe)who could describe what
>>>>>> each rock looks like. Then, when test time came, you would have to
>>>>>> remember the descriptions and also weight when appropriate, and
>>>>>> identify the rock based on information you ask for, such as what
>>>>>> color
>>>>> is it or does it have any marbling.
>>>>>> This professor is being rude and discriminatory. If you really want
>>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>>> take the geology of rocks, there is no reason you couldn't. I just
>>>>>> finished a geu-semester course in biology. The lab for the first
>>>>>> course (microbiology )was almost exclusively microscope work.
>>>>>> However,
>>>>>
>>>>>> the disability office assigned me a lab assistant and many of the
>>>>>> things that we were looking at under the microscope also had a
>>>>>> tactile
>>>>>
>>>>>> drawing. These accommodations helped me get a B in the class. What I
>>>>>> am trying to say is that if microscope work can be made accessible,
>>>>> surely so can rock geology.
>>>>>> If your disability office and the dean of sciences can't or won't
>>>>>> fight this discrimination on your behalf, you will have to fight
>>>>>> harder if you want this class. You could go to the dean of students,
>>>>>> a
>>>>>
>>>>>> local disability efficacy group if one is nearby, abd/or contact your
>>>>> NFB state president.
>>>>>> Any of these should be able to help you. The most important thing is
>>>>>> to stand up for your right to take any class you have met the
>>>>>> prerequisites for, and be ready for a fight. If things don't go
>>>>>> smoothly, you could be looking at a lawsuit.
>>>>>> Now, lets tackle the issue of books. If you know which book or books
>>>>>> you will need for next semester, great! An easy way to get the books
>>>>>> would be to send a request to Bookshare. On the Bookshare page,
>>>>>> select
>>>>>
>>>>>> Contact Us, then select Requesting a Textbook from the dtuo-down
>>>>>> menu.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tell them the book's title, author, edition, and, if you know it, its
>>>>>> ISBN. Processing a textbook request is fast, but it takes two to
>>>>>> three
>>>>>
>>>>>> months before the book will be available through Bookshare. I have
>>>>>> used this method when I knew the book far enough in advance, and the
>>>>>> books are gufg-quality scans. The only drawback is the lack of
>>>>>> alternative descriptions for pictures. Another method of obtaining
>>>>>> your books is by requesting that the disability office provide you
>>>>>> with accessible text. My disability office, for example, will take a
>>>>>> copy of the book (you have to purchase it for ugrn), and scan each
>>>>>> page with OCR, creating accessible text in a Word document. Then they
>>>>>> go over it for errors, add page numbers and headings, and sometimes
>>>>>> add alternative descriptions of pictures. Get the books to them as
>>>>>> soon as possible, because most disability offices have to process a
>>>>>> very large number of textbooks. Just be sure your disability office
>>>>> does this before you purchase the books.
>>>>>> I hope that has helped you, and I wish you the best of luck!
>>>>>> -Jewel
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 20, 2013, at 8:52 AM, Joshua Hendrickson <louvins at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Joshua T Hendrickson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello to all.  I'm glad to be a part of this list.  I am very close
>>>>>>> to getting my Associates of Arts degree.  The only class I need to
>>>>>>> take, is a geology science class with no lab.  I met with a
>>>>>>> counselor
>>>>>
>>>>>>> and I was going to take a class called Geology 206 which was all
>>>>>>> about rocks and things like that.  The Dean of The science
>>>>>>> department
>>>>>
>>>>>>> had suggested I take this class, but there is a major problem.  The
>>>>>>> teacher of this class doesn't want me to take the class.  This is
>>>>>>> extremely frustrating.  I had went to my disability support office,
>>>>>>> and asked Gloria to call the teacher and find out when I could meet
>>>>>>> with him to talk about what acomidations I would need for the
>>>>>>> upcoming class, the teacher wouldn't even talk to me on the phone.
>>>>>>> He told gloria, there would be no way I could tell the different
>>>>> rocks apart.
>>>>>>> I was going to take this same class a couple semesters before but in
>>>>>>> the summer not in the fall like I still might take this class.  Lynn
>>>>>>> who heads the disability department talked with the dean of science
>>>>>>> again, and now people are suggesting that I take an online class
>>>>>>> called geology of the solar system.  Lynn told me she thought I
>>>>>>> should take this class, because the lady who taught the class was
>>>>>>> supportive and didn't mind if I take this class.  I don't really
>>>>>>> want
>>>>>
>>>>>>> to take an online class, because I don't know how accessible it will
>>>>>>> be with jaws.  I was sent an email with a link to a page that was
>>>>>>> kind of set up like what the online course would look like, but it
>>>>>>> was very confusing.  Since there isn't much there as far as
>>>>>>> assignments, or discussion questions, its very hard for me to figure
>>>>>>> out if jaws will be able to read what needs to be read.  I'm going
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>>>> meet tomorrow with Lyn, and the teacher of this online course, to
>>>>>>> see
>>>>>
>>>>>>> if I should take this class, although, I am already registered for
>>>>>>> the lecture based geology rock class with the teacher who doesn't
>>>>>>> even want me in his class.  Also, I don't even have any accessible
>>>>>>> textbooks for either class yet, that is another concern.  Thanks for
>>>>>>> reading this message.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Kaiti
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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-- 
Joshua T Hendrickson

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